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Free Grace Theology - The theology that allows devil worshippers into heaven

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by guuila, Dec 20, 2013.

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  1. guuila

    guuila Guest

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    There is a system of theology out there called Free Grace theology, which teaches that it doesn't matter how bad a person sins, nor how long. If they believed at least once in their life, they are saved no matter what. There's no guarantee of sanctification in this system.

    For example, little Johnny decided to believe in Jesus when he was eight years old. Little Johnny got bored with Jesus when he turned nine and decided to worship Satan. Now, Johnny is 80 years old, and is a full blown devil worshipper. Johnny loves Satan and wants to be with him. Unfortunately for Johnny, God is not going to give him what he wants. God is going to force Johnny into heaven against his will when he dies because of that one time when he believed when he was eight. I guess Johnny will get what he wants after all, since heaven will actually be hell for him since he hates God and loves Satan.
     
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  2. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Disingenuousness, to the max!
    From his opening salvo, it appears that griff believes that faith alone isn't enough for salvation. And it seems to bother him a great deal that God would express His grace in such a way. Apparently, to griff, if one who has believed, later falls away from the faith (which the Scriptures explicitly acknowledge as a possibility), they can't still be saved!! Though he vigorously debates on the side of Calvinism, he sounds much more like an Arminian than a Calvinist here.

    The Bible is clear; one is saved WHEN they believe. Jn 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has (present tense) eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
    So, apparently, griff takes issue His Lord and Savior. This demonstrates a failure to understand God's grace.

    Another disingenuous statement. The Bible speaks of sanctification in two senses. Here, he ignores that. There is an ultimate sanctification, whereby each believer receives a resurrection body that is not corrupted by sin.

    Yet, here on earth, the thrust of teaching on the Christian life is for each believer to become Christ-like. When one makes such disingenuous statements as seen in the OP, isn't what one would call "Christ-like". He was never disingenuous. He always told the truth.

    So, for the life of the believer on earth, the goal is to become more Christ-like, which is to say, to be holy and blameless, which is the purpose of election as stated in Eph 1:4 - just as He chose us (believers, per v.19) in Him before the foundation of the world, that (purpose clause) we would be holy and blameless before Him.

    We see this principle of progressive sanctification in Paul's letter to the Galatians, in 4:19 - My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you-

    It is clear that Paul didn't think his audience in Galatia had become Christ-like.

    Sadly, this is just an emotional pitch designed for shock value to make the teaching of the Word of God out to be horrible.

    The fact that it is totally by grace that griff himself will enter heaven should help him realize that regardless of how one of God's children behaves, it is still by grace that they too will enter heaven.

    This type of post seems to suggest that when any of God's children, saved by faith, later fall from grace or faith, that they no longer deserve heaven.

    Does griff deserve heaven? Of course not. No believer deserves heaven.

    But griff seems to be pushing a doctrine of loss of salvation here. Apparently he doesn't believe that once God saves a person by GRACE through FAITH, that person is secure in God's power. If that child of God later rebels, God just cuts him off, per the reasoning from griff.

    So, where in Scripture does griff get this from? He provides no evidence or support for his view, which he is free to espouse.

    otoh, there are many verses that clearly indicate that believers can continue to behave badly, and the doctrine of the "sin unto death" in 1 Jn 5:16 is evidence enough that believers who continue in a life of sin may face the ultimate discipline; removal from earth and forfeiture of eternal rewards.

    1 Jn 5:16 - If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.

    2 Jn 8 - Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.

    We see evidence for the sin unto death in the explanation by Paul in 1 Cor 11:30 - For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. We know the word for "sleep" is a euphemism for physical death.

    We also see evidence for the sin unto death in the previous chapter, the Exodus Generation. 10:5 - Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low (physical death of entire 1st generation except Joshua and Caleb) in the wilderness.

    Then, what does Paul say? v.6 - Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.

    And he repeats it in v.11 - Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

    So, the death of the entire 1st generation of Jews out of Egypt during the 40 year wanderings is an example to us, that being believers.

    How can anyone believe that unbelievers can be "an example" for believers? That would be like comparing apples and oranges.

    The point in ch 10 was Israel's lack of continuing faith in God to provide for them, and Paul makes very clear in v.3-4 that they were believers:
    "3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ."

    What is clear is that rebelling believers may face the sin unto death, or maximum divine discipline.

    But it seems that griff is unaware of any of this. And he clearly believes that faith alone is not what really saves. A believer must persevere in order to stay saved.

    None of which is found in Scripture.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2013
  3. Charis kai Dunamis

    Charis kai Dunamis χάρις καὶ δύναμις

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    The ultimate issue here is what role repentance plays. Some see repentance as unnecessary for salvation by logical necessity. One can have "faith alone" without any repentance from sin, and they will be saved. But we know that is not what the Bible teaches, and it wasn't what the Reformers meant either in their teaching of Sola Fide.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2013
  4. extraordinary

    extraordinary Newbie trainee

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    There must be more than 100 Scriptures which teach against OSAS.
    But, most of them do not specifically mention losing eternal life, going to hell, gaining perdition, etc.
    And most of them do not specifically mention what believers must do to gain eternal life.
    These demands would be too difficult for new believers to handle.

    These demands must be taught by the Holy Spirit to those who are being led by Him.

    Who teaches to count the cost of building the necessary successful strong tower (Luke 14:25-33)?

    Who discerns and teaches Paul's incredibly tactful method of warning believers of their part in the salvation process,
    i.e. their necessary progressive sanctification ... not to mention his incredibly crafty wording?

    The Lord has seen to it that His warnings and their explanations are in Scripture, but they are veiled to most readers.
    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2013
  5. Charis kai Dunamis

    Charis kai Dunamis χάρις καὶ δύναμις

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    Why don't you start a thread for each of them, and we'll see whether your presupposition stands or falls. :D

    I say 'each of them' because throwing a wall of Scriptures as proof texts all out of context does nothing for your point. Every text needs to be looked at and interpreted with care.
     
  6. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    The gospel of John is the only dedicated evangelistic book in the Bible: 20:31 - but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

    Can you find any reference to repentance (turning from sin) being mentioned in John's gospel, which was written that people "may believe that Jesus is the Christ, and that believing would have life in His name"?

    Turning from sin is a human effort. If that is tied to a requirement for salvation, that becomes a works based system of salvation. That's what the RCC basically believes. God did His part, now, man must do his part (sacraments, etc) for salvation. Maybe rather than Arminian, griff is more closely associated with the RCC. It's hard to tell.

    please provide verses that teach that one must turn from sins in order to be saved.

    Apparently you believe that man does have to put some effort into being saved.

    Why did Paul answer the jailer's very specific question of "what MUST I DO to be saved?" with "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved" instead of "believe and repent of your sins, and you will be saved"?

    I await verses that SAY what you and griff believe.
     
  7. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    My sentiments, exactly! But the OP still strongly suggests that one is not secure in their salvation, if, at a later time, they fall from the faith.
     
  8. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist

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    :thumbsup: It is my belief that this is the reason behind the downfall of many "Christian nations" over the past few decades. The idea that sanctification is largely irrelevant to one's own salvation, resulting in extremely weak, selfish, fearful, unloving, Sunday-only "Christians". This was spearheaded by the new-evangelical free-grace movement of the 1940s and 1950s, and persists to this day; this has destroyed civilized culture and society (especially in the u.S.).

    If anything, the results of this theology disqualifies it in my eyes.
     
  9. extraordinary

    extraordinary Newbie trainee

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    In the past few months, I have produced several lists of these verses.
    Sure, a few verses can probably be explained away, made excuses for, etc.
    But, many dozens cannot be denied.

    The easy-believism verses come first to catch the little fishes.
    Reading the Bible is next.
    Therein are warnings, such as: count the cost of being Jesus disciple.
    Next, the Holy Spirit starts revealing exactly what part the disciple must play in his salvation process.

    Demanding stuff indeed ... mucho too heavy for the lukewarm believer.
    Believe me ... this is serious stuff.
    And mucho too scary for the Laodicean churches to preach/teach.
    Give me a break ... they would lose half (or more) of their congregations!
    Even if pastors knew the truth, they still have to pay off their expensive mortgages!

    There are 15 verses that state clearly ...
    the believer must endure with his faith until the end of his life to attain eternal life.
    Even this by itself absolutely kills OSAS.
    I.E. truly, these 15 teach us ... No one knows who will be given eternal life!
    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2013
  10. Charis kai Dunamis

    Charis kai Dunamis χάρις καὶ δύναμις

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    Here is the unsubstantiated presupposition that will dictate your refusal to listen to what Jesus said about faith and repentance.

    Mark 1:14-15

    "Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
     
  11. Charis kai Dunamis

    Charis kai Dunamis χάρις καὶ δύναμις

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    Except you know that that is not what Griff is proposing, that one can lose their salvation. Positive intent can go a long way.
     
  12. Charis kai Dunamis

    Charis kai Dunamis χάρις καὶ δύναμις

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    Can you please just start a thread with a single verse? Rhetoric apart from any relevance to the actual text doesn't mean much to me.
     
  13. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    The problem is not free grace theology. It is pastors who have FAILED to properly teach that sanctification is a command for all believers and that failure to obey and grow spiritually, which is what progressive sanctification is about, will result in loss of blessings during our life, and loss of eternal rewards, and facing divine discipline from God's hand. These are crucial doctrines that have been largely ignored and replaced with the error that all believers will persevere, which basically dismisses those who have believed, and for whatever reason (2nd and 3rd soil conditions) fail to persevere.

    For such believers, what is the remedy? If they have believed, what is left to believe? Nothing.

    When the whole counsel of God is not taught, all kinds of problems emerge.

    Also, free grace teaching strongly emphasizes the NEED for spiritual growth, which is progressive sanctification. It is NOT necessary for salvation, or John would have emphasized it in his gospel account. But it is absolutely necessary for blessings and eternal rewards. None of which are guaranteed.

    What is guaranteed is that one is saved by GRACE through FAITH.
     
  14. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    So, then, you believe that John got it all wrong. Gotcha.

    Sure. He did want people to repent. I haven't denied that at all. But please find anywhere that turning from sin results in salvation. Or you don't have a point and the OP is wrong.
     
  15. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Please read the OP with more care. He acknowledged that one believes and then falls away from believing. Does he believe that one IS saved WHEN one believes, or not? I gave Jn 5:24 as proof that one is saved WHEN one believes. So it is clear that from what he has posted, he doesn't believe that one's salvation is secure. Only IF one perseveres in the faith.



    Positive intent can go a long way.[/QUOTE]
     
  16. extraordinary

    extraordinary Newbie trainee

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    Okay, if I must, I'll re-post a short list of verses, which condemns everyone on da planet to whom they apply.
    .
     
  17. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist

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    The part I bolded was the point I was trying to make regarding free-grace theology:

    If sanctification is not necessary for salvation (in the eyes of free-grace supporters), then it is optional.

    Even if a free-gracer preaches that sanctification results in blessings, eternal rewards, and prevents divine discipline ... those "secondary things" do not greatly matter to those who hear and take to heart the free-grace message (in my experience). They focus virtually exclusively on the most important point: salvation, which you've guaranteed to them. As long as they possess the prize at the end of the rainbow, everything else drops to the wayside, and they'll do what they want to do. They don't care to "spiritually grow", as long as they have salvation.
     
  18. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist

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    The problem here is with the translation, in my opinion.

    Yes, most mainstream translations of this verse (Jn 20:31) says something similar to "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

    The problem is, the Greek word πιστεύω/πιστεύσητε/πιστεύοντες means more than "believe/believing". According to the lexicons, the word also means "to comply with/obey" or "trust/be faithful to".

    So, the mainstream translations are not wrong per se, but it's just that they do not completely convey the fuller and additional meaning(s) of the Greek.
     
  19. extraordinary

    extraordinary Newbie trainee

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    Yes, this is the key to everything ... insufficient translations.
    What single word should they have used instead of "believe"? There is none.

    Actually, this should be realized as being obvious ... for the epistles to make any sense at all.

    I.E. it resolves the incredible disconnect between gospels and epistles!

    Several decades ago, a world-famous evangelist (T.L.Osborne?) studied this in depth
    ... and concluded that "to believe" included obedience!

    To really "believe" demands some serious adherance to God's commands, etc.
    However, this apparently is not obvious to some ... especially our pastors,
    many of whom apparently are people-lovers and not God-lovers,
    and interested in paying off their mortgages.
    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2013
  20. guuila

    guuila Guest

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    Actually I do. The difference between you and me is I believe active, ongoing faith is required to be saved. The verb in John 3:16 "believes" is a present tense active participle. All the believing (present tense) have eternal life. You believe faith at one time in the past is required to be saved. So logically, you believe a person with ZERO faith can be saved, thus the OP.

    False. Anyone who wants to be saved can be saved. If a person makes a profession of faith and then renounces that profession, all it does is prove they didn't have biblical faith to begin with. Never once have I stated this means they "can't still be saved". Hopefully that clears up your confusion.

    At any rate, thanks for agreeing that devil worshippers can go to heaven as long as they believed as a child. Good to know my understanding of Free Grace theology is correct.
     
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