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Free Will - God's test that all mankind flunks

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by 3 Resurrections, Aug 23, 2021.

  1. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    I don't mean to be picky, but where does it say that Adam was tempted?

    1Ti_2:14
    And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

    It says that Adam was not even in the transgression, so what then was His Sin?

    Adam was told to not eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

    Adam did eat, he subsequently died both Spiritually, and Physically.

    Was Adams death because of disobedience to God, or was it because the Tree had death residing within the fruit which God had said would cause him to die?

    And oh, man never had free will, especially the way we believe it to be.

    Adam was created in the Image and Likeness of God, but he was a lesser because God said "do not eat"

    An equal cannot Command an equal.

    Adam was a servant, God placed him in the Garden to dress it and keep it, does not sound like someone who possessed free will to say "NO" I want to be an Engineer.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2021
  2. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    What you or anyone else would call Free Will only resides withing the framework of what God called
    "The Dominion over the earth, to subdue it"
    Free Will does not exist outside of this framework God placed it in.

    Adam Fell from being a Servant of God to being a Servant of Sin until such a time Gods Grace comes to him and he becomes a Servant of God once again, this is RECONCILIATION.
     
  3. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Eve had a conversation with a Serpent, she subsequently ate the fruit.

    She was deceived, pure and simple, no Free Will (required) to be deceived.
     
  4. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Well I would say that given the evidence seen in all man that Adam was no different in his nature since he appears to show the same handicap.
     
  5. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    You know. That serpent stuff and then when his wife, Eve, pressured Adam to go along with her choice to go against God's wishes. ;)

    If Adam was not a transgressor, why did he get driven from the Garden by God, forced to labor and die a physical death, and all the rest?

    The first of those.
     
  6. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    What is this earthly objective mankind needs Free Will in order to fulfill
     
  7. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    I think it would be best for you to go back and read the whole narrative about what happened, and not take just what you have been taught it means.
     
  8. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Interesting, to say the least.

    But Scripture now focuses on our disposition--what we prefer, which is the problem to be remedied, and at which Scripture is directed.

    That is what we need to understand, focus on and deal with, and the Biblical solution to that problem.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2021
  9. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    The NT makes it pretty clear in Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14.

    I don't hope to improve on it.

    See more in post #71.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2021
  10. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Will, perhaps. Free? —no.

    BTW, their earthly objective is in God's hands, to become the members that will be Bride of Christ, to God's glory. (No, I didn't say we have no responsibility in the matter.)
     
  11. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    You have ascribed a fallen human definition to an attribute of the holy, infinite and sovereign God, which has no basis in Scripture.

    Anything you build on this principle will be fallen human rubbish.
     
  12. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Sure, I was speaking casually there, but I'd recommend you check out Genesis 3:11-13, 17-19, and 23-24.
     
  13. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Gods' judgement on what Adam had done was in verses 17-19 it was not for having a conversation with the serpent and exercising his Free Will, it says he took from Eve, and did eat.
     
  14. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Don't make it a point to ignore the other verses that I listed.

    They, if read, will correct the misapprehension that you've outlined for us here.
     
  15. FaithWillDo

    FaithWillDo Active Member

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    Dear Jiminz,
    I read your posts and agree with most of your comments, especially when you said that mankind does not have a free will.

    God's "will" rules supreme in His creation. God is spirit and He does His work "within" mankind. He is the one who gives us our thoughts and beliefs. Mankind's carnal nature makes us believe that we have a free will but it is only because God has put obscurity in the heart of mankind:

    Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity (the world) in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

    God's "work" is spiritual work and it happens "within" mankind. But because of our carnal nature and the fact that mankind is spiritually blind, we don't realize it when God does His spiritual work in our hearts. God's Word even says this:

    Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

    Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

    Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

    Back to Adam and Eve, your comments are correct on them, too. But I will add that they were created spiritually marred and because of such, they quickly became carnally minded. But God made them this way on purpose so that Eve would be deceived by Satan and sin. God placed Satan in the Garden for the purpose for which He was created and that is to "destroy".

    Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (LUST OF THE FLESH), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (LUST OF THE EYES), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (PRIDE OF LIFE), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

    Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

    Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

    Eve displayed all three of the causes of sin (which originate from our carnal nature) BEFORE she sinned. She was made spiritually marred on purpose so that she would sin and become "evil".

    This creation of God's is for the purpose of creating new children of God. This is how God produces His offspring. And to be like God, we must have a knowledge of "good and evil". For that reason, God placed the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden.

    Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

    An experience of evil has also been given to us to humble us:

    Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

    In this creation, God is working all things after the counsel of His own "will" to accomplish producing new children for Himself. He created us evil at the beginning. He is now in the process of restoring us back to Himself. He sent Christ to accomplish this great work:

    1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

    Our salvation is 100% the work of Christ and He will not fail in the restoration of ALL mankind. In this present age, Christ is saving the First-Fruits (the Elect, the Heirs, etc.) of His harvest of mankind. He is not saving anyone else at this time. But He will not let the rest of mankind rot in the field. At the end of the harvest season (end of the Lake of Fire age), He will bring in the full harvest of mankind.

    In the end, this verse will be testified to be true:

    1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    Nothing in God's creation happens by chance nor does God just allow things to just happen. He is the cause behind all things, even the salvation of mankind. We do not have a free will to save ourselves. We are saved solely because it is God's "will" for it to happen.

    Joe
     
  16. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Interesting topic. Thanks.

    Today I saw an interesting definition of free will = self-determination.

    I'm questioning where this whole concept of free will came from, especially in reference to salvation.
     
  17. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    What misapprehension, I have none.
     
  18. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Check Aristotle, Plato and Cicero for free will.
    Check human reasoning for it in reference to salvation.
    The reasoning is thus:
    If man is responsible for sin, then he must be morally free to not sin. Therefore, the necessity of free will according to human reasoning.

    See post #71 for fuller presentation of "free will."
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2021
  19. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    The only place I have been able to define Free Will adequately is in direct relation to Salvation.

    Therefore I have come to the conclusion mankind has never possessed nor will he in the future, Free Will.

    You can choose which socks to wear today, but you do not possess the attribute of choosing not to sin.

    John 8:34
    Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

    It is our nature to sin, because of the Fall, no Free Will there. (Servant = Slave)

    You can choose what Kind of car to drive, but you do not possess the attribute to choose the day of your Salvation.

    Eph 2:8,9
    8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Tit. 1:1
    Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

    Jas. 1:1
    James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

    Paul and James wrote letters to Believers saying they were Servants of God. (Servant = Slave).

    So then, we go from being Slaves of Sin, to being Slaves of God. (Slaves none the less, Slaves do not Possess Free Will.

    I do not believe that this belief of mankind having Free Will pertains to anything inside of the Spiritual Realm.

    Therefore we as Sinners or Believers do not Possess Free Will
     
  20. 3 Resurrections

    3 Resurrections That's 666 YEARS, folks

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    I would disagree with this statement. Ecclesiastes said that "God hath made man upright", and God pronounced His own creation at the beginning "good" and "very good". No evil created at the beginning. Just a probationary status that was forfeited when the original couple obeyed Satan's suggestion instead of God's command.

    I DO agree with this, however:
    A rather inept analogy for the fall would be a comparison to Satan dangling an enticing ad on Eve's computer screen. When she fell for the deceptive ad, she convinced Adam to click on it with her, which introduced a computer virus that has infected the entire system ever since. It takes God to clean the bugs out of the system.
     
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