Free Will - God's test that all mankind flunks

Clare73

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Yes, it is a lot of work, it is called making a rational argument and rebuttal, which, as I’ll show below, involves more than your reasoning of you said so. The “work” is examining the reasoning, its relation to the conclusion, the soundness of the reasoning, the evidence, and allowing them to lead me to a conclusion.
And this is even more work than before, but
1) it is not exegesis.

2) Nor is the word of God based in or on human rationale, philosophical analysis or historical precedent, on which you rely.

3) Nor did you do any research on Pelagius, or the philosophers in regard to "freewill," instead denying any such connection existed, when the evidence to the contrary is abundant.

4) You labor the meaning of the Greek in the word "commit," as well as Jesus' meaning in "slave" and "free," and do not address the real issue: "freedom to be sinless," and the irrefutable evidence of its impossibility; i.e., no one is actually sinless and, therefore, no one has total "freewill" as Pelagius conceives it.

So your post is non-responsive to the real issue: man's free will is limited.

"Freewill" in the sense of which it is used philosophically; i.e., "the power to execute all moral choices," is not in the NT. In fact, it is denied in the NT, where no unregenerate person is counted as righteous (sinless). Humans have only a limited free will/power (philosophically called "free agency").
And in the OT, it simply meant voluntary action, used only in reference to offering sacrifices.
Power to accomplish was not part of its meaning.

However, Pelagius used the philosophical notion of freewill as "ability/power to accomplish one's choice" in his assertion of the freewill of man as necessary for moral responsibility, which assertion is not a Biblical notion.

Man is responsible for his sin, even though he does not have the moral power to be sinless, contrary to Pelagius' assertion that man must have the power (free will) to not sin in order to be held responsible for his sin.

Only the regenerate, who by faith are counted righteous with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, are counted/credited as righteous (sinless), just as Abraham was counted/credited as righteous (sinless) by faith (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).
 
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childeye 2

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And that is not exegesis.

"Free will" in the sense of which it is used philosophically; i.e., "the power to execute all moral choices," is not in the NT. In fact, it is denied in the NT.
And in the OT, it simply meant voluntary action. Power to accomplish was not part of its meaning.

However, Pelagius used the philosophical (Aristotle Plato, Cicero) notion of "ability/power to accomplish one's choice" in his assertion of the free will of man as necessary for moral responsibility.

Pelagius' notion of power as necessary for moral responsibility is not a Biblical notion.
The NT clearly presents otherwise.
"He who sins is a slave to sin." (John 8:34; Galatians 3:22). Slaves aren't free. No one can execute a choice to be sinless.
The domain here is morality.
We are not totally morally "free," we are moral "free agents" capable of executing some moral choices freely, but not of executing all moral choices, as in the moral choice to be sinless.
This is distinct from totally free, which means capable of executing all moral choices without limitation.

Jesus continues,


"Those whom the Son sets free are free indeed." (John 8:36)
It's about sin. . .and the freedom from sin.
It's about those who sin being slaves. . .and those whom the Son sets free--not those who set themselves free--being free indeed.
It's about not being free. . .but being a slave in regard to sin, and
it's about true freedom from sin being only in the Son.
It's about those apart from the Son not being truly free.

That is the NT teaching on "free will," Plantinga not-with-standing.
It's not complicated.

Those in the Son are free indeed.
Those who are not in the Son are not free from sin.

Man's logic and manufactured human reasoning not-with-standing.

You simply do not understand NT teaching, starting with Romans 5:12-21.
It might help to point out that the term "will" already denotes the ability to make a choice when applied as the ability to reason. When we add the adjective "free", it denotes a certain kind of will that is free from something. For example, free from Coercion. In the moral/immoral decision, there is a carnal will and a spiritual will in mankind and they each reason differently. Without the Word of God there is no Light of wisdom, and a person's choices will reveal this accordingly.
 
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Clare73

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It might help to point out that the term "will" already denotes the ability to make a choice when applied as the ability to reason. When we add the adjective "free", it denotes a certain kind of will that is free from something. For example, free from Coercion. In the moral/immoral decision, there is a carnal will and a spiritual will in mankind and they each reason differently.
Without the Word of God there is no Light of wisdom, and a person's choices will reveal this accordingly.
Good point.

Keeping in mind, however, that it is not about reasoning, it is about power to choose (execute).
There still remains the absolute inability to choose to be completely sinless, even in the light of the Word of God.
Therefore, man does not have "free will" in the philosophical sense; i.e., total ability; rather he has "free agency" in the philosophical sense; i.e., an agent with capacity to make free choices, but not all free choices.
 
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NotreDame

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That's a lot of work. . .

First of all, the domain here is morality.
We are not (totally) morally "free," we are moral "free agents" capable of executing freely.

It's not about the Oxford Dictionary, it's about Greek and Roman philosophy.

Precisely, in total agreement with Oxford.
And mankind enjoys that freedom in many things, but he cannot choose to be sinless.

And that is precisely the philosophical difference between "free" and "free agent."

Precisely, "free agents" are not free in all things, only the "free" are such.
And the NT denies mankind is "free" in that regard (John 8:34-36).
Which assumption on your part the NT denies.
And which assumption is the meaning of "free" as distinct from "free agent."

Which makes him a "free agent," capable of acting freely, but not capable of choosing to be sinless.

However, it is not my logic, it is the teaching of the NT, "He who sins is a slave to sin." (John 8:34; Galatians 3:22). Slaves aren't free. No one can execute a choice to be sinless.

Because both you and Plantinga are ignoring the context of John 8:34, where Jesus continues,

"Those whom the Son sets free are free indeed."
(John 8:36)
It's about sin. . .and the freedom from sin.
It's about those who sin being slaves. . .and those whom the Son sets free--not those who set themselves free--being free indeed.
It's about not being free. . .but being a slave in regard to sin, and
it's about true freedom from sin being only in the Son.

It's about those apart from the Son not being truly free.

That is the NT teaching on "free will," Plantinga not-with-standing.
It's not complicated.

Those in the Son are free indeed.
Those who are not in the Son are not free from sin.

Man's logic and manufactured human reasoning not-with-standing.



Feel free to exegete Romans 5:12-15
being true to its context which are the following facts,
reconciling them in a consistent manner:

1) sin
"was in the world" (Romans 5:12),
2) sin being transgression of the law (
1 John 3:4), where there is no law there being no guilt of sin charged to anyone (Romans 4:15), there being no law between Adam and Moses, therefore, there being no guilt of sin (transgression) to charge to anyone (Romans 5:13), and
"nevertheless (physical) death reigned from the time of Adam to Moses over those who did not sin" (Romans 5:14),
3) so guilt of what sin was charged to them between Adam and Moses, which caused physical death to reign over them all? (see v.15, 18)


Strawman. . .no one claims "original sin" is in the Greek, just as no one claims "Trinity" is in the Greek.
But they do claim the concepts so named are both taught in the Greek.

There is nothing reasonable about it . .it contradicts, "death reigned over those who did not sin." (Romans 5:14)

And Koine Greek is a strawman. . .the scholars who translate the NIV, etc. today are as up-to-date on Koine Greek as is anyone.


the scholars who translate the NIV, etc. today are as up-to-date on Koine Greek as is anyone

So what? At best this is but a truism for the NASB, NKJV, New Living Translation, and many other translations, but this does not render the translations correct.

Indeed, the NIV doesn’t emphasize a “literal translation” but instead a “thought for thought” translation. In contrast, the NASB does emphasize a literal translation, thereby, in part, explaining the difference between the NIV and the NASB. For a list of differences, see NIV VS NASB Bible Translation: (11 Epic Differences To Know)

So what is dispositive of different interpretations? What is dispositive as to the correct, accurate, original meaning? Evidence, such as the Greek meaning of the words, context, word usage, style, etcetera.

Merely asserting one side has “scholars,” as you do and irrationally think this is evidentiary support for the NIV interpretation you find palatable, doesn’t render your view or that is the NIV as correct, accurate, the original meaning.

Evidence, such as the original Greek meaning, word usage indicating a meaning and likely use of that meaning, writing style, context, structure, is what matters.

Which you fantastically fail to rely upon. Rather, you invoke, without, apparently, any critical thought as to whether what you’ve read from the NIV is a correct interpretation of the Greek.

Feel free to exegete Romans 5:12-15
being true to its context which are the following facts,
reconciling them in a consistent manner:

Easy, for anyone who reads and speaks Greek, for anyone who does not, does a lot of research, does “a lot of work” and not merely accept what they are spoon fed by the NIV, NASB, or any other translation. Ya know, evidence matters, something absent from your posts, as you ignore the Greek meaning of words, ignore the use of metaphors, word usage, etcetera.

There are two propositions Paul is discussing. This is important to reach a proper understand of the meaning.

Paul asserts sin entered the world through one man (cf. 1 Cor. 15: 21–22). The word κόσμον (kosmon, world) focuses on humanity here, as the Greek meaning includes “inhabitants of the earth” and the one man is obviously Adam. Death (θάνατος, thanatos) is not perceived as a natural result of living in the world. Instead, it became a reality “through sin” (διὰ τῆς ἁμαρτίας, dia tēs hamartias). In addition, Paul wasn’t referring to exclusively a physical death but a spiritual death.

The phrase “all sinned” is referring to every human being personally sinned.

The verb ἁμαρτάνειν (hamartanein, to sin) doesn’t refer to people sinning as a result of inheriting a corrupt nature from Adam. Why? This Greek verb doesn’t mean “to become corrupt.”

And the verb ἁμαρτάνειν with the subject πάντες does not lend any support to your view of “the sin people committed corporately in Adam.” Why? Word usage.

“The verb refers regularly to voluntary sin people commit in their own persons (cf. 2: 12; 3: 23; see Wilckens 1978: 316–17; Käsemann 1980: 148–49; Jüngel 1963: 51–52; Fitzmyer 1993c: 417).” Thomas R. Schreiner.


Now, the contentious dialogue has been over the phrase “ἐϕʼ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον (eph’ hō pantes hēmarton)” literally “death spread to all people.”

“ἐϕʼ ᾧ” is of vital importance to a proper understanding of the meaning. The reason is two propositions are forged by “ἐϕʼ ᾧ”. Understanding ἐϕʼ ᾧ as “upon the basis of which” is consistent with the text and theology.

A proper reading of the Greek is, “On the basis of death entering the world through Adam all people sinned.” Adam’s descendants sin as result of death entering the world through Adam. I’m other words, “Our alienation and separation from God are due to Adam’s sin, and thus we sin as a result of being born into the world separated from God’s life. The notion that we are “dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph. 2: 1; cf. Eph. 2: 5; Col. 2: 13) should be interpreted similarly.”

This view, with supporting evidende, leaves no room for your flawed “original sin” view you expressed.
 
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NotreDame

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I think the poster is saying the same thing you are. We can't be righteous apart from Christ, the Word of God.

If so, then I do agree.
 
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NotreDame

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Good point.

Keeping in mind, however, that it is not about reasoning, it is about power to choose (execute).
There still remains the absolute inability to choose to be completely sinless, even in the light of the Word of God.
Therefore, man does not have "free will" in the philosophical sense; i.e., total ability; rather he has "free agency" in the philosophical sense; i.e., an agent with capacity to make free choices, but not all free choices.

Why do you persist with the nonsense “philosophical sense”? There’s not a single shred of evidence for this at all. None.
 
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childeye 2

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Good point.

Keeping in mind, however, that it is not about reasoning, it is about power to choose (execute).
There still remains the absolute inability to choose to be completely sinless, even in the light of the Word of God.
Therefore, man does not have "free will" in the philosophical sense; i.e., total ability; rather he has "free agency" in the philosophical sense; i.e., an agent with capacity to make free choices, but not all free choices.
Okay, I can see a distinction there. The term will also denotes 'desire'. But we strive for perfection, and this would explain what God means when he says His strength is perfected in our weakness. As I see it, a truly free agent is an equivocation similar in meaning to being uncommitted, or doubleminded, or as scripture says, we can't serve two masters.
 
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Clare73

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This view, with supporting evidende, leaves no room for your flawed “original sin” view you expressed.
"Original sin" is your idea, not mine.

In addition to Romans 5:12-21, you also simply don't understand Romans 5:18:
"The result of one trespass was condemnation for all men" in the first Adam.

Why do you persist with the nonsense “philosophical sense”?
There’s not a single shred of evidence for this at all. None.
Are you sure about that?

Shows how much research you did. . .

Five seconds on search produced the following on Pelagius:
Pelagius defines free will as follows: “But we say that man is always able both to sin and not to sin, so that we confess ourselves to have always a free will.” Thus, free will consists of: 1) the ability to sin (posse peccare) and 2) the ability not to sin (posse non peccare). These two abilities or powers are always equally at man's disposal."

And yet man is not free to be sinless. See post #821, above.

I recommend you consult the following:
What are the differences between free will and agency? - Quora www.quora.com
Free will vs. Free Agency - The Aquila Report theaquilareport.com
www.reformedreader.org/rbb/reisinger/gwmwfwch03.htm

Now, it's your turn to spend another 15 seconds determining if Pelagius' notion of "free will" was in agreement with the philosophers. You might start here regarding Aristotle, Plato and Cicero:
See more on plato.stanford.edu

Concerning the Foreknowledge of God and the Free Will of Man ... Cicero
So much for your evidentiary expertise. . .as well as understanding of the NT.

Lotta' heat, and no light.

How Pelagius’s philosophy of free will shaped European culture

Oops! . . .sounds like Pelagius engaged philosophy after all.
 
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Clare73

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Okay, I can see a distinction there. The term will also denotes 'desire'. But we strive for perfection, and this would explain what God means when he says His strength is perfected in our weakness. As I see it, a truly free agent is an equivocation similar in meaning to being uncommitted, or doubleminded, or as scripture says, we can't serve two masters.
Philosophically, true "free will" is the power to execute all moral choices, including the moral choice to be sinless.
The NT denies this ability/power.
The NT presents what in philosophy is called "free agency," as distinct from "free will."
The "free agent" is capable of freely making choices, but not all choices.
He cannot make the choice to be sinless, which he could if he had total "free will."
Nevertheless, in the NT he is still totally responsible for sin, even though he does not have the power to be without sin (sinless), which is total free will.

What the NT presents above is what Pelagius and fallen human reasoning deny, but which Jesus and the NT assert.
 
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Ligurian

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Are you sure about that?

Shows how much research you did. . .

Five seconds on search produced the following on Pelagius:
Pelagius defines free will as follows: “But we say that man is always able both to sin and not to sin, so that we confess ourselves to have always a free will.” Thus, free will consists of: 1) the ability to sin (posse peccare) and 2) the ability not to sin (posse non peccare). These two abilities or powers are always equally at man's disposal."

And that is contrary to Jesus, who states only those whom the Son makes free are morally free (John 8:34, John 8:36). See post #821, above.

I noticed you didn't include the 2nd of the three verses... but it's actually the lynch-pin.

John 8:34-36 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

But here's HOW that freedom happens, in the Kingdom Gospel:

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 7 If ye abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.


About that quote from Pelagius... he's right:

Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further and fell on his face and prayed, saying, O My Father, if it be possible let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt].

How Pelagius’s philosophy of free will shaped European culture
 
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Ligurian

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What the NT presents above is what Pelagius and fallen human reasoning deny, but which Jesus and the NT assert.

Not really.

Matthew 7:19-27 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in Heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work (anomia). 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these words of Mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon the rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon the rock. 26 And every one that heareth these words of Mine and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

That's free will at work... from which comes these results: Revelation 3:8-11, Revelation 17:14

Seems to me that Pelagius must have followed the Gospel of the Kingdom.
 
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SkyWriting

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Free will tends to be a subject treated as a sort of sacred cow that none dare look at disparagingly.

Isaiah 55:9 tells us, "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." So what would naturally seem to us to be a subject that we should esteem and cherish (like our option to choose), God more than likely has different thoughts than ours about it.

I propose that God offered free will choice to the originally sinless couple, simply to give an eternal display that any created being (whether angelic or human), when offered the option of choice, unless supernaturally upheld and enabled by God, will eventually and inevitably succumb to making a choice for evil, thus resulting in death and separation from God's perfection. Only God the Creator Himself can be trusted with this dangerous power of free will; One who can be counted on to NEVER default into making an evil choice with that power.

Free will handed to fallen creatures is a double-edged sword that we wield to our own destruction. It would seem that heaven, as the final purified state for us, will include the removal of all impulses to choose anything other than God's perfect will. Anything less than being totally submerged in God's will would be to live precariously at risk for another fall into sin. To be thus exposed to the possibility of another fall would not be a restful state to remain in for all eternity.

Humanity has devised pejorative terms for such a perfected state; terms such as "mindless robot", "slave", "the Borg mentality", etc.. Christ Himself was not averse to claiming total subjection to the Father's will, saying "I do always those things that please him", and "Not my will, but thine be done". Yet we do not despise Christ for voicing this total merging of His own will with that of the Father. Why should this be something repugnant when it comes to the idea of our having free will stripped from us in the final perfected state?

Because it's not stripped from us. If you ever had time with a perfect spouse? A few hours perhaps? Well, it even better than those few hours were. (25 years ago or so.)
 
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SkyWriting

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Free will tends to be a subject treated as a sort of sacred cow that none dare look at disparagingly.

Free will is required for a good relationship.
Slaves are not free to leave. They are owned and caged.
To avoid being parakeets in cages, God gave man free will to
commune with Him voluntarily. Completely naturally, this
opens up the option of turning from God. So sin is the
natural result of Free Will. But so is voluntary faith the
foundation for a good relationship.
 
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childeye 2

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Free will is required for a good relationship.
Slaves are not free to leave. They are owned and caged.
To avoid being parakeets in cages, God gave man free will to
commune with Him voluntarily. Completely naturally, this
opens up the option of turning from God. So sin is the
natural result of Free Will. But so is voluntary faith the
foundation for a good relationship.
Sure, the prodigal son needed to leave so as to learn a lesson. In that I agree with your description. But God is always trustworthy because He is God, and we shouldn't think it's our volition that has anything to do with that.

I believe that True worship is drawn out by the object of worship rather than at the creature's discretion. According to scripture, we all take God for granted in un-thankfulness, and in doing so we become vain. Elsewhere scripture says true worship is caring for the poor and seeing to the needs of widows and orphans. Seeing God is described as brotherly Love, I would say to know Him is to Love him.
 
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Clare73

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I noticed you didn't include the 2nd of the three verses... but it's actually the lynch-pin.
Thanks. . .
Not really.

Matthew 7:19-27 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in Heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work (anomia). 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these words of Mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon the rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon the rock. 26 And every one that heareth these words of Mine and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
That's free will at work... from which comes these results: Revelation 3:8-11, Revelation 17
Free will is not denied. . .totally free will is denied. . .no one is free to choose to be sinless.

You've excluded most of the NT.

The one and only gospel of the NT is repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sin and you shall be saved from God's wrath (Romans 5:9).
 
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Clare73

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So what? At best this is but a truism for the NASB, NKJV, New Living Translation, and many other translations, but this does not render the translations correct.

Indeed, the NIV doesn’t emphasize a “literal translation” but instead a “thought for thought” translation. In contrast, the NASB does emphasize a literal translation, thereby, in part, explaining the difference between the NIV and the NASB. For a list of differences, see NIV VS NASB Bible Translation: (11 Epic Differences To Know)

So what is dispositive of different interpretations? What is dispositive as to the correct, accurate, original meaning? Evidence, such as the Greek meaning of the words, context, word usage, style, etcetera.

Merely asserting one side has “scholars,” as you do and irrationally think this is evidentiary support for the NIV interpretation you find palatable, doesn’t render your view or that is the NIV as correct, accurate, the original meaning.

Evidence, such as the original Greek meaning, word usage indicating a meaning and likely use of that meaning, writing style, context, structure, is what matters.

Which you fantastically fail to rely upon. Rather, you invoke, without, apparently, any critical thought as to whether what you’ve read from the NIV is a correct interpretation of the Greek.



Easy, for anyone who reads and speaks Greek, for anyone who does not, does a lot of research, does “a lot of work” and not merely accept what they are spoon fed by the NIV, NASB, or any other translation. Ya know, evidence matters, something absent from your posts, as you ignore the Greek meaning of words, ignore the use of metaphors, word usage, etcetera.

There are two propositions Paul is discussing. This is important to reach a proper understand of the meaning.

Paul asserts sin entered the world through one man (cf. 1 Cor. 15: 21–22). The word κόσμον (kosmon, world) focuses on humanity here, as the Greek meaning includes “inhabitants of the earth” and the one man is obviously Adam.
Death (θάνατος, thanatos) is not perceived as a natural result of living in the world. Instead, it became a reality “through sin” (διὰ τῆς ἁμαρτίας, dia tēs hamartias). In addition, Paul wasn’t referring to exclusively a physical death but a spiritual death.
Nope. . .the death under discussion is physical death, as proof of their guilt of sin.
Paul is dealing only with physical death in this passage, spiritual death is not under discussion here

The issue in Romans 5:12-21 is guilt of sin which is the only cause of physical death, and was the cause of death of all those between Adam and Moses, even "those who did not sin" (Romans 5:14) because there was no law to sin against (Romans 5:13).
The phrase “all sinned” is referring to every human being personally sinned.
Nope. . . the phrase is referring to the guilt of (assigned to) all "those who did not sin" (Romans 5:14) but, nevertheless, physically died anyway because of the guilt of sin, which is the only cause of physical death (Romans 6:23).

The conclusion of Paul's argument is: "the result of one trespass was condemnation (guilt of sin) for all men" (in the first Adam)-- Romans 5:18, paralleled with
"the result of one act of obedience was righteousness for all men" (in the second Adam, Christ)--Romans 5:18-19,
in a double parallel of the imputation of the first Adam's guilt, contrasted with the imputation of the second Adam's righteousness through faith. . .just as righteousness was imputed to Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).
The verb ἁμαρτάνειν (hamartanein, to sin) doesn’t refer to people sinning as a result of inheriting a corrupt nature from Adam. Why? This Greek verb doesn’t mean “to become corrupt.”

And the verb ἁμαρτάνειν with the subject πάντες does not lend any support to your view of “the sin people committed corporately in Adam.” Why? Word usage.

“The verb refers regularly to voluntary sin people commit in their own persons (cf. 2: 12; 3: 23; see Wilckens 1978: 316–17; Käsemann 1980: 148–49; Jüngel 1963: 51–52; Fitzmyer 1993c: 417).” Thomas R. Schreiner.


Now, the contentious dialogue has been over the phrase “ἐϕʼ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον (eph’ hō pantes hēmarton)” literally “death spread to all people.”

“ἐϕʼ ᾧ” is of vital importance to a proper understanding of the meaning. The reason is two propositions are forged by “ἐϕʼ ᾧ”. Understanding ἐϕʼ ᾧ as “upon the basis of which” is consistent with the text and theology.

A proper reading of the Greek is, “On the basis of death entering the world through Adam all people sinned.” Adam’s descendants sin as result of death entering the world through Adam. I’m other words, “Our alienation and separation from God are due to Adam’s sin, and thus we sin as a result of being born into the world separated from God’s life. The notion that we are “dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph. 2: 1; cf. Eph. 2: 5; Col. 2: 13) should be interpreted similarly.”

This view, with supporting evidende, leaves no room for your flawed “original sin” view you expressed.
 
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Ligurian

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I noticed you didn't include the 2nd of the three verses... but it's actually the lynch-pin.

John 8:34-36 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

But here's HOW that freedom happens, in the Kingdom Gospel:

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 7 If ye abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.


About that quote from Pelagius... he's right:

Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further and fell on his face and prayed, saying, O My Father, if it be possible let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt].

Not really.

Matthew 7:19-27 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in Heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work (anomia). 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these words of Mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon the rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon the rock. 26 And every one that heareth these words of Mine and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

That's free will at work... from which comes these results: Revelation 3:8-11, Revelation 17:14

Seems to me that Pelagius must have followed the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Thanks. . .
Free will is not denied. . .totally free will is denied. . .no one is free to choose to be sinless.

You've excluded most of the NT.

The one and only gospel of the NT is repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sin and you shall be saved from God's wrath (Romans 5:9).

The First Gospel mentions nothing about the justification or imputation doctrines.
So... what can I do with those 13 letters that weren't even written to people like me?

I can't do doublethink = hold two opposing views at the same time.
I keep Jesus' works and words to His Discipled Apostles, and use them as my yardstick.

John 17:6 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were and Thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

The Gospel of the Kingdom commands repentance and forgiveness, regarding the Commandments given in the Sermon on the Mount... and for any other place Jesus commanded His Discipled Apostles, including the Revelation.
I take the words of the Risen Lord literally, just as I take the words and deeds quoted by Matthew and John, 1 Peter and James literally.
And I take the 10 Commandments and the Covenant of Promise literally, too... which include the Sabbath and the circumcision requirement.
I can't truncate them according to Paul, or I'd have to exclude most of the Bible.

Sabbath, a perpetual covenant
 
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Clare73

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The First Gospel mentions nothing about the justification or imputation doctrines.
So... what can I do with those 13 letters that weren't even written to people like me?
I'm afraid we have no basis for discussion.

The whole Canon is held as the word of God by orthodox Christianity, but which you do not.
Yours is not orthodox Christianity, it is rank heresy.
Sorry.

I can't do doublethink = hold two opposing views at the same time.
I keep Jesus' works and words to His Discipled Apostles, and use them as my yardstick.

John 17:6 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were and Thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

The Gospel of the Kingdom commands repentance and forgiveness, regarding the Commandments given in the Sermon on the Mount... and for any other place Jesus commanded His Discipled Apostles, including the Revelation.
I take the words of the Risen Lord literally, just as I take the words and deeds quoted by Matthew and John, 1 Peter and James literally.
And I take the 10 Commandments and the Covenant of Promise literally, too... which include the Sabbath and the circumcision requirement.
I can't truncate them according to Paul, or I'd have to exclude most of the Bibl
 
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Ligurian

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The whole Canon is held as the word of God by orthodox Christianity

The whole canon is 66 books; which
includes the Sabbath and physical circumcision,
and the Law contained in Ordinances...
And includes Galatians 2:7.
________________
Pelagius the Briton
 
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SkyWriting

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The First Gospel mentions nothing about the justification or imputation doctrines.
So... what can I do with those 13 letters that weren't even written to people like me?

I can't do doublethink = hold two opposing views at the same time.
I keep Jesus' works and words to His Discipled Apostles, and use them as my yardstick.

John 17:6 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were and Thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

The Gospel of the Kingdom commands repentance and forgiveness, regarding the Commandments given in the Sermon on the Mount... and for any other place Jesus commanded His Discipled Apostles, including the Revelation.
I take the words of the Risen Lord literally, just as I take the words and deeds quoted by Matthew and John, 1 Peter and James literally.
And I take the 10 Commandments and the Covenant of Promise literally, too... which include the Sabbath and the circumcision requirement.
I can't truncate them according to Paul, or I'd have to exclude most of the Bible.

Sabbath, a perpetual covenant

Try to retype your post without the words "Me" or "I". Good luck.
 
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