Free Will - God's test that all mankind flunks

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
4,401
1,612
43
San jacinto
✟125,805.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Only MY sins can be imputed to me as MY sinfulness...
Nah, God's just up there playing pretend justice. We sin vicariously and that sin is forgiven vicariously. We have no part in it, it's just meaningless bookkeeping.
 
Upvote 0

misput

JimD
Sep 5, 2018
1,023
382
84
Pacific, Mo.
✟152,101.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Let me register my protest to disagreeing with what Scripture teaches because it does not agree with one's reasoning, rather than seeking the error in one's reasoning to bring it into agreement with Scripture.
Let me likewise register my protest to the assumption that God's reasoning must agree with man's reasoning. Okay. . .now that's off my chest. ;)
I feel like I have been reprimanded for quoting God when He said, "come, let us reason together", : )

I can answer with something meaningful. . .and I like doing that, but I'm not sure that you're giving serious thought to what I present.
Rest assured.

Well, first of all there is Ezekiel 18:20, there is no inheritance of our forefathers' sin.
I think I brought that to your attention?

Secondly, I somewhat addressed God's mind on that issue in my post to you, #705.
Bottom line: God has shut up all men ("all" meaning Jew as well as Gentile) in sin (so) that he might have mercy on them all ("all" meaning Gentile as well as Jew). (Romans 11:32).
In my mind He did that when he created Adam with a fleshly nature.

Thirdly, as we don't inherit guilt (Ezekiel 18:20), so we don't inherit righteousness. . .both are imputed to us.
Obviously we don't inherit guilt or righteousness and righteousness is imputed to us but I do not understand why guilt needs to be imputed to us when we already have a fleshly nature that guarantees we will sin and I do not see that is what Paul is saying in Rom.5 but I do see it as a possibility.



It's about the wisdom of God in his design of
two Adam's--the second being the exact counterpart of the first,
the first unrighteous, and the second righteous,
whereby all those born of the first Adam have the guilt of one unrighteous act imputed to them, and
all those born of the second Adam have the righteousness of one righteous act imputed to them,
I am not sure if it is the wisdom of God or a misinterpretation from Clare but it does open my eyes to the possibility of the former. Thanks Clare : )
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,924
6,050
North Carolina
✟273,614.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I feel like I have been reprimanded for quoting God when He said, "come, let us reason together": )
Context: "If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land;
but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword."

Note God's "reasoning". . .any objection counts for zip. . .it's God's way or the highway.
Rest assured.
Good to know. . .because it makes sense to me without all the laboring through the apologetics required for you.
What personal doctrine are you holding on to that you fear will be unseated?
I think I brought that to your attention?
You among others. . .then it makes no sense for you to question imputation instead of inheritance, knowing inheritance actually contradicts Ezekiel 18:20.
In my mind He did that when he created Adam with a fleshly nature.
And you are attached to a belief that you fear will be unseated and, therefore, are requiring God to satisfy your personal objection to his revelation. . .not the way God works. . .ask Paul. . ."who are you O, man, to talk back to God?" "Oh, the depth (secrecy) of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord?"

So it's time to stop talking and start explaining what is not Biblical in my response to you, presenting a coherent argument from NT teaching, known as a Biblical demonstration, of what you assert.
Obviously we don't inherit guilt or righteousness and righteousness is imputed to us but I do not understand why guilt needs to be imputed to us when we already have a fleshly nature that guarantees we will sin and do not see that is what Paul is saying in Rom.5 but I do see it as a possibility.
Then it's up to you to Biblically rule out my presentation.

Imputed guilt of Adam is the reason for physical death, clearly explained by Paul in Romans 5:12-14, using as his demonstration the death of those between Adam and Moses even though they did not sin (Romans 5:14). . .they dying because the guilt of Adam was imputed to them (Romans 5:18).
"I do not understand" is not really adequate.

The ball is in your court. . .time to stop objecting/doubting and start explaining what is not Biblical in my response, as well as present your own coherent explanation from NT teaching, also known as a Biblical demonstration. What personal doctrine are you holding on to that you think will be unseated?
Feel free to exegete Romans 5, being both consistent with and relevant to Paul's teaching in Romans 5:12-21.
I am not sure if it is the wisdom of God or a misinterpretation from Clare
That explains a lot. . .
but it does open my eyes to the possibility of the former. Thanks Clare : )
You're welcome. . .eyes opened is how new understanding starts out. . .it's hard to let go old beliefs so suitable to our fancies.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

misput

JimD
Sep 5, 2018
1,023
382
84
Pacific, Mo.
✟152,101.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Context: "If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land;
but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword."

Note God's "reasoning". . .any objection counts for zip. . .it's God's way or the highway.

Good to know. . .because it makes sense to me without all the laboring through the apologetics required for you.
What personal doctrine are you holding on to that you fear will be unseated?

You among others. . .then it makes no sense for you to question imputation instead of inheritance, knowing inheritance actually contradicts Ezekiel 18:20.

And you are attached to something that you fear will be unseated, requiring God to satisfy your personal objection to his revelation. . .not the way God works. . .ask Paul. . ."who are you O, man, to talk back to God?" "Oh, the depth (secrecy) of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord?"

So it's time to stop talking and start explaining what is not Biblical in my response to you, presenting a coherent argument from NT teaching, known as a Biblical demonstration, of what you assert.

Then it's up to you to Biblically rule out my presentation.

Imputed guilt of Adam is the reason for physical death, clearly explained by Paul in Romans 5:12-14, using as his demonstration the death of those between Adam and Moses even though they did not sin (Romans 5:14). . .they dying because the guilt of Adam was imputed to them (Romans 5:18).
"I do not understand" is not really adequate.

The ball is in your court. . .time to stop objecting/doubting and start explaining what is not Biblical in my response, as well as present your own coherent explanation from NT teaching, also known as a Biblical demonstration. What personal doctrine are you holding on to that you think will be unseated?
Feel free to exegete Romans 5, being both consistent with and relevant to Paul's teaching in Romans 5:12-21.

That explains a lot. . .

You're welcome. . .eyes opened is how new understanding starts out. . .it's hard to let go old beliefs so suitable to our fancies.
I find it sort of humorous how pushy you get in your post Clare. I think I will just let this subject simmer. I am reminded of the word saying "line upon line, here a little, there a little" maybe it will jell for me later. Bye : )
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,924
6,050
North Carolina
✟273,614.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I find it sort of humorous how pushy you get in your post Clare. I think I will just let this subject simmer. I am reminded of the word saying "line upon line, here a little, there a little" maybe it will jell for me later. Bye : )
I don't understand resistance to what has been clearly demonstrated, with no Biblical demonstration to support such resistance.

It makes no sense, and I push back against the non-sense.
My learning style is different.

And I also think it will be jelling for you later, to which I do not give enough weight in my pushing back.
Pushing back would be remedied in face-to-face conversion where one can better assess where the other party is.
 
Upvote 0

misput

JimD
Sep 5, 2018
1,023
382
84
Pacific, Mo.
✟152,101.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I don't understand resistance to what has been clearly demonstrated, with no Biblical demonstration to support such resistance.

It makes no sense, and I push back against the non-sense.
My learning style is different.

And I also think it will be jelling for you later, to which I do not give enough weight in my pushing back.
Pushing back would be remedied in face-to-face conversion where one can better assess where the other party is.
God Bless you Clare.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0

TedT

Member since Job 38:7
Jan 11, 2021
1,850
334
Vancouver Island
✟85,846.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Imputed guilt of Adam is the reason for physical death,

IF imputed righteousness creates a righteous person in GOD's sight from a sinner then the imputation of sin creates a sinful person from either an innocent or a righteous persons... Since GOD has no need for sinfulness and HIS nature is loving, righteousness and just so HE would never choose to impute sinfulness to (or create sinfulness in) any innocent or righteous person as HE has no reason to do this to anyone let alone HIS Bride destined to be HIS spouse.

OR, IF the imputation of righteousness to a sinner does NOT create the sinner as righteous since they are indeed still sinners in need of sanctification by the Spirit, then the imputation of righteousness in Christ is an acceptance of the sinner as righteous so that the Spirit is able to work with them unto their sanctification, not being able to abide evil people.

This would mean that the imputation of sinfulness is not a creation of sinfulness in the person, that there is no change in the person's nature but only in HIS accepted status with GOD... Does this definition of imputed sin sound any better? Not int the least!

IF HE cannot create evil (GOD is light and light cannot create the dark; GOD is love and love cannot create hate) then why would HE pretend some people are evil (treat them as evil when they are not evil) and visit upon them the consequences of evil, death and suffering as if their evil was in fact true??? !!!!

Imputation of sinfulness is a terrible doctrine when applied to those who have never made a free will decision to rebel against HIM or at least, HIS commands. "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."

Adam was condemned to die. This judgement can only righteously be imputed to all his progeny if they are all already sinners, not innocents. This imputation of death to all in Adam allowed Christ to die once for all sinners without having to die once for each sinner, that is, a billion times.
Imputation of the liability to judgement, yes. Imputation of sinfulness, no way!
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: misput
Upvote 0

TedT

Member since Job 38:7
Jan 11, 2021
1,850
334
Vancouver Island
✟85,846.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't understand resistance to what has been clearly demonstrated, with no Biblical demonstration to support such resistance.
Every verse in the Bible which supports or even hints at GOD's nature as loving, righteous and just, perfectly and obviously supports resistance against this blasphemy that our sin is according to HIS will, HIS chosen method of creating sinners with no input from their free will at all.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,924
6,050
North Carolina
✟273,614.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
IF imputed righteousness creates a righteous person in GOD's sight from a sinner then
the imputation of sin creates a sinful person from either an innocent or a righteous persons...
Keeping in mind that other than Jesus, there has never been an "innocent or righteous person" on earth.
Moot point.
Since GOD has no need for sinfulness and HIS nature is loving, righteousness and just so HE would never choose to impute sinfulness to (or create sinfulness in) any innocent or righteous person as HE has no reason to do this to anyone let alone HIS Bride destined to be HIS spouse.
Agreed. . .God does not impute sinfulness, he imputes guilt, which Paul shows in Romans 5:12-21.
There's a big difference between them.
OR, IF the imputation of righteousness to a sinner does NOT create the sinner as righteous since they are indeed still sinners in need of sanctification by the Spirit, then the imputation of righteousness in Christ is an acceptance of the sinner as righteous so that the Spirit is able to work with them unto their sanctification, not being able to abide evil people.
Which sanctification this side of glory is still not enough to make them adequately righteous in God's eyes, hence the imputation of Christ's righteousness, the only adequate righteousness in the eyes of God, and which additional sanctification is not the source of their guaranteed salvation, only their faith is.
This would mean that the imputation of sinfulness is not a creation of sinfulness in the person, that there is no change in the person's nature but only in HIS accepted status with GOD...
Does this definition of imputed sin sound any better? Not int the least!
Correct.

Because it's not about creating sinfulness in the person,
it's about making Adam's guilt the cause of the physical death of all mankind
(human and animal, whether unrighteous or righteous, which no one is, or ever has been, other than Jesus).
IF HE cannot create evil (GOD is light and light cannot create the dark; GOD is love and love cannot create hate) then why would HE pretend some people are evil (treat them as evil when they are not evil) and visit upon them the consequences of evil, death and suffering as if their evil was in fact true??? !!!!
It's not about suffering, it's about the consequences of physical death to all mankind.
Imputation of sinfulness is a terrible doctrine
Agreed. . .it's not about sinfulness, it's about guilt.
when applied to those who have never made a free will decision to rebel against HIM or at least, HIS commands. "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."

Adam was condemned to die. This judgement can only righteously be imputed to all his progeny if they are all already sinners, not innocents.
Adam's guilt is imputed to all mankind so that none of his progeny can escape physical death which is caused by breaking God's explicit commands, as did Adam.
This imputation of death to all in Adam
So you have no problem with God imputing death to all mankind, only with him imputing guilt to justify their death, when there were no commands between Adam and Moses to cause their deaths.
allowed Christ to die once for all sinners without having to die once for each sinner, that is, a billion times.
Nothing creates a necessity for Christ to die once for each sinner, rather than dying once for all sinners.
Moot point.
Imputation of the liability to judgement, yes. Imputation of sinfulness, no way!
Sinfulness is not being imputed, guilt is being imputed.

Paul presents imputation of Adam's guilt as the reason for the death of all mankind between Adam and Moses when there was no law to transgress and, therefore, no sin--"they did not sin" (Romans 5:14).

So. . .you say they died because Adam's judgment (for breaking God's command) was imputed to them who "did not sin" (by breaking God's commands/laws because there was no law to break), and
Paul says they died because Adam's guilt was imputed to them who were not guilty of sin (by breaking God's commands/laws because there was no law to break).

I'm thinking Paul got it right for two reasons:
1 ) Imputed righteousness is the counterpart of imputed guilt, not the counterpart of imputed judgment,
2) Paul received his revelation from Jesus Christ personally (Galatians 1:11-12), having been caught up to the third heaven, and even hearing inexpressible things man is not permitted to tell (2 Corinthians 12:3-4).

I think we are actually in agreement when you understand I am not talking about imputed sinfulness, but imputed guilt, they not being the same thing, and Paul demonstrating imputed guilt in Romans 5:12-21.
Good for you!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,924
6,050
North Carolina
✟273,614.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Every verse in the Bible which supports or even hints at GOD's nature as loving, righteous and just, perfectly and obviously supports resistance against this blasphemy that our sin is according to HIS will, HIS chosen method of creating sinners with no input from their free will at all.
See post #770 above, you misunderstood me.
 
Upvote 0

misput

JimD
Sep 5, 2018
1,023
382
84
Pacific, Mo.
✟152,101.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Every verse in the Bible which supports or even hints at GOD's nature as loving, righteous and just, perfectly and obviously supports resistance against this blasphemy that our sin is according to HIS will, HIS chosen method of creating sinners with no input from their free will at all.
You voice the same concerns I have TedT but who knows the mind of God, certainly not me.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,924
6,050
North Carolina
✟273,614.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You voice the same concerns I have TedT but
who knows the mind of God, certainly not me.
The NT does, and you argue against what it reveals regarding it. . .which revelation is not what Ted assumed I was saying; i.e., that God imputes sinfulness.
 
Upvote 0

misput

JimD
Sep 5, 2018
1,023
382
84
Pacific, Mo.
✟152,101.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Keeping in mind that other than Jesus, there has never been an "innocent or righteous person" on earth.
Moot point.

Agreed. . .God does not impute sinfulness, he imputes guilt, which Paul shows in Romans 5:12-21.
There's a big difference between them.

Which sanctification this side of glory is still not enough to make them adequately righteous in God's eyes, hence the imputation of Christ's righteousness, the only adequate righteousness in the eyes of God, and which additional sanctification is not the source of their guaranteed salvation, only their faith is.
Correct.

Because it's not about creating sinfulness in the person,
it's about making Adam's guilt the cause of the physical death of all mankind
(human and animal, whether unrighteous or righteous, which no one is, or ever has been, other than Jesus).

It's not about suffering, it's about the consequences of physical death to all mankind.

Agreed. . .it's not about sinfulness, it's about guilt.

Adam's guilt is imputed to all mankind so that none of his progeny can escape physical death which is caused by breaking God's explicit commands, as did Adam.

So you have no problem with God imputing death to all mankind, only with him imputing guilt to justify their death, when there were no commands between Adam and Moses to cause their deaths.

Nothing creates a necessity for Christ to die once for each sinner, rather than dying once for all sinners.
Moot point.

Sinfulness is not being imputed, guilt is being imputed.

Paul presents imputation of Adam's guilt as the reason for the death of all mankind between Adam and Moses when there was no law to transgress and, therefore, no sin--"they did not sin" (Romans 5:14).

So. . .you say they died because Adam's judgment (for breaking God's command) was imputed to them who "did not sin" (by breaking God's commands/laws because there was no law to break), and
Paul says they died because Adam's guilt was imputed to them who were not guilty of sin (by breaking God's commands/laws because there was no law to break).

I'm thinking Paul got it right for two reasons:
1 ) Imputed righteousness is the counterpart of imputed guilt, not the counterpart of imputed judgment,
2) Paul received his revelation from Jesus Christ personally (Galatians 1:11-12), having been caught up to the third heaven, and even hearing inexpressible things man is not permitted to tell (2 Corinthians 12:3-4).

I think we are actually in agreement when you understand I am not talking about imputed sinfulness, but imputed guilt, they not being the same thing, and Paul demonstrating imputed guilt in Romans 5:12-21.
Good for you!
Guilt of sin without sinning is a new concept to me. Cain and Able died because Adam sinned, not because they sinned? Were the sacrifices they made too God, for their sins or for Adams?
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,924
6,050
North Carolina
✟273,614.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Guilt of sin without sinning is a new concept to me. Cain and Able died because Adam sinned, not because they sinned? Were the sacrifices they made too God, for their sins or for Adams?
What does Paul say in Romans 5:12-14 about the sinning of all those between Adam and Moses, including Cain and Abel (Romans 5:14)?

Hint: the only "sin in the world" was the sin of Adam.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

misput

JimD
Sep 5, 2018
1,023
382
84
Pacific, Mo.
✟152,101.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
What does Paul say in Romans 5:12-14 about the sinning of all those between Adam and Moses, including Cain and Abel (Romans 5:14)?

Hint: the only "sin in the world" was the sin of Adam.
Why did Cain and Able offer sacrifices too God?
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,924
6,050
North Carolina
✟273,614.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
What does Paul say in Romans 5:12-14 about the sinning of all those between Adam and Moses, including Cain and Abel (Romans 5:14)?

Hint: the only "sin in the world" was the sin of Adam.
Why did Cain and Able offer sacrifices too God?
You didn't answer my question.

So that we can go forward with a basis for discussion, instead of just beating the air around, let's agree on what the NT teaches in Romans 5:12-15, particularly as to why all died in v. 15, keeping in mind that the effect of imputing Adam's guilt to all is physical death to all.

So why did all mankind die when they did not sin (no sin was accounted to them)? (v.14)
 
Upvote 0

misput

JimD
Sep 5, 2018
1,023
382
84
Pacific, Mo.
✟152,101.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You didn't answer my question.

So that we can go forward with a basis for discussion, instead of just beating the air around, let's agree on what the NT teaches in Romans 5:12-15, particularly as to why all died in v. 15, keeping in mind that the effect of imputing Adam's guilt to all is physical death to all.

So why did all mankind die when they did not sin (no sin was accounted to them)? (v.14)
If Adams guilt is imputed to all and brings physical death to all. What brings Spiritual death to all?
 
Upvote 0

TedT

Member since Job 38:7
Jan 11, 2021
1,850
334
Vancouver Island
✟85,846.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Guilt of sin without sinning is a new concept to me.
Yes, Calvinists are backed up against the wall but still will only reframe their blasphemies, loving their religion more than their GOD who is loving, righteous and just so would never impute guilt, (what I referred to as judgment, the result of guilt, ie death and suffering) without sin.
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,924
6,050
North Carolina
✟273,614.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
If Adams guilt is imputed to all and brings physical death to all.
What brings Spiritual death to all?
We are born in the spiritual death; (i.e., no eternal life, which was lost by Adam) of our fallen (unregenerate) nature.
If we die without the rebirth (spiritual resurrection, regeneration) into eternal life, we remain without Christ, and in the spiritual death in which we were born.

Our unregenerate nature comes with ("brings") spiritual death (Ephesians 2:3).
Imputation of Adam's guilt brings physical death (Romans 5:12-15).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0