Free Grace Theology - The theology that allows devil worshippers into heaven

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Jack Terrence

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The Bible is clear; one is saved WHEN they believe. Jn 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has (present tense) eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
So, apparently, griff takes issue His Lord and Savior.
FG2 seems to deny that there is such a thing as believing in vain.


This demonstrates a failure to understand God's grace.
No! It is YOU who fails to understand God's grace. You have converted God's grace into licentiousness. Otherwise, there is no such thing as converting God's grace into licentiousness.

Maybe you can tell us what turning God's grace into licentiousness means.
 
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AndOne

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And Charles Templeton was perhaps one such example.

Hymenaeus and Alexander (1 Tim 1:19) are examples of others who have shipwrecked their faith, and for whom they cannot be restored to repentance.

:thumbsup:
 
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FreeGrace2

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I have not spoken to a TULIP Calvinist who accepts that the person who 'falls away' was ever a believer in the first place.
Correct. But then there is the problem of explaining exactly what "saving faith" means to them. To just dismiss one's actual faith in Christ as a vapor is only a cop-out for them. But their doctrine of the perseverance of the saints teaches that the "true" believer will neve fall away, but will persevere in the faith, though against a number of clear verses that say otherwise.

You gave an excellent example with Charles Templeton as a believer who fell away.

Oz
Thanks. Also the passage in 1 Tim 5:11-15 about younger widows. Very clear, yet Paul indicates no concern of their eternal destiny. The word for "condemnation" (NASB) or "bring judgment on themselves" (NIV) in v. 12 doesn't mean loss of eternal life. It does, however, indicate that God is in the business of judging the lives of believers. 1 cor 11:30 is another very clear example of believers who died the sin unto death in the wilderness for their lack of faithfulness.

Given that the entire first generation of Israelites (minus Joshua and Caleb) didn't go into the promised land should tell the Calvinists something; included Moses himself!! Heb 3:19!

I suppose Calvinists would have to argue that none of the first generation except Joshua and Caleb were saved, and that would have to include Moses!!
 
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FreeGrace2

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All I'm saying is that people who change their minds were never saved.
But upon what basis can that claim be made?? Jesus Himself TELLS us about those who "believe for a while". I do believe that words mean things.

You can't 100 percent deduce from this part of the parable that sprouting seed is indicative of real faith. If anything it is indicative of a false faith because it didn't last.
Well, sure, one can close their mind to that. But there is nothing in Scripture about a "false faith". Jesus didn't use that word. In fact, He SAID the second soil "believed for a while", with nothing to define that as a false faith. It is only a speculation or a preconceived idea that to "believe for a while" means a "false faith".

But here is the definition of a "false faith". Trusting in anything or one for eternal life other than the Lord Jesus Christ. That faith surely is false, and does not save. But, saving faith is faith IN Christ FOR eternal life. 1 Tim 1:16
Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

See, I've given you Scripture that SAYS what I believe.

That's all good but I don't believe he had real genuine faith until he persisted in the faith.
That would be a preconceived idea pressing down on what Scripture says. The man dedicated much of his life to evangelism. One would have to argue that he was a conscious deceiver to have been an evangelist. Not plausible. Towards the end of his life, in an interview he said he "missed Jesus". No hostility, just melencholy.

Fortunately, God's grace is far greater than man's colossal failures and sins! And I have no doubt that C Templeton is very happy about that now!

No - and my number one reason for this is Hebrews 6:4-6 which makes it clear that one who had genuine faith and fell away cannot be restored to repentance.
Why think that not being restored to repentance means loss of salvation?

If such a person does exist there is no hope for them to return to the faith.
The verse says nothing of returning to the faith. Faith and repentance are not the same.

In light of the Hebrews text here I believe the parable of the sower is describing false faith which leaves room for such people to be truly converted in order to start living their lives (as scripture commands) for Christ.
Except there is no such words in the Bible as "false faith", "spurious faith", etc, although many reformed pastors use those words all the time to support their ideas.

When the Bible speaks of faith, it means faith in Christ for salvation. Every time. There are no verses that say otherwise.

If there were verses that actually and clearly SAID what your view claims, I'd have to agree with you. But the opposite is true. There are verses that demonstrate believers who have fallen from the faith.

1 Tim 5:11-15 and younger widows. What do you make of that?
 
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FreeGrace2

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I would say in both senses. It's progressive in that we can never be perfect in this life. It's ultimate in that our sanctification comes about through the power of the Holy Spirit working in us to grow into maturity.
I have a different take on it. I agree with progressive sanctification; it refers to our earthly life and spiritual growth. But spiritual growth is commanded; it's not automatic nor guaranteed. Ultimate sanctification refers to the time when believers receive their resurrection bodies and are "set apart" or saved from the presence of sin. This sanctification IS guaranteed!

The key is - there has to be growth. We just can't say we are Christians and then go sin up a storm.
OK, first, "has to be growth" for what, exactly? For salvation? The Bible doesn't teach that. There does have to be growth for blessings and reward.

Second, it isn't about "just saying we're Christians". That's way too vague, and most Americans would claim they are Christians just on the basis of being American, white, attend church occasionally, are generally "good", and so on.

It seems the hang up is that many are very uncomfortable with the fact that God's children can behave very badly. We see that example in 1 Cor 10. Twice Paul tells the Corinthian believers that the Exodus generation were "examples for us". Is there really a good explanation for WHY unbelievers would be "examples for believers"? I really don't understand how that could be. There is no way any unbeliever can be "an example" for any believer. Apples and oranges.

He actually says that a person is righteous by what they do and not just faith.
Actually, James didn't say "righteous". He said "justified". And he was speaking of being justified in the eyes of others, though he didn't use those exact words. God doesn't need to see our deeds to justify us. But others do need to see our deeds to justify us as believers. How many believers whose lives are such that others react with shock when they hear that they are Christians. Like "no way he could be a Christian; the way he lives, swears, etc".

James' point was that believers need to LIVE OUT their faith so that that others will see their faith. Exactly the point in 2:18.

In light of all the Pauline texts on faith that teach the salvation is through faith alone this to me indicates that faith MUST result in works.
Sure, as in the command "you MUST to it". Nowhere in Scripture is there any verse that says that faith WILL result in works. Just not there. Though many believe that.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FG2 seems to deny that there is such a thing as believing in vain.
Actually I do, and I did deal with 1 Cor 15:2 - by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

eikē (vain)

1) inconsiderably, without purpose, without just cause
2) in vain
2a) without success or effort

It should be clear from the lexicon that to believe "in vain" means "without purpose", or "without success".

If the "purpose" of one's faith isn't what saving faith is, then one has believed in vain. ie: to believe in Christ FOR a new car, bigger house, promotion, etc. Believing in Christ FOR material possessions is believing in vain. iow. ain't gonna happen.

That's also what "without success" means; one will not get what one is believing in Christ FOR, which is anything other than salvation.

So, your apology will be accepted, when offered. :)

No! It is YOU who fails to understand God's grace. You have converted God's grace into licentiousness.
That is absolutely false! I recognize that when God saves someone, they STAY saved. Period. And that is grace ALL THE WAY.

btw, no one can "convert God's grace into licentiousness". Can't happen. But this is what can happen; people can abuse God's grace by claiming that by sinning more, they get "more grace", per Rom 5:20 - The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.

But Paul condemned that idea soundly in Rom 3:8 - And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just.

Otherwise, there is no such thing as converting God's grace into licentiousness.
Correct, there is no such thing. It's properly called "abusing grace", which licentious believers do.

Maybe you can tell us what turning God's grace into licentiousness means.
Just did. Rom 5:20 and 3:8.
 
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extraordinary

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... the Bible clearly teaches that belief in Christ is the ONLY thing that makes a person righteous.
Methinks, we keep goin' around and 'round on the same things!

E.G. I believe you have already seen this ...

“… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous” (1 John 3:7)

Does it need translating, or are you good to go?
.
 
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guuila

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And Charles Templeton was perhaps one such example.

Hymenaeus and Alexander (1 Tim 1:19) are examples of others who have shipwrecked their faith, and for whom they cannot be restored to repentance.

Romans 8:29-30 ESV

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

All those he justified, he also glorified. So Hymenaeus and Alexander were never justified to begin with.
 
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guuila

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Sorry, must have missed it. 1 Jn 3:9,10 is speaking about the believer's new nature in constrast to the old nature. When the believer is living from the new nature, meaning that they are filled with the Spirit (Gal 5:18), and walking by means of the Spirit (Gal 5:16) they cannot sin. Period. No sin can come from the new nature. But, in contrast, when the believer is living from their old nature, the corrupted sin nature, they are grieving the Spirit (Eph 4:30) and quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:18), which means they are sinning.

Many have misunderstood that text to conclude the false doctrine of sinless perfection. Which clearly is untrue. All we have to do is look in the mirror to realize that. ;)

Now, would you please respond the passage I gave you, which is directly germain to the OP?

Thanks.

You're dodging again. The text says those who practice unrighteousness are of the devil, not of God. Yet you're teaching that devil worshippers (pretty sure they're not practicing righteousness) can be of God.
 
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ananda

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The Greek does not contain "else" to modify "no one". The point is that no person can snatch you from the Father's hand. And that includes your own person. There's no other way to take it.
"Else" is my interpretation of the text.

No, neither we ourselves nor any other man or woman or person, animal, angel, demon, nor anything created can take us from the Father's and Messiah's hand. But that does not discount the fact that the text allows for the fact that the Father and Messiah can still let us go.
 
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ananda

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Excuse me, but the data of evidence was the change itself; the added meaning to "pisteuo" of commitment which never existed before in that text. Please check the edition dates. Arndt & Gingrich goes back over 100 years.
I am not privy to the methods Danker used to justify the new addition to the 3rd edition text, but I work under the assumption that new Greek manuscript discoveries since the 2nd edition gave him the support for the new gloss.

The change in BDAG on its own is not evidence of a preconceived "theological agenda". Evidence to support or deny that change such as the presence of or lack thereof of Greek manuscripts behind his change would be appropriate evidence, but there is no such evidence presented in your claim.
 
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ananda

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You're dodging again. The text says those who practice unrighteousness are of the devil, not of God. Yet you're teaching that devil worshippers (pretty sure they're not practicing righteousness) can be of God.
:thumbsup:

It is my observation that many mainstream Christians are perplexed by the Apostle John's writings, preferring, instead, to focus Paul's interpretations.
 
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SwordFall

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It's too bad that an explanation wasn't given for the claim that free will doesn't work with OSAS. Please do. And why I seem not to see it in my own standing in contrast to the argument against it.

Why do I need to give an explanation when your argument is this:

Paradigm? God's alone. When He promises eternal life to one who believes, He gives it the MOMENT they believe. And there are no verses that teach that He takes it back. Ever.


I'll stick with the Bible's definition of grace: unmerited favor. But thanks anyway.
If I didn't know better, I'd say this is a way to blatantly sabotage Christianity by making it sound erroneous.
If you took the time to actually read the rest of the Bible other then your flimsy proof texts, you'd know the true nature of what those verses represent, and it is nothing you are prescribing.

With Osas, if you become apostate are fall away, you were never saved to begin with. You can't have it any other way with Osas, because God does not justify evil. That is why predestination is required for the stupid doctrine to work.

But I can't imagine why anybody would believe in a God whose form of righteousness is sending people to Hell through little to no fault of their own, that's just bad theology and for Christians up their own rear who can't fathom the idea that it's by God that you even came to Him in the first place and that there's no reason other then your good works why God would choose you from a pine cone.

btw, what is so "convenient" for me? Please elaborate.
That you can do whatever you want without consequence because you were lucky enough to have been brought Christianity to you, where others who are virtuous go to Hell for not having joined your religion.

Very convenient.
 
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AndOne

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But upon what basis can that claim be made?? Jesus Himself TELLS us about those who "believe for a while". I do believe that words mean things.
Indeed, words do mean things - "believe for a while" - indicates to me a person who is not a true believer. A true believer keeps believing. Seems simple enough to me.


Well, sure, one can close their mind to that. But there is nothing in Scripture about a "false faith". Jesus didn't use that word. In fact, He SAID the second soil "believed for a while", with nothing to define that as a false faith. It is only a speculation or a preconceived idea that to "believe for a while" means a "false faith".
IMO its a speculation to believe it means a genuine faith.

But here is the definition of a "false faith". Trusting in anything or one for eternal life other than the Lord Jesus Christ. That faith surely is false, and does not save. But, saving faith is faith IN Christ FOR eternal life. 1 Tim 1:16
Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

See, I've given you Scripture that SAYS what I believe.
Not really - I'm pretty sure Paul was referring to himself being saved to begin with. Like on the Damascus Road.


Why think that not being restored to repentance means loss of salvation?
Because repentance is part of salvation - Acts 2:38


1 Tim 5:11-15 and younger widows. What do you make of that?
In light of Hebrews 6:4-6 I make it to be pretty horrifying.
 
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AndOne

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OK, first, "has to be growth" for what, exactly? For salvation? The Bible doesn't teach that. There does have to be growth for blessings and reward.
Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that there has to be growth in order to be saved. I'm saying that true faith always results in growth. That's a big difference. This is why Peter admonishes us to check to confirm our election and calling in 2 Peter 1:3-11.

Actually, James didn't say "righteous". He said "justified". And he was speaking of being justified in the eyes of others, though he didn't use those exact words.
Please see 2:23

God doesn't need to see our deeds to justify us. But others do need to see our deeds to justify us as believers. How many believers whose lives are such that others react with shock when they hear that they are Christians. Like "no way he could be a Christian; the way he lives, swears, etc".
Again - you have misunderstood me. I am not saying our deeds justify us. Never - no how - no way. I am saying our justification always results in deeds which is why we are admonished to check to make sure our election and calling are true by Peter. There is no such thing as a believer living in sin - or if he is in it he is fighting like crazy to get out of it.


James' point was that believers need to LIVE OUT their faith so that that others will see their faith. Exactly the point in 2:18.
Problem is you can't stop reading at verse 18.


Sure, as in the command "you MUST to it". Nowhere in Scripture is there any verse that says that faith WILL result in works. Just not there. Though many believe that.

But there are plenty of verses that say faith is accompanied by works (which I have demonstrated) - which pretty much means the same thing as resulting in works. Remember - I'm not saying works are required for salvation. The issue is what does real faith look like.
 
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AndOne

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Methinks, we keep goin' around and 'round on the same things!

E.G. I believe you have already seen this ...

“… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous” (1 John 3:7)

Does it need translating, or are you good to go?
.

Yea - I think you and I might be on the same page in regards to holiness... Check my interaction with FG2 and see if you agree or not. Look forward to see what you think.
 
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OzSpen

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:thumbsup:

It is my observation that many mainstream Christians are perplexed by the Apostle John's writings, preferring, instead, to focus Paul's interpretations.
Some of the theological liberals I read struggle with the mix of the theological and historical in John's writings. They want to deny the historicity of aspects of John's Gospel because he engages in theological reasoning to which they object, e.g. Christ's deity, bodily resurrection, miracles, etc.

However the latter examples seem to most often relate to their anti-supernatural worldviews.

Oz
 
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