Free Grace Theology - The theology that allows devil worshippers into heaven

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extraordinary

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Yea - I think you and I might be on the same page in regards to holiness...
Check my interaction with FG2 and see if you agree or not. Look forward to see what you think.
Don't need to study all of your interactions with the FG2!
I've read enough of his beliefs, thanks very much.
Of course, not everything he says is untrue (same with the cults/sects).
But, if you stand against his doctrine, I stand with you.

The idea that one is guaranteed eternal life before he/she dies is against many Scripture verses!
I.E. salvation is life-long process, which God has somewhat hidden due to its' being so unpopular!
.
 
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ananda

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Or, much more likely, his agenda was to provide support for those who teach Lordship Salvation, and needed a source to quote from. :)
Like I said, his gloss is not altogether unprecedented, but is instead witnessed to by other lexicons.

What evidence does Danker bring to the table to justify a change from over 100 years of published material in Arndt & Gingrich?
I admit that I am not sure, but like I said, there are other witnesses to Danker's gloss.

What evidence do you have that Danker inserted his agenda, without support, into the reference?
 
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extraordinary

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... love, faith, trust, faithfulness, and diligent obedience (basically, a true relationship)
with and for Messiah and YHVH is required for salvation ...
Yes, and this should be obvious from a somewhat deeper understanding of the NT!
However, most prefer to languish in the misunderstood easy-believism verses, esp. in John's gospel.
To believe (pisteou) must include obedience for the whole NT to make any sense at all.
.
 
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ananda

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Yes, and this should be obvious from a somewhat deeper understanding of the NT!
However, most prefer to languish in the misunderstood easy-believism verses, esp. in John's gospel.
To believe (pisteou) must include obedience for the whole NT to make any sense at all.
.
I think the main issue is with our mainstream translations. They don't completely communicate the whole meaning (aspect, tenses, alternative meanings) of the underlying Hebrew or Greek, and whole theologies and denominations are built on those faulty translations.
 
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extraordinary

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In a sense, I agree with you ... I believe we can do things which causes Them to release us.
Perhaps, you might eventually come around to seeing that ...
even with copious amounts of God's chastisement ... in the end, man's free will is King!

I.E. God does NOT force us to do anything outside of our own free will.
To do so would make us robots!

Note: let us not forget that all of God's angels also have free will,
and we know what happened to 1/3 of those poor guys!
They were deceived just enough ... to follow Lucifer on the path to hell.
Sorry, I almost forgot the lake of fire!
.
 
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ananda

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Perhaps, you might eventually come around to seeing that ...
even with copious amounts of God's chastisement ... in the end, man's free will is King!

I.E. God does NOT force us to do anything outside of our own free will.
To do so would make us robots!

Note: let us not forget that all of God's angels also have free will,
and we know what happened to 1/3 of those poor guys!
They were deceived just enough ... to follow Lucifer on the path to hell.
.
I agree :thumbsup:
 
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AndOne

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Don't need to study all of your interactions with the FG2!
I've read enough of his beliefs, thanks very much.
Of course, not everything he says is untrue (same with the cults/sects).
But, if you stand against his doctrine, I stand with you.

The idea that one is guaranteed eternal life before he/she dies is against many Scripture verses!
I.E. salvation is life-long process, which God has somewhat hidden due to its' being so unpopular!
.

Actually scripture is fairly clear that true faith - real faith - will result in salvation that endures into eternity.
 
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extraordinary

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Jn 10:28,29 only promises that nobody else can snatch His people out of YHVH's or Messiah's Hands
... This verse does not guarantee eternal life for all who only "believes".
Finally got back to this ...

John 10:27-29
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;
neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all;
and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.”


Note those who are guaranteed eternal life:
1 -- they hear Jesus' voice (do you?)
2 -- Jesus knows them (does He know you?)
3 -- they follow Jesus (do you?) ... What exactly does following Jesus include?
In the context of dozens of NT verses, it includes obedience to Jesus' commands.

IMO, this is a special group ... and Good Luck being in this particular group!

Just came to me ...
There may be sheep runnin' around in Jesus' flock who are NOT His sheep,
i.e. who do NOT fulfill the above 3 requirements.
These groupies would be the indistinguishable tares mixed within the wheat.
Perhaps, in Jesus' "flock", there are His sheep and there are other sheep!
.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Ironically - there is nowhere in scripture that gives a clear explanation of what short term "saving faith" is.
Actually, there is nowhere in Scripture that places any kind of "time frame" on faith that makes it saving.

In fact, faith of any kind, including "saving faith" must have 2 things: an object and a purpose (why one is believing).

In saving faith, the object MUST be Jesus Christ, period. No one else. Acts 4:12.

The purpose MUST be FOR eternal life. That's the purpose for believing in Him. That He gives eternal life (salvation) to all who believe in Him.

We see that specifically stated in 1 Tim 1:16 -
Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

What is in scripture are vast descriptions of what saving faith looks like and none of them include a description of a falling away and then coming back again.
Why would any description need to include "falling away"? In fact, Scripture is clear with warnings of "continuing in the faith", per Acts 11:23 "remain true to the Lord", 14:22 "continue in the faith" and Col 1:23 "continue in the faith".

The command is clear to "continue in the faith". That in itself proves that continuing in the faith is neither guaranteed nor automatic. One must persevere to continue in the faith.

In fact any description given of someone actually falling away includes them not being able to come back.
No, only the Hebrews passage, and that wa about repentance, not faith.

So I would say that its a preconceived idea to assume that a temporary faith can be scriptural
Since Jesus said it Himself, it IS Scriptural. Otherwise he wouldn't have made note of it.

[/QUOTE]Why is it speculation? I provided scripture to explain why.[/QUOTE]
Because to think that 'believe for a while' means 'not saved' IS speculation. The verses you provided do not say it is. And Jesus didn't indicate it is. What He did indicate is that those who's faith doesn't persevere won't produce fruit.

In relation to this topic of conversation false faith is a faith that does not last - if you stop believing in Jesus you never believed in Him.
There is no such concept in Scripture of a "false faith". If you remain true to what words mean, a "false" faith is a phony faith, meaning that what you are believing in won't deliver on the purpose of your faith. That's a false faith.

Muslims believe that Allah will provide 72 black haired virgins for any who die in jihad. that's a false faith. The object of their faith will NOT provide what they are believing in him for.

Anyone who believes in Jesus Christ for eternal life (1 Tim 1:16) will receive it. Because God promises it.

In addition to Hebrew 6:4-6 we have 2 Peter 2:21-22. Another definition is found in 1 John 1:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
Saying "not of us" could mean any number of things, including having a different theology, just as Arminians, Calvinists, and Free Grace people have different theologies. Doesn't mean those who went out weren't saved at all.

And none of those verses says that a faith that doesn't last isn't saving.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Because we are not perfect and still sin. I probably shouldn't have said it always results in deeds - but it does always result in sanctification which will produce fruit. Hence I should have said it WILL produce deeds.
I don't see any real difference between "always results in deeds" and "it WILL produce deeds". They are saying the same thing. Since the NT is full of commands regarding deeds, it should be clear that producing deeds isn't automatic nor guaranteed.

But are these folks taken home because of a lack of faith?
Yes, for the Exodus generation. Heb 3:19 says so. And that included Moses himself! Plus the ENTIRE first generation of Jews, minus 2.

Did they loose faith and stop believing in Jesus? Christians are not perfect - they will and do get punished for sin.
As unappetizing it may be for one to accept it, the fact is that once God saves, regenerates, forgives, justifies, and adopts, that is permanent; regardless of what happens after. There are plenty of warning verses that refer to loss of blessings in time and rewards in eternity.

Good. Which proves that deeds are not guaranteed nor automatic.
 
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FreeGrace2

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1 John 3:6-9 ESV

No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

Okay thanks John. So does that mean if a person worships the devil as a practice they've NEVER known God?

Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

Is there one among us trying to deceive us by teaching you can actually practice sin and be of God?

The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Okay so if God's seed abides in a person, he can't keep on sinning like someone among us keeps asserting he can? Interesting.
If one takes this passage literally, then one will be forced to accept that true believers stop sinning. Have you stopped sinning completely?

John is speaking of the new nature, the one God regenerated, and in which the Holy Spirit resides.

When the believer is "filled with the Spirit" (Eph 5:18) and "walking by means of the Spirit" (Gal 5:16), they cannot sin. Period.

When the believer is "grieving the Spirit" (Eph 4:30) and "quenching the Spirit" (1 Thess 5:18), they ARE sinning, but which doesn't come from the regenerated new nature.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Don't need to study all of your interactions with the FG2!
I've read enough of his beliefs, thanks very much.
Of course, not everything he says is untrue (same with the cults/sects).
But, if you stand against his doctrine, I stand with you.

The idea that one is guaranteed eternal life before he/she dies is against many Scripture verses!
I.E. salvation is life-long process, which God has somewhat hidden due to its' being so unpopular!
.
Your final statement is quite illuminating! That is laughable that God would hide something which is seen as "so unpopular". ^_^

John 4:24 refutes that. We must worship God in TRUTH. He never hides truth. Ever. 2 Cor 1:13 also refutes that.
 
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G

guuila

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If one takes this passage literally, then one will be forced to accept that true believers stop sinning. Have you stopped sinning completely?

I never once even implied that's the interpretation I've taken. Why do you continually build straw men? That would make John contradict himself when he says, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 ESV)

John is speaking of the new nature, the one God regenerated, and in which the Holy Spirit resides.

When the believer is "filled with the Spirit" (Eph 5:18) and "walking by means of the Spirit" (Gal 5:16), they cannot sin. Period.

When the believer is "grieving the Spirit" (Eph 4:30) and "quenching the Spirit" (1 Thess 5:18), they ARE sinning, but which doesn't come from the regenerated new nature.

You still haven't addressed the text. You're teaching that saved people can practice sin. John says that kind of person is of the devil. Think I'll go with John on this one. Nice try though. John says 'do not be deceived' and teaches doctrine contrary to what you're asserting. Might wanna think about that.
 
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extraordinary

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Actually, there is nowhere in Scripture that places any kind of "time frame" on faith that makes it saving.
Is there anyone who does not think it's possible to put this guy to rest ... once and for all?

Please refer to my new thread, which is on its' way ...
.
 
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AndOne

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Is there anyone who does not think it's possible to put this guy to rest ... once and for all?

Please refer to my new thread, which is on its' way ...
.

Just FYI - you might want to check out the report free thread going on....
 
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