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Francisco Franco was a GREAT Man

Discussion in 'History & Genealogy' started by KnightOfTheRoundTable, May 28, 2004.

  1. KnightOfTheRoundTable

    KnightOfTheRoundTable New Member

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    Hi Everyone!

    I have been doing a lot of reading on Francisco Franco the former Dictator of Spain. I have also been discussing Franco with Spanish people who lived under him during his Dictatorship.

    I have come to the conclusion that he was a great man who did wonders for Spain. He restored order and religious tolerance in Spain and even saved Christianity from oppression from the Socialist Republic who murdered over 6,000 catholic priests just because they were Christians.

    Franco wasnt Racist.
    Franco wasnt Anti-semitic as he saved thousands of Jews from Hitler in WW2.
    Franco didnt like Hitler.
    Franco tole Hitler to go and stuff it in their meeting in 1939 train car meeting. This meeting was Hitler trying to convince Franco to join with him with Hitlers Eastern Front and fight the communists in Russia. Hitler tryed to Taunt him and say that he owed him a favor because of the aid given to him in the spanish civil war that helped Francos Nationalist Army beciome victorios over the Socialists and stop Spain from becoming another Iron Curtain country for Stalin. Franco stood firm and after the meeting Hitler said ''Id rather have my tooth pulled out than meet with Franco again''!

    Franco was a credit to Spain and Christianity. He was a firm dictator but certainly not an evil one. People of Spain allways had a job for life and their were never any redundacies. Franco was the one who made the decision to open up Spain to the Tourist industry thereby creating a strong economy with money constantly coming into Spain. Under Francos regime you could leave your doors unlocked in the day and at night and no-one would break in. Spain was virtually crime and drug free and was therefore a much better place to bring up children than todays Spain.

    Does anyone agree with me?
     
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  2. the_cheat

    the_cheat Guest

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    No.
     
  3. KnightOfTheRoundTable

    KnightOfTheRoundTable New Member

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    Why not?
     
  4. the_cheat

    the_cheat Guest

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    To put it in the shortest possible terms: If he were so GREAT he wouldn't have had to stifle other voices, opinions, public assembly, unions, political groups, activists, free speech, etc. Incidentally, this stifling was carried with guns. If you have to be a totalitarian and use brutal force just to keep your credibility, there's something gravely wrong.
     
  5. KnightOfTheRoundTable

    KnightOfTheRoundTable New Member

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    Of Course he wasnt a democrat but the good that he did out weighted not allowing free speech! I know he arrested political opponents such as communists. But wouldnt it be good to live in a society where the there was hardly any crime no drugs and Christianity was protected.

    He was great because he made Spain Great as well. The booming tourist industry today is down to Francos initial idea. He had to use brute force to keep the peace.

    The Spanish didnt hate him either as so many believe today. thats the reasom why so many Spaniards went BACK to Spain during the Franco era.
     
  6. the_cheat

    the_cheat Guest

    +0
    My point is that if you have to use brute force to keep the peace, there's not actually peace. If he were a GREAT leader, there would be no need to put down uprisings or jail political opponents. He didn't lead the country, he bludgeoned it into submission.

    It would be great to live in a society where there was little or no crime. However, in the Generalissimo's society, there was by definition quite a lot of crime, since simply disagreeing with him was a jailable crime.
     
  7. KnightOfTheRoundTable

    KnightOfTheRoundTable New Member

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    Well even though he was a dictator they did still hold national elections every few years but they didnt hold any regional or local elections.
    Saying he bludgeoned it into submission has no credibility as an argument.
    How could someone in his time be a great leader without having the courage to put down uprisings would be weak. Imagine for example the basque separatist group ETA planted that bomb in that Valencian hotel that happenned around a year and a half ago(did you hear about that?), anyway the Spanish government didnt take any real action to trackdown and arrest these terrorists. But in Francos day there wouldnt be any terrorits bomb attacks let alone failure to track down the perpetrators. Franco would have hunted then down and had them executed. Todays Spanish government would have them arrested put in jail for a few years and then have them released to go and harm again!
     
  8. mythbuster

    mythbuster Senior Member

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    Christian
    Knight,

    A (long) while back I read quite few books on the Spanish Civil War. So my question to you, based on my poor memory is, Didn't Franco ally Spain with Germany and Italy during the Civil War?

    I'm not looking for a fight here, I know that this a a passionate subject!
     
  9. SolomonVII

    SolomonVII Well-Known Member

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    I don't know enough to comment whether he was great or not, but the fact that he was not a democratic leader should not taint our picture of him. Before democracy can come about in a country, there must first be established enough order and predictability into that society, lest the great freedom that only a democracy can give unleashes anarchy and chaos upon the populace. Only when sufficient stability is established can a democracy flourish.

    Perhaps the way to judge the relative greatness of Franco would be to apply the same question about his reign as has put forth about that of Pinochet of Chile. The fact that Chile has become a better nation after Pinochet's reign is beyond dispute. However, because the force and the treachery of Pinochet against his own population far exceeded the need for a strong hand, Pinochet will never enter the history books as a Chilean hero.

    Strength and force are necessary components of good government. Armed Marxist insurrectionists, and the forces of anarchy must be forcefully opposed. A leader's greatness, however, is contingent on his ability to use no more force than is necessary to permit the establishment of civil society.
     
  10. Injured Soldier

    Injured Soldier Senior Member

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    Spain was done after 3 years of civil war, it couldn't have taken a meaningful part in WWII if it wanted to. Franco saw this. For all the horrible things Franco did, he wasn't dumb.

    By your own standards Knight, Franco was evil. The socialists and republicans weren't the only ones to kill Catholic priests, the various factions on Franco's side did too, and no one was excommunicated for it either.

    Crime and drug free? So was the Soviet Union. One of my Russian friends from Kazakhistan said that it was very frequent that his five year old sister was allowed to go play in the park five blocks away an a warm summer's night at 11pm. Today now my friend's sister is 21, and when my friend still lived there he had to accompany her a block to her school. Why do you uphold Franco's crime-free society and not the SU's?

    Iron Curtain country? Stalin didn't want Spain to become communist any more than Franco did. So it is a moot point. Without Franco and the other nationalists, Stalin and the USSR wouldn't have even been involved in Spain, the nationalists manufactured their own false propaganda on that one.

    solomon, Chile was only greater under Pinochet if you take a strict economic measuring stick that has little to do with people in real life. Unemployment tripled, prices soared, protests became more frequent but were put down more harshly. And that's just economic, Pinochet did untold damage by those he tortured and by the dictatorship he imposed on a country that had been a democracy of over 100 years.
     
  11. SolomonVII

    SolomonVII Well-Known Member

    +4,705
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    xxxxx
     
  12. SolomonVII

    SolomonVII Well-Known Member

    +4,705
    Canada
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    Married
    CA-Greens
    xxxx
     
  13. jayem

    jayem Naturalist

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    I had the good fortune to see Picasso's great mural, "Guernica" back in the mid 70's, when it was still in the Museum of Modern Art in NYC. What the Germans did to this small Basque village on Franco's behalf sheds light on the Basque situation today--and maybe Franco's role in perpetuating it.

    http://www.pbs.org/treasuresoftheworld/guernica/glevel_1/1_bombing.html
     
  14. oldrooster

    oldrooster Thank You Jerry

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    Franco was a facist dictator who usurped the legitimate government of Spain with Hitler's help....
     
  15. KnightOfTheRoundTable

    KnightOfTheRoundTable New Member

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    Baptist
    Thanks for the Replys Guys!

    Lets not try to compare Franco with Hitler. First of all HITLER WAS NOT a FACSIST.
    Francos government was based on principles by Jose Antonio Primo de Riviera Falangist government. I dont care that he wasnt a Democrat. I dont think just because he wasnt a Democrat that he doesnt deserve praise for all he accomplished with Spain.

    Pinochet was a Communists but lets keep to Franco or start another thread.
    Franco didnt kill Catholic Priests as he was a Catholic himself who attended Daily Communion.

    So what about the Soviet Union. The Soviets commited far worst Crimes that Francos ever possibly imagined. And Stalin had plans to conquer Europe. Yes Communism is a lot worse than Fascism.

    Old Rooster, So what? He needed an ally and he got one. Or two actually. Its hardly like wonderful Democratic America has never made any unholy alliances. Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Falangist Spain hardly had anything in Common. Except one thing. They understood the therat and Danger posed by the threat of Communism and the unspeakable evils by Stalin. So they formed an alliance to kick the Communists out of Spain for good!

    We should be grateful for the sacrifices that Francos Armys made for our freedom against Communism.
     
  16. oldrooster

    oldrooster Thank You Jerry

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    Hitler made a far larger contribution against communisim, in fact Stalin killed more communists than anybody. Hitler was indeed a facist.
     
  17. KnightOfTheRoundTable

    KnightOfTheRoundTable New Member

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    Baptist
    Hitler wasnt a Fascist!:mad: Mussolini was a the creator of Fascism and nothing of his doctrine or system of politics existed in Nazi Germany.
    For example Hitler and the Nazis were anti-capitalists and as such took the action to Nationalise everyforeign owned business and steal all the profits that they made to go back into restructring Germany.
    Mussolini who WAS a Fascist did not treat Capitalism this way. For example businesses that were foreign owned statyed foreign owned except they were more regulated and did not make as much profit as they did previously. Companies that made exceptional huge profits were taxed more thus giving Italy extra cash that they needed to put into other projects.

    To be honest National Socialism has more in common with Communism than Fascism. if you dont belive me read the communist manifesto and then read the NSDAP party manifesto and see the similarities.
    Hitler was a tyrant and an evil man- no doubt and Mussolinis mistake was to join Hitler.

    This is the difference between Fascism and National Socialism!
     
  18. oldrooster

    oldrooster Thank You Jerry

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    There is an excellent history of the Condor Legion, which was the German force that helped Franco win the civil war. I also suggest that you study the bombing campaign waged during the civil war. Franco was just the only one left after WW2 ended, I also suggest you read the history of the spainish "Blue Division" that fought on the eastern front.
     
  19. Injured Soldier

    Injured Soldier Senior Member

    733
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    Christian
    I told you, what he accomplished with Spain was problems he engineered himself. The destruction of the SCW to the economy wasn't fixed for decades, and Franco conceded a policy of liberalization that a Republican government would have started sooner. So much for his economic success. He kept the Soviets out of a place they didn't want in the first place? Ooooh, tough guy. In fact the only thing I can think Franco actually did well (as opposed to just stealing the credit for actions which had little to do with him) was to keep Spain out of WWII.
    Paul Preston, The Spanish Civil War, 1936-1939. Read that and you'll see that the Catholic church has 14 well documented killings of Catholic priests by Franco's forces. The nationalists actions against the Basques would greatly increase the number of Catholics killed by the nationalist forces. To date, none of the killers or those who ordered their killings have been excommunicated, none of the victims recieved sainthood. Going to Daily Communion doesn't make you any more a Catholic than going to McDonald's makes you a hamburger. You've swallowed Franco's propaganda hook, line and sinker, friend.
    I'm saying your ideal of a crime-free, drug-free society was mirrored in the Soviet Union. If you chose to uphold the ideal, you have to accept communist ideals in at least one area.

    And lastly, the idea that the Soviets were going to invade Europe was propaganda. As it was, Europe invaded the USSR twice in 20 years, and Stalin even made moves AGAINST an offensive attack on Europe.
     
  20. Injured Soldier

    Injured Soldier Senior Member

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    My turn to be :mad: Mussolini didn't invent Fascism. He was a disgruntled socialist that used fascism to gain power and keep it. Fascism was a synthesis of the political ideals or Maurras and Sorrel.

    Picking out a true fascist out of the right-wing authoritarian regimes in the 30s and 40s is hard, Mussolini would indeed be the truest, he was also the biggest showoff of the lot too. ;)
     
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