Free grace vs preservation of the saints which is truth?

[Neostarwcc]

A lot of free grace churches have been springing up in Protestantism and idk if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I personally believe in Eternal security like many other protestants but I also think that free grace just isn't a correct way to interpret the bible and that preserverence of the saints is the correct doctrine. One main verse I use in this interpretation of scripture is John 10:27-29. In these two verses Christ promises to eternally keep his sheep forever in ever. If free grace were true than why would christ need to keep us? He would just save everybody who comes to him correct? (Which K admit is what John 6:37-40 seems to teach.) To me, free grace is just taking God for granted and calls God a liar in a few verses that are clear that Christ just doesn't save every single person who comes to him for salvation. A christian has to preservere to the end but the good news to that is that Christ keeps us in the faith now and forever. I

 

[~Zao~]

Grace is God’s operating principle for His children. Law was suited to spiritual infancy. Grace sets Jesus as our example of standard to look to. Returning to the law is leaving the grace principle. Galatians 5:4

 

[grasping the after wind]

A lot of free grace churches have been springing up in Protestantism and idk if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I personally believe in Eternal security like many other protestants but I also think that free grace just isn't a correct way to interpret the bible and that preserverence of the saints is the correct doctrine. One main verse I use in this interpretation of scripture is John 10:27-29. In these two verses Christ promises to eternally keep his sheep forever in ever. If free grace were true than why would christ need to keep us? He would just save everybody who comes to him correct? (Which K admit is what John 6:37-40 seems to teach.) To me, free grace is just taking God for granted and calls God a liar in a few verses that are clear that Christ just doesn't save every single person who comes to him for salvation. A christian has to preservere to the end but the good news to that is that Christ keeps us in the faith now and forever. I

I always considered that God gave us His Grace free of charge. How much do you think we need to pay to purchase God's Grace?

 

[Neostarwcc]

Grace is God’s operating principle for His children. Law was suited to spiritual infancy. Grace sets Jesus as our example of standard to look to. Returning to the law is leaving the grace principle. Galatians 5:4

I dont mean to offend those who teach and believe in free grace but free grace tells the Christian that they can live however they want and it doesn't matter what they do, whether they remained in the faith or... really ANYTHING. Apparently when TV hey accepted Christ their salvation was secured. To ne this is just bupkis for several reasons. This just takes the true doctrine of ES to the extreme and just isn't true at all.

Because while its true that all of their sins are forgiven and it doesn't matter what they do and that they all they have Eternal security. They DO have to remain in the faith, they do have to do the works Christ set aside for them, and they DO have to ho "all-in" for Christ. Christ works to keep them in the faith and to help them do those works.

Just because we are eternally secure does not give us the right or ability to live however we ccx want. Dorry.

 

[Monksailor]

I agree in part as I believe both positions can be and are true. Ephesians 2:8-10, embraces both, I believe. This "free grace" context INCLUDES, "10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (ESV)

Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13, very clearly say "YES to your second question, "He would just save everybody who comes to him correct?" These two do not just seem to say so.

Your first question of why would Jesus need to keep us. Keep is used in different ways in the Bible. Just as we read "love" and actually it has at least 3 meanings from the Greek and Hebrew. I think that these are lost due to no simple translation word for word, or impossible. Once we are saved, we are inseparable from Christ. He is in us and we are in Him. He is also our shepherd and we are his flock. The shepherd keeps the flock; watches over, cares for, and protects.

 

[Neostarwcc]

I agree in part as I believe both positions can be and are true. Ephesians 2:8-10, embraces both, I believe. This "free grace" context INCLUDES, "10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (ESV)

Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13, very clearly say "YES to your second question, "He would just save everybody who comes to him correct?" These two do not just seem to say so.

Your first question of why would Jesus need to keep us. Keep is used in different ways in the Bible. Just as we read "love" and actually it has at least 3 meanings from the Greek and Hebrew. I think that these are lost due to no simple translation word for word, or impossible. Once we are saved, we are inseparable from Christ. He is in us and we are in Him. He is also our shepherd and we are his flock. The shepherd keeps the flock; watches over, cares for, and protects.

Agreed. But the question/debate would be what about those who fall away? Free grace claims that those people are still saved but will lose rewards but where in the bible did the apostles/Christ say that? Christ says the one who endures to the end will be saved. But he also claims that it's impossible to lose your salvation. These two facts can't be true unless those people never were saved yo begin with and that Christ keeps his sheep secure.

 

[Monksailor]

Well, Hebrews 6:4-6 and 2 or 3 places in I and 2 John we see your position being reiterated and on the other side many verses like ones I have given and simply, John 3:16 which seem to say another. I do not think we will know till the time comes. Paul, Jesus told us that there are many things that no man will know or can know.

 

[sdowney717]

Grace saves us by making us born again according to His mercy on an individual basis of course, The means of preservation is by the exercise of God's power applied to us by means of faith, both are gifts, being born of God, and the faith.

1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Well, Hebrews 6:4-6 and 2 or 3 places in I and 2 John we see your position being reiterated and on the other side many verses like ones I have given and simply, John 3:16 which seem to say another. I do not think we will know till the time comes. Paul, Jesus told us that there are many things that no man will know or can know.

True. But the author of Hebrews also said that a Christian is saved once for all in Hebrews 10:10 so both statements by the author of Hebrews cannot be true. Unless Hebrews 6:4-6 is trying to say that IF it were possible for a born again Christian to fall away than there would be no way for them to get their salvation back. But scripture says time and time again that God keeps a true believer in the faith (Hence preserverence of the saints being true IMO) and not only that but also that those people are eternally secure otherwise Christ and the apostles couldn't have made the promises of eternal security that they had made. I wish someone who actually believes in free grace would reply to this topic and answer many of my questions because it seems like they believe that everyone who comes to Christ and even those that fall away will be saved. They will just lose rewards but IMO the Bible just doesn't say that.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Grace saves us by making us born again according to His mercy on an individual basis of course, The means of preservation is by the exercise of God's power applied to us by means of faith, both are gifts, being born of God, and the faith.

1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Correct. I 100% agree with you. I didn't know that Peter also said that we are kept by the power of God too though. That's awesome.

 

[sdowney717]

Correct. I 100% agree with you. I didn't know that Peter also said that we are kept by the power of God too though. That's awesome.

It sure is an awesome great salvation. The New Covenant is perfect. if the New Covenant depended on us, as the OC did, it would have been a ministry of condemnation as was the OC and the Law

2 Corinthians 3
Glory of the New Covenant
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

 

[Neostarwcc]

It sure is an awesome great salvation. The New Covenant is perfect. if the New Covenant depended on us, as the OC did, it would have been a ministry of condemnation as was the OC and the Law

2 Corinthians 3
Glory of the New Covenant
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

So very true! Even the OC declared our salvation and eternal security. Isiah and micah both said that our sins would be completely wiped out and remembered no more.

 

[BobRyan]

A lot of free grace churches have been springing up in Protestantism and idk if that's a good thing or a bad thing. I personally believe in Eternal security like many other protestants but I also think that free grace just isn't a correct way to interpret the bible and that preserverence of the saints is the correct doctrine. One main verse I use in this interpretation of scripture is John 10:27-29. In these two verses Christ promises to eternally keep his sheep forever in ever. If free grace were true than why would christ need to keep us? He would just save everybody who comes to him correct? (Which K admit is what John 6:37-40 seems to teach.) To me, free grace is just taking God for granted and calls God a liar in a few verses that are clear that Christ just doesn't save every single person who comes to him for salvation. A christian has to preservere to the end but the good news to that is that Christ keeps us in the faith now and forever. I

1. Perseverance of the saints.. true. only those who persevere firm to the end will enter heaven.
2. OSAS not in the Bible.
3. unlimited atoning sacrifice - 1 John 2:2 -- true.
4. Limited atonement Matthew 7 such that only "the few" on the narrow road enter heaven... true.

What most Calvinists mean by "limited atonement" is "limited atoning sacrifice" which is a problem for the one reading 1 John 2:2

 

[BobRyan]

So very true! Even the OC declared our salvation and eternal security. Isiah and micah both said that our sins would be completely wiped out and remembered no more.

The OC believes that once you are saved you can never go into apostasy and be lost?

I did not know that.