Free Grace Theology - The theology that allows devil worshippers into heaven

[FreeGrace2]

I think this is contradictory. How can you persist in unbelief if you have already believed?

People change their minds. Jesus noted that in the second soil. They gladly received the Word of God, and "believed for a while", but because of various life's pressures, they fell away. However, plants DID sprout from the seed, which is a clear indication of new life from God's Word. But they didn't persist in faith because of the various pressures of life. No different than what we see today among evangelicals.

If you have already believed you will not persist in unbelief and Romans 8:12-17 is clear that a believer will live according to the Spirit and not the flesh.

If your understanding that to "persist in unbelief" is someone who never believed in the first place, I'll sure accept that.

But Charles Templeton is an example of a believer who fell away from believing. There were some OT passages that he just couldn't reconcile in his mind. It let him to conclude that God didn't really exist. But he did note late in his life that he "missed Jesus".

My take on it is that someone who persists in unbelief was never saved.

Are you willing to accept that one may believe, but later, like the second soil, falls away from believing? And then persist in that unbelief?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Careful - don't want to address me directly - the new rules say not to.... (j/k this is going to get silly ..)

Your point is well taken.

Scripture is also clear that in addition to eternal life God gives the believer sanctification.

Right. Aware of sanctification in 2 different senses? Progressive and ultimate?

Certain things follow belief as is clearly pointed in Romans 7:12-17 (as I mentioned) as well as in James 2:14-26.

I don't see anything in James 2 that are a guarantee of "certain things" following. I see James emphasizing that one should live their faith through deeds or works in order for others to be able to see their faith. esp 2:18

I'm not saying that works bring about salvation - but salvation does bring about works and a Christian who doesn't exhibit any might not be in reality saved.

I go back to the soils. Neither the second or third soils produced any fruit, yet there were plants in both soils, the indication that the seed (word of God) had produced life. But due to pressures and distractions of life, neither soil matured and produced fruit.

Also - there is no scripture that teaches specifically that a person who believes and then stops believing and then believes again was ever truly saved to begin with.

Actually, there is no Scripture that teaches that a person who believes and later quits believing isn't saved. ie: second soil. There was no fruit, but there were plants; indicative that the seed (Word of God) produced new life!

 

[SwordFall]

Who worships the devil nowadays besides social idiots in goth outfits?

It takes a special kind of stupid to worship Satan, because it involves the knowledge that an almighty god exists.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I never said they lose their salvation. Where'd you get that?

From you. (sorry about using "that" word). Your definition of "after having faith". Because of your definition, ol' Bob was saved at that moment, just like all the other people who believe in Christ for salvation.

Yet, your view is that poor ol' Bob won't go to heaven because he became a bady boy and left the faith, and even worse, became a devil worshiper.

If Bob, who had believed in Christ for salvation, won't go to heaven, then he had to lose the gift of salvation that God had given to him WHEN he believed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So devil worshippers go to heaven in Free Graceism. Thanks for confirming the OP.

If devil worshipers have believed in Jesus for salvation (your own definition of "having faith"), then why are you so shocked that God still keeps His promise?

Please explain why that is so distasteful. Should God go back on His promise and snatch eternal life away from those who behave so badly? Would that be an act of grace, or what?

 

[SwordFall]

If Bob, who had believed in Christ for salvation, won't go to heaven, then he had to lose the gift of salvation that God had given to him WHEN he believed.

Free will just doesn't work with OSAS, it's too bad you don't see it in your own standing in contrast to the argument against it.

What sort of paradigm is it that a wicked person who once accepted Christ should go to Heaven while the actual virtuous go to Hell?

That is an absurd idea of 'grace', it's not really grace at all- it's ridiculous. Isn't God supposed to be righteous, the righteous judge?
It is however mightily convenient for those such as yourself, very suspiciously so.

 

[guuila]

From you. (sorry about using "that" word). Your definition of "after having faith". Because of your definition, ol' Bob was saved at that moment, just like all the other people who believe in Christ for salvation.

Yet, your view is that poor ol' Bob won't go to heaven because he became a bady boy and left the faith, and even worse, became a devil worshiper.

If Bob, who had believed in Christ for salvation, won't go to heaven, then he had to lose the gift of salvation that God had given to him WHEN he believed.

Either that, or the faith he had wasn't saving faith.

 

[guuila]

If devil worshipers have believed in Jesus for salvation (your own definition of "having faith"), then why are you so shocked that God still keeps His promise?

Please explain why that is so distasteful. Should God go back on His promise and snatch eternal life away from those who behave so badly? Would that be an act of grace, or what?

Just weird to think devil worshippers will be in heaven. But good to know that's what you believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

1 John 3:9-10 ESV

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

I wonder if devil worshippers who burn churches and kill Christians are practicing righteousness or practicing sin... Hmm...

I'd be pretty sure those ones never ever believed in Jesus for salvation.

But the real problem is your view that one who has believed in Jesus for salvation, which is the definition of saving faith, will not go to heaven if they fall from the faith and turn to Satan worship.

Oh, btw, that reminds me of what Paul warned Timothy about. In 1 Tim 5, Paul addresses the proper treatment of widows in the church. That's the context for pastor Tim.

11 As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. 12Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge. 13Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to. 14So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. 15 Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.
Since the context here is in the church is your view that Paul was teaching that such widows "turn aside to follow Satan", they won't go to heaven?

Is your view that Paul was telling Tim that such widows who would "turn aside to follow Satan" because "their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ" aren't going to heaven?

If they weren't really believers, why didn't Paul emphasize to Tim to evangelize these unbelievers? He didn't. Because of their tendency of sensual desires to overcome their dedication to Christ, Paul in fact counseled young widows to marry, have children and manage their homes well. Doesn't sound as thought Paul was concerned that they were either unbelievers, or that they would not go to heaven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Free will just doesn't work with OSAS, it's too bad you don't see it in your own standing in contrast to the argument against it.

It's too bad that an explanation wasn't given for the claim that free will doesn't work with OSAS. Please do. And why I seem not to see it in my own standing in contrast to the argument against it.

What sort of paradigm is it that a wicked person who once accepted Christ should go to Heaven while the actual virtuous go to Hell?

Paradigm? God's alone. When He promises eternal life to one who believes, He gives it the MOMENT they believe. And there are no verses that teach that He takes it back. Ever.

That is an absurd idea of 'grace', it's not really grace at all- it's ridiculous. Isn't God supposed to be righteous, the righteous judge?
It is however mightily convenient for those such as yourself, very suspiciously so.

I'll stick with the Bible's definition of grace: unmerited favor. But thanks anyway.

btw, what is so "convenient" for me? Please elaborate.

 

[guuila]

I'd be pretty sure those ones never ever believed in Jesus for salvation.

But the real problem is your view that one who has believed in Jesus for salvation, which is the definition of saving faith, will not go to heaven if they fall from the faith and turn to Satan worship.

Oh, btw, that reminds me of what Paul warned Timothy about. In 1 Tim 5, Paul addresses the proper treatment of widows in the church. That's the context for pastor Tim.

11 As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. 12Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge. 13Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to. 14So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. 15 Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.
Since the context here is in the church is your view that Paul was teaching that such widows "turn aside to follow Satan", they won't go to heaven?

Is your view that Paul was telling Tim that such widows who would "turn aside to follow Satan" because "their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ" aren't going to heaven?

If they weren't really believers, why didn't Paul emphasize to Tim to evangelize these unbelievers? He didn't. Because of their tendency of sensual desires to overcome their dedication to Christ, Paul in fact counseled young widows to marry, have children and manage their homes well. Doesn't sound as thought Paul was concerned that they were either unbelievers, or that they would not go to heaven.

Are you going to address the 1 John text? Or continue dodging? If the latter just let me know so I can make better use of my time.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Either that, or the faith he had wasn't saving faith.

But your definition was the saving kind.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Just weird to think devil worshippers will be in heaven. But good to know that's what you believe.

Why the obviously false insinuation that all will be? Only those (if any believer ever did become a devil worshiper) who have believed in Christ.

btw, review 1 Tim 5:11-15 for Paul's take on widows in whose sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, and they turn aside to follow the devil.

Yet, no indication from Paul that they weren't saved, or weren't believers, or weren't going to heaven.

So, you're just going to have to get used to the idea that those of God's children who behaved badly will be in heaven with you.

 

[guuila]

Why the obviously false insinuation that all will be? Only those (if any believer ever did become a devil worshiper) who have believed in Christ.

btw, review 1 Tim 5:11-15 for Paul's take on widows in whose sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, and they turn aside to follow the devil.

Yet, no indication from Paul that they weren't saved, or weren't believers, or weren't going to heaven.

So, you're just going to have to get used to the idea that those of God's children who behaved badly will be in heaven with you.

I didn't insinuate that. Non sequitur on your part bud. But good to know you believe devil worshippers who believed in Jesus one time will be in heaven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Are you going to address the 1 John text? Or continue dodging? If the latter just let me know so I can make better use of my time.

Sorry, must have missed it. 1 Jn 3:9,10 is speaking about the believer's new nature in constrast to the old nature. When the believer is living from the new nature, meaning that they are filled with the Spirit (Gal 5:18), and walking by means of the Spirit (Gal 5:16) they cannot sin. Period. No sin can come from the new nature. But, in contrast, when the believer is living from their old nature, the corrupted sin nature, they are grieving the Spirit (Eph 4:30) and quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:18), which means they are sinning.

Many have misunderstood that text to conclude the false doctrine of sinless perfection. Which clearly is untrue. All we have to do is look in the mirror to realize that.

Now, would you please respond the passage I gave you, which is directly germain to the OP?

But the real problem is your view that one who has believed in Jesus for salvation, which is the definition of saving faith, will not go to heaven if they fall from the faith and turn to Satan worship.

Oh, btw, that reminds me of what Paul warned Timothy about. In 1 Tim 5, Paul addresses the proper treatment of widows in the church. That's the context for pastor Tim.

11 As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. 12Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge. 13Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to. 14So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. 15 Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.
Since the context here is in the church is your view that Paul was teaching that such widows "turn aside to follow Satan", they won't go to heaven?

Is your view that Paul was telling Tim that such widows who would "turn aside to follow Satan" because "their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ" aren't going to heaven?

If they weren't really believers, why didn't Paul emphasize to Tim to evangelize these unbelievers? He didn't. Because of their tendency of sensual desires to overcome their dedication to Christ, Paul in fact counseled young widows to marry, have children and manage their homes well. Doesn't sound as thought Paul was concerned that they were either unbelievers, or that they would not go to heaven.

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I didn't insinuate that. Non sequitur on your part bud. But good to know you believe devil worshippers who believed in Jesus one time will be in heaven.

Oh, so how many times must one believe in Jesus to guarantee that they will go to heaven? Twice? Thrice? What?

 

[OzSpen]

Are you willing to accept that one may believe, but later, like the second soil, falls away from believing? And then persist in that unbelief?

I have not spoken to a TULIP Calvinist who accepts that the person who 'falls away' was ever a believer in the first place.

You gave an excellent example with Charles Templeton as a believer who fell away.

Oz

 

[AndOne]

People change their minds. Jesus noted that in the second soil. They gladly received the Word of God, and "believed for a while", but because of various life's pressures, they fell away. However, plants DID sprout from the seed, which is a clear indication of new life from God's Word. But they didn't persist in faith because of the various pressures of life. No different than what we see today among evangelicals.

All I'm saying is that people who change their minds were never saved. You can't 100 percent deduce from this part of the parable that sprouting seed is indicative of real faith. If anything it is indicative of a false faith because it didn't last.

If your understanding that to "persist in unbelief" is someone who never believed in the first place, I'll sure accept that.

But Charles Templeton is an example of a believer who fell away from believing. There were some OT passages that he just couldn't reconcile in his mind. It let him to conclude that God didn't really exist. But he did note late in his life that he "missed Jesus".

That's all good but I don't believe he had real genuine faith until he persisted in the faith.

Are you willing to accept that one may believe, but later, like the second soil, falls away from believing? And then persist in that unbelief?

No - and my number one reason for this is Hebrews 6:4-6 which makes it clear that one who had genuine faith and fell away cannot be restored to repentance. If such a person does exist there is no hope for them to return to the faith. In light of the Hebrews text here I believe the parable of the sower is describing false faith which leaves room for such people to be truly converted in order to start living their lives (as scripture commands) for Christ.

 

[OzSpen]

No - and my number one reason for this is Hebrews 6:4-6 which makes it clear that one who had genuine faith and fell away cannot be restored to repentance. If such a person does exist there is no hope for them to return to the faith. In light of the Hebrews text here I believe the parable of the sower is describing false faith which leaves room for such people to be truly converted in order to start living their lives (as scripture commands) for Christ.

And Charles Templeton was perhaps one such example.

Hymenaeus and Alexander (1 Tim 1:19) are examples of others who have shipwrecked their faith, and for whom they cannot be restored to repentance.

 

[AndOne]

Right. Aware of sanctification in 2 different senses? Progressive and ultimate?

I would say in both senses. It's progressive in that we can never be perfect in this life. It's ultimate in that our sanctification comes about through the power of the Holy Spirit working in us to grow into maturity. The key is - there has to be growth. We just can't say we are Christians and then go sin up a storm.

I don't see anything in James 2 that are a guarantee of "certain things" following. I see James emphasizing that one should live their faith through deeds or works in order for others to be able to see their faith. esp 2:18

He actually says that a person is righteous by what they do and not just faith. In light of all the Pauline texts on faith that teach the salvation is through faith alone this to me indicates that faith MUST result in works.