Fr. Thomas Hopko's lecture - what do you think?

[Rick of Wessex]

Dear friends,

Below is a link to a lecture given by Fr. Thomas Hopko (dean emeritus of St. Vladimirs Semminary) about what would be necessary for a complete union between the Orthodox and the Romans:

http://www.doy.org/viewpast.asp?ID=2027

I'd like to know your opinion about it. Do you agree? Disagree? why?

In XC,
Rick

 

[Shubunkin]

Well, I'm not anywhere knowledgeable in such things. The first thing comes to my mind (for what that is worth), perhaps we are never meant to have unity? What then? Yes, that would be sad, but are we prepared for such a thing? We could work at this thing until we are blue in the face, and it still may not work. Definitely, we should pray for it, though.

 

[EricTheRed]

if the RCC comes back to Orthodoxy and admits it errors they can come back. I am not holding my breath.

 

[Rick of Wessex]

Thanks for your comments.

What really bothered me (reading for a second time, now) is that Fr. Thomas seemed to imply that we need to reach some kind of compromise. I don't know - I have no qualms in accepting different liturgical traditions, but why would we need to compromise on faith?

Rick

 

[Matrona]

I didn't like it at all. I'm sick and tired of this "unity" rhetoric that flies in the face of the faith that Orthodox have fought and died to protect. The Church is just as complete with or without new members converting from Roman Catholicism. The Roman Catholics abandoned the (actual) Catholic Church; the burden is on them to convert.

 

[KATHXOYMENOC]

(deleted)

 

[MariaRegina]

Okay!

I honestly like Father Hopko.

Yes, he says some controversial things, but he makes you realize that we are sinners in deep need of repentance.

Yes, he recognizes that the 'filioque' is in error, but he also realizes that it will take time for the Western mindset to fully accept that error.

In fact, it takes time for most of us to admit our errors and to change our ways of thinking.

 

[MariaRegina]

Incidentally, Father Hopko will be speaking at St. Paul Greek Orthodox Church in Irvine, California this coming October for a weekend retreat.

Oh, I wish I could go, but it is a long drive to Irvine from Los Angeles.

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

I didn't get a chance to read the whole thing. But from what I read, I didn't like what Fr. Thomas had to say.

There is only one way to reach unity, and that is with individual conversions to Orthodoxy. And not with wasting our time dealing with Roman Catholic Bishops, and the Pope of Rome.

 

[The Prokeimenon!]

I didn't like it at all. I'm sick and tired of this "unity" rhetoric that flies in the face of the faith that Orthodox have fought and died to protect. The Church is just as complete with or without new members converting from Roman Catholicism. The Roman Catholics abandoned the (actual) Catholic Church; the burden is on them to convert.

Well said.

Rdr Moses

 

[Petronius]

I think it is very weird what is there and actually in-understandable.
If the 1st and 2nd Centuries churches were united in faith , but quite different in ritual, I think this can be accepted, so the RC keep their actual mass, accept only unmaried priests, no iconostasis, but they have to remove filioque, re-introduce wine in Eucharist and probably some others eroors to be removed and then we will have same faith, but different rituals as Fr. Hopko praised the 1st and 2nd Church.
I read somewhere a quotating of late Pope John Paul or actual Pope Benedict on ecumenical dialogue between RC and EO and it was stated:
"We (RCC) can not ask from Orthodox more then it was established by the Seven Ecumenical Councils".
I feel it absolutely disproportionate and too daring to enter polemics with Father Hopko over such issues of greater importance.
He is absolutely right when stating that some Orthodox consider ecumenism a heresy, that it is not good to have common prayers .....

It looks to me that sveral levels of the ecumenical dialogue are mixed together hence it is difficult to understand.
One important idea is that for achieveing unity first step would be to achieve unity between RCC EO eventually Anglican Church and then with other Protestants Churches (it is uncoceivable with all and it will not be possible, because new protstant churches will appear).

 

[walking.away.123]

I didn't like it at all. I'm sick and tired of this "unity" rhetoric that flies in the face of the faith that Orthodox have fought and died to protect. The Church is just as complete with or without new members converting from Roman Catholicism. The Roman Catholics abandoned the (actual) Catholic Church; the burden is on them to convert.

Walking through a bared door is too heavy a burden. I don't think Fr. Hopko is saying Orthodox need to do anything but recognize what is the Faith and not block the way with the rest.
I didn't find anything in his lecture that suggested we needed to compromise the faith. He was very correct on one thing. We are not unified at all among ourselves. I think that is the first thing we should be working on. I'm not too worried that another jurisdiction will set up shop on my small island, but I worry what will happen in China in years to come, especiall as they open up more.
S.

 

[choirfiend]

I think that if anyone thinks Fr. Tom suggests that the Orthodox faith be compromised in the name of unity, then they don't know Fr. Tom very well. He's a skilled diplomat--he speaks softly and carries a big stick.

 

[Andrea Elizabeth]

I agree with him that the first step should be the desire for unity. If we open our hearts in love to others, then we can have a respectful dialogue and recognize the essentials. And we can start with our own jurisdictional squabbles in western countries "new" to Orthodoxy. This is a unique immigrational situation. I don't think unity has to mean uniformity necessarily. I like the cultural variety within the Orthodox Faith if Peter isn't starving in order to pay Paul, so to speak.

 

[Matrona]

I think that if anyone thinks Fr. Tom suggests that the Orthodox faith be compromised in the name of unity, then they don't know Fr. Tom very well.

I hope you're right but I think you're wrong. The ending part, about "going along" with certain things for "a while", was absolutely infuriating to me. If one convert from RC-ism came to Fr. Thomas and said, "I want to be Orthodox, but I'm still going to say the filioque sometimes in private, and I'd like for you to pretend to not have a family until I get used to your not being celibate..." I wonder what he would think? There's no difference between one convert and a billion converts; why should we expect less from a billion of them than we would expect from one?

As for unity among Orthodox ourselves, that's a completely different animal from inviting a heterodox communion to join the Church. I wish Fr. Thomas hadn't brought it up while talking about bringing RC's home because it sounded to me like he was trying to make the two issues seem comparable. Quite UNLIKE the difference between Orthodox and RC's, the different Orthodox jurisdictions ACTUALLY DO share the same faith!

Orthodox unity is an administrative issue, NOT a faith issue, and as frustrating as jurisdictional politics can be sometimes, I wish people wouldn't talk about it as if it's some kind of horrible scandalous blasphemy that somehow pollutes the faith. The Orthodox Church is a lot of things, but "organized" has never been one of them. Jesus is a healer, not a secretary.

 

[Ilian]

Fr. Hopko's essential points are correct:

- A pre-cursor to unity is the desire for it.
- The real stumbling block between East and West is the Papacy, or more importantly the ecclesiology built around the post schism Papacy.

Despite the rantings and ravings on the Internet, Orthodox Christians in most places have fairly good relations with Catholics. The Patriarchate of Antioch is particularly close with their Catholic counterpart.

One of the most reasonable statements put forth I believe came from Bishop Hilarion of of Vienna (he's a bishop of the Moscow Patriarchate). He said he believes Orthodox and Catholics should not concentrate on doctrinal issues, but in areas where they have shared concerns and can make immediate impact such as combatting secularism, abortion, militant Islam, etc. The statement is here.

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/14/65.aspx#3

 

[walking.away.123]

I think that if anyone thinks Fr. Tom suggests that the Orthodox faith be compromised in the name of unity, then they don't know Fr. Tom very well. He's a skilled diplomat--he speaks softly and carries a big stick.

I agree, except I have many of his lectures and he sometimes drops the diplomacy.
I don't completely agree with what he said about the filoque but he was uncompromizing in saying that spoken or not Catholics must have the correct theological understanding. He never suggested we compromise the faith in any way.

 

[MariaRegina]

The most popular theme running through all of Father Thomas sermons and lectures has always been repentance.

Re: Repentance

We must not judge others for each one of us is the chief among sinners.

If we don't forgive others, how can we ourselves expect to receive forgiveness.

Lack of repentance and forgiveness are the major roadblocks to reconciliation between God and men.






BTW: We were told by our Orthodox Priests that the proper way to address Priests and Bishops is by using the full saint's name and not an abbreviation out of respect for the saint.

For example, we would never address the Antiochian Bishop as Bishop JOE. It just isn't respectful. Most people in my parish address each other using their full Christian name again honoring the saints whose names they bear.

The idea of using abbreviations is a western idea.

 

[Andrea Elizabeth]

Thanks Aria.

I'll stop abbreviating Father.

 

[gtsecc]

Many Anglicans see our legitimacy as being tided to a split church - If you reunite with Rome, and we don't also, we have left the now unified Church.