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Free Will - God's test that all mankind flunks

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by 3 Resurrections, Aug 23, 2021.

  1. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    It's never praiseworthy to disobey a command specifically to oneself from God.
     
  2. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    You say: “The regenerated elect's objective is self-interested” which would suggest Christians are doing stuff to get something for themselves. But just suppose when you decided just to humbly accept God’s undeserving charity for selfish reasons, God showers you with unbelievable wonderful gifts to the point there was nothing more to be given, with the exception of not going to heaven right away, but you have an irrevocable deed/birthright to heaven. There is nothing more to get and nothing more you can do to get more. The only “motive” you have to do good stuff is out of a huge gratitude type Love (Godly type Love). You help God’s children and potential children out of the this compelling “Love”.

    This Godly type Love is the only Love at the Love Feast in heaven, so people desiring to be “loved” for how they want others to perceive them to be, would not be happy around an unconditional unselfish Love found in heaven.

    God and Christ Love all people on earth and we show our Love for them by Loving others.

    The glory of the Prodigal son’s father is seen in the father’s steadfast, sacrificial, selfless, unconditional Love, if the young son returns or not.
     
  3. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I think Adolf Hitler had that one covered.

    Saint Steven said:
    It seems to me that any thinking human knows that incinerating another living human is not love. Even if you were brainwashed from the earliest age to believe it is love. But here we are... Go ahead and blame the victims. That would be the obvious reply, right?
     
  4. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    Wow!
    God allowed His son, whom he Loved beyond words, to go to the cross, which was a huge sacrificial Love, to help those who hated Him. Would anyone give up more to help those totally undeserving of anything? Can you come up with some greater unselfishness?
     
  5. FaithWillDo

    FaithWillDo Active Member

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    Dear 3 Resurrections,
    Yes, mankind is born spiritually "dead", but that means we do not have a relationship with God. Adam's sin broke off our relationship with God and that "death" was passed down to all his offspring:

    Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

    If our spirit were dead, we would not be physically alive. Spirit + body = a living soul. But because our spirit is alive and marred, we quickly develop a carnal nature and our carnal nature is what causes us to sin. Sin is the source of death (loss of our relationship with God).

    Once we physically die, our spirit returns to God and our body returns to dust.

    Ecc 3:18-21 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts: even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

    Because of Christ's work on the cross, He earned the power to resurrect us from the grave. For those who have been saved, they continue to have the Spirit of God which they received at the time of the Latter Rain. For those who are not saved, they will receive the same marred spirit.

    You said:
    "And you hath He QUICKENED, who were dead in trespasses and sins."

    Again, this is speaking about our relationship with God and not our actual spirit that returns to God upon our physical death.

    You said:
    Once God chooses to start that process, He will never fail to bring the entire salvation process to completion in our final glorified, eternal state.

    Man's salvation requires the Early and Latter Rain. After receiving the Early Rain we are left spiritually blind and cannot know Christ. Because of our blindness, Satan quickly deceives us into approaching Christ by "works" mixed with "faith". This is the sin that leads to death (we lose our relationship with God, no longer saved). Christ said that we can't serve two masters. Our salvation is solely based on faith. When we depart from that true pathway to salvation, we spiritually die and are "made worse than before". Paul calls this worsened spiritual condition the "Man of Sin". All Early Rain believers will remain in this fallen away condition until Christ comes to then a second time with the Latter Rain. However, in this age, Christ will only come a second time to those who have been chosen from the foundation of the world. All others will die in their sins.

    The Nation of Israel "typed" this portion of the pathway we all must follow when they tried to enter the Promised Land (salvation). Only Joshua and Caleb (types of the Elect) live through their time in the wilderness (place where Satan dwells) to cross the Jordan River (type of the Latter Rain) into the Promised Land (salvation). All others died.

    Once a fallen away believer receives the Latter Rain (Baptism of the Holy Spirit), they are born again and Christ's judgment destroys their old spiritual condition. It is replaced with the Holy Spirit. This is the start of the path that leads to the Narrow Gate to life and glorification. A chosen believer travels this path based solely on faith. Those who travel the wide path, travel it based on a mixture of "works" and faith. The Doctrine of Free Will is the most common reason why Early Rain believers mix "works" with faith.

    Once a believer receives the Latter Rain, Christ will complete the salvation process within them as you stated.

    Joe
     
  6. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Putting words into my mouth will not help your point of view on the matter, that is of course if you actually have one.

    She was not programmed to do anything as you say, she was INNOCENT (naive) the Serpent was subtle, and lied to her.
     
  7. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    God's love is not about gratitude for anything.
    And God does not love us for the sake of our gratitude.
    God loves us for the sake of our loving him, more and more deeply as we spiritually mature.
    Our response to his love and gifts should be deeper love to him.
    They wouldn't be in heaven in the first place, just as all the unrepentant would not be,
    because they would not be born again.
    The parable of the prodigal son is about God's people (sons), and a good analogy of the
    Christ-murdering Jews (Acts 7:52) who sqandered their divine inheritance as God's people,
    but would be forgiven their most atrocious crime if they "came to their senses," repented and sought the forgivensss of God.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2021
  8. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Is your Salvation based upon what you have been forgiven?
    Does what you have been Forgiven, determine how much you will love, with a Godly type Love?

    Or do you ,with your Free Will, decide to become like God at some time in your life or throughout the course of your life and express this Godly type Love you speak of?
     
  9. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    "Unselfishness" is too small a word for God's love, and is never used in the Bible to describe God or his love.
    In fact, the word itself is never used for anything in the Bible.

    Staying with Biblical terminology keeps us in the correct lane.
     
  10. Bruce Leiter

    Bruce Leiter A sinner saved by God's astounding grace and love

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    Where do you get the idea of free will without adding it to the texts? My take is that God made humans totally dependent on him and with full responsibility for all their actions. They are either slaves to Satan or God's adopted children who freely choose to serve him empowered to love him by the Holy Spirit.
     
  11. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Understand this.

    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;
    and that not of yourselves:
    it is the gift of God:

    This gift does not require a (Free Will) acceptance in order for it to be a valid gift, God does not walk around as a peddler, trying to find people who would accept His gift.
    NO, not at all, God Chooses who He would give this gift to then gives it as per. the verse above.


    Eph 2:9 Not of works,
    lest any man should boast.

    If you insist upon your Free Will playing any part in it, you then have room to boast, and I think that is exactly what I hear coming from you about your Accepting His Gift, because you could have also exercised your Free Will and refused it.


    Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship,
    created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
    which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    This last verse clearly says we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus that is
    (Born Again of His Spirit IN Christ Jesus) unto good works, (Express Godly type Love ) in the earth, because GOD has before Ordained, that we should (WOULD) walk in them.

    I do not see anywhere in these verses where your so called Free Will is ever Expressed.
     
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  12. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Sin is not a thing, in and of itself, but only in relation to good. In purest human definition it is rebellion against God, which is something God provided for but did not create. God caused it, but did not create it. God does not tempt. Sin does not proceed from God, as do all things. Evil is not created, the same sense that anything else is. We give it a status like any other thing, or at least the status of a concept; we think of it and speak of it as a principle, a force, but it is not like any other principle or force. It is a corruption of creation, a privation of good.

    This is no ordinary principle or law like 'entropy'. It does not answer to any principle except the power of God.

    God provided for sin to come, because it was necessary that it be so, in order to produce the end result for which he created all of this. But woe to the man through whom it comes. It is the ONLY thing that can truly hurt God ("bruised heel"), and that is what it took, for our sakes and to his glory.

    And no, calamity is not sin.
     
  13. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thank you for this, Clare. This has convinced me to give up the term "free will" that I have been trying to use to show I do believe in real choice, with real consequences, but not 'free' the way most seem to think it means. If I can remember to, I will use "free agency".

    Haha, almost a pun, that 'agency' implies used by something else. It helps limit the notion of 'free'!

    Again, Thank you.
     
  14. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Dead in sin. Not made alive in Christ.
     
  15. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    What do you make of this?

    Genesis 4:7 NIV
    If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”
     
  16. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    By 'dead human' I was referring to the spiritually dead —the difference between dead in sin and alive in Christ.
     
  17. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, I know. Sounds like personality. And I have to say, in my encounters with certain, uh, 'entities', it feels that way.
     
  18. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Here's what I wrote at the beginning of this interchange.
    Is spiritually dead somehow a painless state in the fire of hell? Or do you anticipate unbearable agony? (with no hope of escape) Feel the love.
     
  19. FaithWillDo

    FaithWillDo Active Member

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    Dear Mark,
    The scriptural definition of sin is "missing the mark".

    Also, God does not tempt but He did create Satan and uses him to do the tempting.

    1 Sam 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

    Judg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

    Isa 19:14 The LORD hath mingled a perverse spirit in the midst thereof: and they have caused Egypt to err in every work thereof, as a drunken man staggereth in his vomit.

    Sin does not proceed from God because God never misses His mark when He uses evil. Evil is not sin in the hands of God:

    Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

    Job 2:10 But he said to her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. We have also received good from God, and should we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

    Evil is not a physical creation. It is a spiritual creation. Evil was created within mankind and within the fallen angels.

    Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
    visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


    Good and evil are certainly included in "all things". There is nothing in existence that God did not create, either directly from His own hand or by the hands of something He created.

    You said:
    God provided for sin to come, because it was necessary that it be so, in order to produce the end result for which he created all of this. But woe to the man through whom it comes.

    I agree with those comments.

    You said:
    It is the ONLY thing that can truly hurt God ("bruised heel"), and that is what it took, for our sakes and to his glory.

    I certainly don't believe anything can hurt God. I'm not sure what you are referring to about a "bruised heel". Maybe you can show me the verse???

    God created all things and He causes all things. Nothing happens in this creation unless God is the cause behind it. He has no enemy except the ones He purposely created. God never makes mistakes or it would be a sin. He is all-powerful and none can withstand Him.

    Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

    2 Chron 20:6 and he said, Jehovah, God of our fathers, art not thou God in the heavens, and rulest thou not over all the kingdoms of the nations? And in thy hand there is power and might, and none can withstand thee.

    Joe
     
  20. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I really don't know what it will be like for them. I tend to think in terms of no time passage (not in terms of an eternally long time) but not like wham, and then it's over with. One thing I do know, is that God is perfectly just, and what they get, they deserve —no more, no less. "Quality, not quantity"? But I don't know.

    The 'no time passage' idea answers better a lot of questions for me.
     
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