Fr Peter Jon Gilquist on ghosts

[abacabb3]

Are they demons or trapped spirits of people?

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Are they demons or trapped spirits of people?

On the 41st day, all was clear.
I hope the spirit went to God.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Are they demons or trapped spirits of people?

or delusions, or some combo.

 

[Albion]

The evidence for ghosts seems too strong and persistent to be dismissed summarily, but the most common explanation for them--particularly because so many sightings, etc. are of ghosts who appear to do the same small thing endlessly--is that these are the spirits of people caught in time or who died with some unresolved problems or something like that.

IF we do not dismiss the idea of ghosts out of hand, what sense is there in thinking that they're trapped in time? Is there anything in our religion which is compatible with that explanation?

 

[The Liturgist]

Most Eastern Orthodox texts I have read on ghosts indicate they are in fact demons, but I do admire Fr. Gilquist and he raises some interesting questions, and it is true that there is no definitive dogmatic definition concerning ghosts in the Eastern Orthodox Church (however, in the Pedalion St. Nicodemus condemned the belief in vampires, and cited a canon against desecrating the bodies of the deceased as proscribing what was in the 18th century an alarming practice in the Ottoman governorate of Roumelia for the poorly catechized to dig up deceased persons and drive a stake through their heart based on a superstitious belief in vampires, so I think we can rule them out). With ghosts, however, it is interesting to note that there was a lack of Patristic consensus on whether the Witch of Endor actually called up the ghost of Saul, or a demon, or if she was a fraud.

 

[ArmyMatt]

yeah, I know there is no general consensus. most of the stuff I read has said ghosts are demonic deception, our mind messing with us, or both.

‘tis interesting, though

 

[prodromos]

With ghosts, however, it is interesting to note that there was a lack of Patristic consensus on whether the Witch of Endor actually called up the ghost of Saul, or a demon, or if she was a fraud.

I think you meant Samuel, not Saul.

 

[The Liturgist]

I think you meant Samuel, not Saul.

Correct. That was quite a gaffe.

 

[abacabb3]

or delusions, or some combo.

I was reading Orthodox Ethos and some Greek Bishop in 1990 made a passing observation in a homily which encompasses what I think is the truth of the matter--all "ghosts" are demons masquerading as human souls. Traditionally, the soul only kicks around for 40 days. I hear all sorts of unbelievers who's mother died or whatever and the "ghost" comforts them. Or they know someone committed suicide in the house and the "ghost" is friendly. It gives people a view of the afterlife that right faith does not matter, nor repentance, and so the deception of these apparitions is obvious.

What I find less cut and dry is that St Athanasius speaks about demonic spirits always leaving one feeling confused. This I don't always hear admitted to. But according to St John of the Ladder, if a dream does not lead us to repentance is not of God. And so, I'd say any of these apparitions, if they do not lead us to repentance than their demonic origin is virtually guarenteed.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I was reading Orthodox Ethos and some Greek Bishop in 1990 made a passing observation in a homily which encompasses what I think is the truth of the matter--all "ghosts" are demons masquerading as human souls. Traditionally, the soul only kicks around for 40 days. I hear all sorts of unbelievers who's mother died or whatever and the "ghost" comforts them. Or they know someone committed suicide in the house and the "ghost" is friendly. It gives people a view of the afterlife that right faith does not matter, nor repentance, and so the deception of these apparitions is obvious.

What I find less cut and dry is that St Athanasius speaks about demonic spirits always leaving one feeling confused. This I don't always hear admitted to. But according to St John of the Ladder, if a dream does not lead us to repentance is not of God. And so, I'd say any of these apparitions, if they do not lead us to repentance than their demonic origin is virtually guarenteed.

definitely the most common thing I have read or heard is that it’s demonic delusion.

 

[Orthodoxjay1]

I was just thinking about this, even before Orthodoxy was on my radar, that one thing , and I was struggling as a Christian in general, i even knew as at a very deep down in my soul level, Ghosts are demonic, it very alarming you see the rise in Ghost hunting, private "exorcists" not related to a church at all, and tv shows and the general culture approach the issue from a "spiritualist" new age direction, our society is very much like pre-bolshevik , pre-revolutionary Russia, where the elites and eventually the general population , who stood believing in the true faith started to dabble in various non-christian superstitions.

 

[rakovsky]

it is interesting to note that there was a lack of Patristic consensus on whether the Witch of Endor actually called up the ghost of Saul, or a demon, or if she was a fraud.

I looked at it in depth and concluded that the Bible writer presents it as actually Samuel's Ghost, for a number of reasons. One is that 1 Samuel 28 says, "When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out loudly".
The plain reading is that the ghost was actually Samuel. To read it otherwise, one would need a metaphorical interpretation of Samuel. The story repeatedly presents the being this way, eg.:

Then Saul realized it was Samuel, and he bowed his face toward the ground and kneeled down. 15 Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

One could see the reference to seeing a god as an implication that it was actually a demon/angel. But in THE RELIGION OF THE APOSTLES, Fr. Stephen suggests that when the story talks about the woman seeing a god/"divine being", it is referring to theosis, and how Jesus says that the deceased become like angels.

A second reason that it could be real was that the being's prediction came true, as Saul's life ended in tragedy.

Third, when it says that Saul realized that it was Samuel, it reemphasizes the point, saying that at least Saul believed that it was Samuel, although conceivably Saul could have been fooled.

A fourth reason was that the being rebuked Saul when, based on the context of God abandoning him and Saul disobeying God, it would be fitting to rebuke Saul.

I guess that there is room for ambiguity in the story on this issue, because we are dealing with another paradigm than the normal material world.

 

[rakovsky]

There are alot of stories in Orthodox tradition about saints appearing to people, from St Elijah and Moses at the Transfiguration, to Jesus in his 40 days and then to St Stephen and St John (Book of Revelation), to apparitions of the Virgin Mary, that it seems to give the impression that one could have real visions of deceased persons (eg. saints). There is a story of some apparitions of individuals (IIRC, a man and a young man) in Greece who claim to have been killed by Turks, following which the people's remains were discovered, and the people were canonized in the Greek Church, with the apparitions being the basis for the current knowledge of the peoples' names.