Free Grace Theology vs. Lordship Salvation

[Humble_Disciple]

Well one has to remember Martin Luther came out of the Catholic Church. So i see him not being able to shake all of the catholic teaching out of his mind.

So i could see him staying with that belief even though it is not Biblical. He was able to break away from a work salvation but was just not able to completely embrace a free grace soteriology

Did any of the Protestant reformers teach that we can stop believing and still be saved?

 

[Ceallaigh]

Thank you for sharing this video.

From what I know and observe about free grace advocates like Charles Ryrie, Zane Hodges, Robert Wilkin, Charlie Bing, etc., is that, even though they don't believe that good works are required for salvation, they do good works anyway because of how grateful they are to Jesus for their salvation and how much they love Jesus. These seem like genuinely kind people, showing grace to others in gratitude for the grace Christ showed them.

I think that's what it's all about. I think we shouldn't think in terms of getting into heaven. I think we should think in terms of I'm a Christian and this is what a Christian does. This is how a Christian acts. This is what a Christian desires. It's like deciding to become an athlete. You dedicate yourself to that. You have a discipline and a goal. Or a musician. You stay active with that, you practice daily. You're always striving to improve your ability. It's a labor of love. People put their heart and soul into all sorts of pursuits. I think I should put my heart and soul into being a Christian the same way. Not to get to heaven, but to answer my calling.

 

[Ceallaigh]

This might be Jesus' warning against Lordship salvation preachers:



Not only do they limit the call of salvation to just the "elect," they confuse justification with sanctification, turning away anyone as unsaved whose life hasn't yet brought visible fruits.

Exactly my thoughts. I think if it was Lordship Sanctification, then it would be a different ball of wax. I think then it would be more like Christification that Jordan Cooper teaches.

 

[d taylor]

Did any of the Protestant reformers teach that we can stop believing and still be saved?

I am not sure as i do not do much (really if any) reading of past theologians and what they believed. Off hand i can not think of any, actually i really can not name any protestant believers in the past except like the well known ones. Like Martin Luther, John Calvin past those two i am at a loss to name any more.

If you would like i could email Bob Wilkin to see if he knows of any.

But regardless of what past people believed. Verses like these show once a person trust in the Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life it is theirs. Everlasting life is everlasting life, i have never seen it referred to as conditional everlasting life.

Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

 

[d taylor]

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If a person will note, in The Bible it is the name The Messiah, The Christ, The Son of God that Jesus is always saying is the name that people need to trust in to receive Eternal Life. Just read the Gosple of John and it can be seen, it is The Messiah, The Christ, The Son of God that is stated is the name that gives a person Eternal Life

but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

Naming Jesus as Lord is never stated as a name to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. It is used in Romans by people who are already believers, to be used by the believer to be saved from persecution or wrath from God.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Below are a few articles about this.

Has This Passage Ever Bothered You? – Romans 10:9-10 – Grace Evangelical Society

Justification by Faith and Salvation by Works? — The Key to Understanding Romans 10:9-10 – Grace Evangelical Society

Why Confess Christ? The Use and Abuse of Romans 10:9-10 | Bible.org

 

[Humble_Disciple]

I am not sure as i do not do much (really if any) reading of past theologians and what they believed. Off hand i can not think of any, actually i really can not name any protestant believers in the past except like the well known ones. Like Martin Luther, John Calvin past those two i am at a loss to name any more.

If you would like i could email Bob Wilkin to see if he knows of any.

But regardless of what past people believed. Verses like these show once a person trust in the Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life it is theirs. Everlasting life is everlasting life, i have never seen it referred to as conditional everlasting life.

Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

There are also numerous passages of scripture which suggest that it's possible to apostatize and lose one's salvation.

• 
  

  [*]Matthew 10:22: but whoever endures to the end will be saved.
  [*]Romans 11:22: Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
  [*]1 Corinthians 9:25-27: Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
  [*]1 Corinthians 10:12:Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall.
  [*]Galatians 5:4: You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
  [*]2 Peter 2:20: For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
  [*]Colossians 1:21-23: And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
  [*]Hebrews KJV:Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.
  [*]Revelation 3:2-5: "Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels."
  Perseverance of the saints - Wikipedia

 

[Humble_Disciple]

Arminianism is closer to Roman Catholic Doctrine than Lutheran, because both the Roman and the Arminian systems are Synergetic in salvation.

Did Luther ever suggest that, by habitual sin, one can forfeit one's salvation?

 

[Humble_Disciple]

I've purchased the book Eternal Security by Charles Stanley, to see what Biblical arguments there might be for once saved, always saved. I'm a little skeptical about it, because it seems to only be a doctrine taught by dispensationalists.

 

[d taylor]

There are also numerous passages of scripture which suggest that it's possible to apostatize and lose one's salvation.

Well then then only solution to this problem since The Bible also (verses i have posted) state never (thirst, hunger again) (and that Jesus states He will not cast out) when a person trust in The Messiah for Eternal Life.

So the only solution i see is to say the Bible contradicts Itself concerning a believer/person and their Eternal Life.

 

[d taylor]

I've purchased the book Eternal Security by Charles Stanley, to see what Biblical arguments there might be for once saved, always saved. I'm a little skeptical about it, because it seems to only be a doctrine taught by dispensationalists.

Why not try a few of these or at least if you do read Charles Stanley compare it with free grace teachers.

Enduring till the End – Grace Evangelical Society

Beyond Doubt: How to Be Sure of Your Salvation – Grace Evangelical Society

Confident in Christ, 2nd Edition – Grace Evangelical Society

Discussions on Tough Texts – Grace Evangelical Society

Charles Stanley is a lordship type of person.
https://www.intouch.org/read/blog/the-way-of-salvation

 

[Humble_Disciple]

Why not try a few of these or at least if you do read Charles Stanley compare it with free grace teachers.

Enduring till the End – Grace Evangelical Society

Beyond Doubt: How to Be Sure of Your Salvation – Grace Evangelical Society

Confident in Christ, 2nd Edition – Grace Evangelical Society

Discussions on Tough Texts – Grace Evangelical Society

Charles Stanley is a lordship type of person.
https://www.intouch.org/read/blog/the-way-of-salvation

I think Charles Stanley is closer to the free grace side. He teaches that one cannot lose one's salvation, even by leaving the faith.

Eternal Security: Can You Be Sure? – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[Humble_Disciple]

Well then then only solution to this problem since The Bible also (verses i have posted) state never (thirst, hunger again) (and that Jesus states He will not cast out) when a person trust in The Messiah for Eternal Life.

So the only solution i see is to say the Bible contradicts Itself concerning a believer/person and their Eternal Life.

I don't see it as a contradiction. We will never hunger and never thirst as long as we remain in the faith. Why would someone who renounces Christianity care if they are saved or not?

 

[d taylor]

I think Charles Stanley is closer to the free grace side. He teaches that one cannot lose one's salvation, even by leaving the faith.

His way to receive salvation is not, pure lordship salvation. They solve the problem of losing a persons salvation, just by saying they were never really true believers.

From his website
Another area of confusion is the lordship of Christ. Some people want to claim Jesus as Savior but not as Lord. They desire His forgiveness and a guarantee of heaven, but they don’t want Him telling them how to live. The problem with this approach is not only that it is extremely selfish; it’s also contrary to the very identity of the Son of God. He is the Lord Jesus Christ, and we cannot remove the fact that He is our Lord and God. Those who are truly repentant are willing to submit to Christ and let Him lead them in a new direction.

 

[Humble_Disciple]

His way to receive salvation is not, pure lordship salvation. They solve the problem of losing a persons salvation, just by saying they were never really true believers.

From his website
Another area of confusion is the lordship of Christ. Some people want to claim Jesus as Savior but not as Lord. They desire His forgiveness and a guarantee of heaven, but they don’t want Him telling them how to live. The problem with this approach is not only that it is extremely selfish; it’s also contrary to the very identity of the Son of God. He is the Lord Jesus Christ, and we cannot remove the fact that He is our Lord and God. Those who are truly repentant are willing to submit to Christ and let Him lead them in a new direction.

It is clear from the statement quoted above that Stanley is as far from Lordship Salvation as it is possible to get. Many, many other comments in this book show the same thing. Yet as far as this reviewer has noticed, Stanley refers to Lordship Salvation directly only once. This occurs in a footnote on p. 111, where a view that the author has rejected in his text is linked with “some who hold to…Lordship salvation.” Stanley’s minimal reference to this issue is a prudent choice since his book has a much larger question in mind: eternal security itself. But no Lordship theologian will find even a trace of comfort in this author’s theology...
Salvation or justification or adoption-whatever you wish to call it-stands independently of faith. Consequently, God does not require a constant attitude of faith in order to be saved-only an act of faith” (p. 80). A little later, Stanley also writes: “You and I are not saved because we have an enduring faith. We are saved because at a moment in time we expressed faith in our enduring Lord” (p. 80).
Eternal Security: Can You Be Sure? – Grace Evangelical Society

I think an author as prolific as Stanley might have quotes, when taken out of context, appear to contradict other things he's written. I've been watching his YouTube videos too, and he appears to be on the free grace side.

 

[d taylor]

I think an author as prolific as Stanley might have quotes, when taken out of context, appear to contradict other things he's written. I've been watching his YouTube videos too, and he appears to be on the free grace side.

If he mentions repentance when presenting a presentation to a person in a salvation message. Then he is not free grace

 

[Daniel9v9]

Did Luther ever suggest that, by habitual sin, one can forfeit one's salvation?

Yes and no. You see, there is a problem with the expression ”habitual sin” in that it assumes that there is such a thing as non-habitual sin. But God's Word says that if we break one commandment, we break them all. So we are all habitual sinners — that's what it means to be a sinner. But it's unbelief that results in death and damnation.

The difference then, is that a believer in Jesus, one who trusts in the person and works of Jesus Christ for his salvation, is given the gift of the Holy Spirit who produces good works in us and gradually makes us Christ-like. And this means living in daily repentance, having received forgiveness of sins once and for all on the cross AND every day. We can know this simply by considering our Lord's Prayer: "Give us today our daily bread and forgive us our sins", meaning God's provision and forgiveness of sins is both once and for all and constant. But those who claim to have faith, but believe and teach that what is sin is not sin, and live in unrepentance, they forfeit their salvation by their unbelief.

Let me give a practical example: For a Christian to struggle with sexual immorality, with daily repentance and prayer is very different from someone who embraces and encourages sexual immorality. The former is a sinner who is forgiven and clothed in Christ, the latter is a sinner who rejects God's Word, though he may believe in something — only that this something is not the person and works of Jesus. In short, there's a difference between a life of Sanctification and a life of sin.

So rather than talking about "habitual sin", we talk about faith and unbelief, as Mark 16:16 reads: "Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

 

[Humble_Disciple]

What did Lutheran mean when he said "sin boldly"? Has this been interpreted out of context?

 

[Daniel9v9]

What did Lutheran mean when he said "sin boldly"? Has this been interpreted out of context?

Yeah, Luther certainly had the ability to speak with great accuracy, but he often used very colourful expressions, which can be easily misunderstood. This is one of those cases. (Just to put an asterisk on this, this does not mean that everything Luther said or did was right. But we hold a lot of what he said is helpful and right — particularly his emphasis on God's Word and the centrality of Justification, and the right distinction between Law and Gospel)

What Luther was doing was comforting his friend Melanchthon with the Gospel, saying that, yes, we are all sinners, but there is hope for us sinners in Christ. He's saying that though our sins are great, God's mercy is greater. This is not to be understood as an excuse to sin, but rather, as Paul says in Romans 8:38-39: "For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Or Daniel 9:9: "The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against Him"

In short, Luther was consoling his friend with the free grace of God, and not advocating Antinomianism. Melancthon was very close to Luther and he understood how Luther spoke and what he meant by it.

 

[Humble_Disciple]

Dr. Evans brings down the house. This is one of the best sermons I’ve ever heard.

Dr. Evans says that we can only follow Philippians 4:6 if we believe in eternal security, because otherwise we will be anxious about our salvation:

Philippians 4:6
Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.

 

[Humble_Disciple]

Lordship salvation advocates claim to be Calvinists, but I don't think John Calvin would agree with them if he were alive today. Here are some quotes from Calvin's The Institutes of Christian Religion on the assurance of salvation:

Briefly, he alone is truly a believer who, convinced by a firm conviction that God is a kindly and well-disposed Father toward him, promises himself all things on the basis of His generosity; who relying upon the promises of divine benevolence toward him, lays hold on an undoubted expectation of salvation.

Faith is ultimately a firm and certain knowledge of God's benevolence toward us, founded upon the truth of the freely given promise in Christ, both revealed to our minds and sealed upon our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

Here, Calvin is not saying that our assurance of salvation should be based on our good works or our adequate repentance of sin, but instead firmly on the promises of Christ for those who believe.

Please notice Calvin saying the promise is "freely given." That means it's unconditional.