Former Muslim in Bradford is beaten up for converting to Christianity [CH-UK

[SolomonVII]

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/new...-is-beaten-up-for-converting-to-christianity/



What is the position of moderate Islam on the topic of apostasy, and what kind of theological arguments can be made to assure that apostates are accepted by the religion of peace?

 

[Michie]

Subscribing. Good question.

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/new...-is-beaten-up-for-converting-to-christianity/



What is the position of moderate Islam on the topic of apostasy, and what kind of theological arguments can be made to assure that apostates are accepted by the religion of peace?

 

[dzheremi]

As far as I understand it, all major schools of Islamic jurisprudence (Sunni and Shia alike) consider apostasy to be punishable by death, though the exact details and whether or not it is even possible to carry the sentence out according to those details may vary. (This is why you'll hear from a lot of Muslims that these medieval sorts of punishments are a thing of the past, not because such punishments somehow aren't a part of Islam anymore, but because the legal framework in many countries isn't there to enforce them.)

A quick survey from Wiki on the topic ("Apostasy_in_Islam#Punishment") reveals that most differ only in the details of how long the apostate is to be allowed to possibly recant in order to save themselves from death. To whit, it's not a matter of what moderates or conservatives think, but of what the traditions of the religion have established in this area:

In Islamic law (sharia), the view among the majority of medieval jurists was that a male apostate must be put to death unless he suffers from a mental disorder or converted under duress, for example, due to an imminent danger of being killed. A female apostate must be either executed, according to Shafi'i, Maliki, and Hanbali schools of Sunni Islamic jurisprudence (fiqh), or imprisoned until she reverts to Islam as advocated by the Sunni Hanafi school and by Shi'a scholars.[48][72]

Many Islamic scholars, but not all, consider apostasy as a Hudud (or Hadd) crime, that is one of six "crimes against God" a Muslim can commit, which deserves the fixed punishment of death as that is a "claim of God".[73][74]

Under traditional Islamic law an apostate may be given a waiting period while in incarceration to repent and accept Islam again and if not the apostate is to be killed without any reservations.[75] This traditional view of Sunni and Shia Islamic fiqhs, or schools of jurisprudence each with their own interpretation of Sharia, varies as follows:[15][76][77]

Hanafi - recommends three days of imprisonment before execution, although the delay before killing the Muslim apostate is not mandatory. Apostates who are men must be killed, states the Hanafi Sunni fiqh, while women must be held in solitary confinement and beaten every three days till they recant and return to Islam.[78]
Maliki - allows up to ten days for recantation, after which the apostate must be killed. Both men and women apostates deserve death penalty according to the traditional view of Sunni Maliki fiqh.[77]
Shafi'i - waiting period of three days is required to allow the Muslim apostate to repent and return to Islam. After the wait, execution is the traditional recommended punishment for both men and women apostates.[77]
Hanbali - waiting period not necessary, but may be granted. Execution is traditional recommended punishment for both genders of Muslim apostates.[77]
Ja'fari - waiting period not necessary, but may be granted according to this Shia fiqh. Male apostate must be executed, states the Jafari fiqh, while a female apostate must be held in solitary confinement till she repents and returns to Islam.[78][77]

As sick as it makes me to say it, it seems like those who (only) get beaten up are the lucky ones. And this isn't even touching on the much more common 'mob justice' in many societies, by which a rumor of apostasy is enough, even with no legal ruling. And of course the legal punishment is still in force in many places (hence cases like that of the Egyptian former Muslim Mohammed Hegazy).

 

[pdudgeon]

As far as I understand it, all major schools of Islamic jurisprudence (Sunni and Shia alike) consider apostasy to be punishable by death, though the exact details and whether or not it is even possible to carry the sentence out according to those details may vary. (This is why you'll hear from a lot of Muslims that these medieval sorts of punishments are a thing of the pastm not because such punishments somehow aren't a part of Islam anymore, but because the legal framework in many countries isn't there to enforce them.)

A quick survey from Wiki on the topic ("Apostasy_in_Islam#Punishment") reveals that most differ only in the details of how long the apostate is to be allowed to possibly recant in order to save themselves from death. To whit, it's not a matter of what moderates or conservatives think, but of what the traditions of the religion have established in this area:



As sick as it makes me to say it, it seems like those who (only) get beaten up are the lucky ones. And this isn't even touching on the much more common 'mob justice' in many societies, by which a rumor of apostasy is enough, even with no legal ruling. And of course the legal punishment is still in force in many places (hence cases like that of the Egyptian former Muslim Mohammed Hegazy).

agreed. this is a good reminder that there is no real choice between 'bad' or 'less bad', since both stem from the same root.

 

[brinny]

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/new...-is-beaten-up-for-converting-to-christianity/



What is the position of moderate Islam on the topic of apostasy, and what kind of theological arguments can be made to assure that apostates are accepted by the religion of peace?

Praying for this precious one (Nissar Hussain) and his entire family (including 6 children) and household (((hug)))

 

[pdudgeon]

Praying for this precious one (Nissar Hussain) and his entire family (including 6 children) and household (((hug)))

agreed. more Christians are being martyred now than in all of the previous years.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014...ort-idUSBREA070PB20140108#ZLDP0I0p5BYeYmUa.97

Open Doors, a non-denominational group supporting persecuted Christians worldwide, said on Wednesday it had documented 2,123 "martyr" killings, compared with 1,201 in 2012. There were 1,213 such deaths in Syria alone last year, it said.

"This is a very minimal count based on what has been reported in the media and we can confirm," said Frans Veerman, head of research for Open Doors. Estimates by other Christian groups put the annual figure as high as 8,000.

 

[brinny]

agreed. more Christians are being martyred now than in all of the previous years.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014...ort-idUSBREA070PB20140108#ZLDP0I0p5BYeYmUa.97

God help us! Praying!

 

[MikeK]

Praying for this precious one (Nissar Hussain) and his entire family (including 6 children) and household (((hug)))

Indeed! Lord have mercy!

 

[SolomonVII]

It does not seem then that there is such a thing as moderate Islam when it comes to the question of apostasy.
Or, if the news story is any condition, the difference is that radical beats the apostate to within inches of death, and the moderate turns his or her back.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

My half-sister was raised Catholic and became an atheist. If she would have been raised Muslim she would probably still be one.

 

[mark46]

When Christian Europe had fundamentalistic theocracies, what was the punishment for converted to Islam, for not baptizing your children in the Church, for leading others from the faith to a pagan religion?
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Muslims believe that those who convert to Islam will face everlasting hell for eternity. Thus, in their fundamentalistic theocracy, they have sever penalties for conversion.
===============
As a side, I would note that those of other faiths MAY be free to practice their faith in Muslim countries, as long as they do not solicit converts. That is the situation in Iran.
===============
In theocracies, the highest law is the religious law. Freedom to choose one's religion is not a choice in such a country.

 

[SolomonVII]

My half-sister was raised Catholic and became an atheist. If she would have been raised Muslim she would probably still be one.

Or beat nearly to death, or beyond.

 

[mark46]

Or beat nearly to death, or beyond.

We should have a sub-board for this type of post. Sadly, it not against the rules here.

 

[SolomonVII]

When Christian Europe had fundamentalistic theocracies, what was the punishment for converted to Islam, for not baptizing your children in the Church, for leading others from the faith to a pagan religion?

Who cares?!!
We would still be living in a medieval world if that was an important question.

===============
Muslims believe that those who convert to Islam will face everlasting hell for eternity. Thus, in their fundamentalistic theocracy, they have sever penalties for conversion.
===============

The question was whether or not a theology has been developed in Islam to go beyond this.

As a side, I would note that those of other faiths MAY be free to practice their faith in Muslim countries, as long as they do not solicit converts. That is the situation in Iran.
===============

That is the topic of another thread. This thread is on the question of apostasy.

In theocracies, the highest law is the religious law. Freedom to choose one's religion is not a choice in such a country.

Freedom to choose one's religion is also severely curtailed in a western country, such as Britain, say, where the result will be beaten to the point of death, and ostracism, and where the moderate response is to turn one's back on the guy who is getting swarmed by the Islamist gang.

 

[SolomonVII]

We should have a sub-board for this type of post. Sadly, it not against the rules here.

This is that sub forum. Those Catholics who cannot handle the truth really ought to go to where their politically correct sensitivities will not be offended.
The OP is about an apostate who has gotten beaten nearly to death.
Discuss.

 

[mark46]

This is that sub forum. Those Catholics who cannot handle the truth really ought to go to where their politically correct sensitivities will not be offended.
The OP is about an apostate who has gotten beaten nearly to death.
Discuss.

Two posters seem to believe that being a Muslim woman makes one likely to be beaten to death. I will discuss, as you asked. I think that such a view has no place on a Christian board.

 

[SolomonVII]

Agreed then that fundamentalist Islamic arguments would see this kind of beating as a form of mercy, in comparison to Islamic hell, where skin is constantly grown anew in order to be burned off again.

But what is the theological arguments that moderate Muslims can bring forth to counter that fundamentalism?

Anybody?

 

[SolomonVII]

Two posters seem to believe that being a Muslim woman makes one likely to be beaten to death. I will discuss, as you asked. I think that such a view has no place on a Christian board.

Such rhetorical flourishes add nothing to the discussion, are tangential to the reality of what has been posted, and only demonstrate that for some posters, political correctness is the greater value than the truth.

 

[mark46]

Agreed then that fundamentalist Islamic arguments would see this kind of beating as a form of mercy, in comparison to Islamic hell, where skin is constantly grown anew in order to be burned off again.

But what is the theological arguments that moderate Muslims can bring forth to counter that fundamentalism?

Anybody?

As I have indicated, I think that discussions of Islam should be a sub-board. What we have is a board that openly attacks another religion. The Church seems to have a different view of Islam.

=====
841The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

 

[LivingWordUnity]

As I have indicated, I think that discussions of Islam should be a sub-board. What we have is a board that openly attacks another religion. The Church seems to have a different view of Islam.

=====
841The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

That quote is off-topic. This thread is about what Islam teaches about Muslims who leave that religion. The only thing the Catechism attempts to address with Muslims is the question of whether or not they worship the same God as us.