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former Christians who became Muslim what made you turn away from Jesus ?

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by harvester77, Dec 2, 2014.

  1. dcalling

    dcalling Senior Member

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    I already said I made a mistake of quoting the wrong number (80k vs 70k), but if you read the ahadith clearly, you will see it agrees with what I said (and a number of Muslim sites and what you said).

    Sahih Muslim Book 041, Hadith Number 6924.
    Chapter : Pertaining to the conquest of Constantinople and the appearance of the Dajjal and descent of Jesus son of Mary (Jesus Christ).

    Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The Last Hour would not come until the Romans would land at al-A'maq or in Dabiq. An army consisting of the best (soldiers) of the people of the earth at that time will come from Medina (to counteract them). When they will arrange themselves in ranks, the Romans would say: Do not stand between us and those (Muslims) who took prisoners from amongst us. Let us fight with them; and the Muslims would say: Nay, by Allah, we would never get aside from you and from our brethren that you may fight them. They will then fight and a third (part) of the army would run away, whom Allah will never forgive. A third (part of the army). which would be constituted of excellent martyrs in Allah's eye, would be killed and the third who would never be put to trial would win and they would be conquerors of Constantinople. And as they would be busy in distributing the spoils of war (amongst themselves) after hanging their swords by the olive trees, the Satan would cry: The Dajjal has taken your place among your family. They would then come out, but it would be of no avail. And when they would come to Syria, he would come out while they would be still preparing themselves for battle drawing up the ranks. Certainly, the time of prayer shall come and then Jesus (peace be upon him) son of Mary would descend and would lead them in prayer. When the enemy of Allah would see him, it would (disappear) just as the salt dissolves itself in water and if he (Jesus) were not to confront them at all, even then it would dissolve completely, but Allah would kill them by his hand and he would show them their blood on his lance (the lance of Jesus Christ).



    Sunan Abu Dawud:

    Book 37, Number 4281:
    Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal:
    The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The flourishing state of Jerusalem will be when Yathrib is in ruins, the ruined state of Yathrib will be when the great war comes, the outbreak of the great war will be at the conquest of Constantinople and the conquest of Constantinople when the Dajjal (Antichrist) comes forth. He (the Prophet) struck his thigh or his shoulder with his hand and said: This is as true as you are here or as you are sitting (meaning Mu'adh ibn Jabal).

    Book 37, Number 4282:
    Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal:
    The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The greatest war, the conquest of Constantinople and the coming forth of the Dajjal (Antichrist) will take place within a period of seven months.

    Book 37, Number 4283:
    Narrated Abdullah ibn Busr:
    The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The time between the great war and the conquest of the city (Constantinople) will be six years, and the Dajjal (Antichrist) will come forth in the seventh.

    Book 41, Number 6985:
    Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.



    Book 41, Number 7034:
    Anas b. Malik reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The Dajjal would be followed by seventy thousand Jews of Isfahan wearing Persian shawls.


    Dajjal, the Anti-Christ - One-Eyed "Kafir" Christian, Jewish Dajjal, his signs, and how to avoid him.


    The ahadith are less reliable than Quran but the reliablity is only in degree, and not absolute.
     
  2. smaneck

    smaneck Baha'i

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    The references to Constantinople and the references to the Jews are found in two very separate ahadith. And all the ahadith mentioned here save one speak of Jews being on the offense and following the Anti-christ, not Muslims just going after and slaughtering Jews as you depicted.

    That's a pretty nasty and deliberate distortion in my book. In fact, I'd said it constitutes slander born of hatred.

    It is pretty huge degree if you ask me. The very short canonization process which safeguarded the integrity of the Qur'an is unprecedented in religious history. In any case, hadith are not scripture. Muhammad could not possibly have said and done all the things mentioned there.
     
  3. dcalling

    dcalling Senior Member

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    My original quote is "there will be 80k Jews storm out", which is pretty clear they are not civilians. The only part I made a mistake is the number which should be 70k. Why is it slander or hatred?

    The ahaidth of end times can be summarized as:
    1. The end times will come when Muslims conquer Constantinople.
    2. Dajia (anti-christ) will appear at that time
    3. The Dajia will lead 70000 Jews and they will be killed by the Muslims, even stones or trees will disclose their position.

    Is that good enough? Or you think none of the ahadith can be trusted?
     
  4. smaneck

    smaneck Baha'i

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    On the contrary, since you said this was *after* Constantinople fell, presumably they were trying to get away.

    There is no summary of ahadith. What you have is various contradictory ahadith. And what you have chosen to focus on is a tiny smidgen of ahadith regarding the end of times which you have placed together to make Muslims look bad. In none of those ahadith is the fall of Constantinople placed together was Antichrists leading Jews. What is being depicted in those latter ahadith is the Battle of Armageddon or the Plain of Meggido. Meggido is located in Palestine, not Turkey.

    These ahadith have nothing to do with one another.

    No, your distortion remains.

    I think it is possible to come up with a science of hadith based on cannons of modern critical scholarship. I don't think they would be of any use for legal purposes. The 'ulama are going to continue to do what the 'ulama do. But it maybe possible to come up with a more accurate picture of the historical Muhammad. One of the rules of critical scholarship is that one disregards any material which is clearly anachronistic. That nearly always means setting apocalyptic predictions.
     
  5. dcalling

    dcalling Senior Member

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    All the ahadithes are related to the end times, and they are not self conflicting, they are rather clear of what is going to happen. I don't see self conflicting accounts though.
     
  6. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

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    Was there ever seeing the life of sin, and knowing God's love, and knowing of Christ, loving God and living for God through Christ, with then turning from that?

    Why would it be seen that redeeming the world was not right for Christianity?
     
  7. smaneck

    smaneck Baha'i

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    Knowing God's love and loving Him through Christ was certainly a large part of my religion. Didn't focus so much on sin. If one is turns towards God, they aren't looking so much at themselves.

    It is not a matter of not being right it is because Christianity has had 2000 years and hasn't done it yet and shows very little interest in actually doing this.
     
  8. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    a) You're still not "redeeming the world". But I admit it's easy to convince oneself the contrary. It's an exercise in living the religious fantasy.

    b) Christianity teaches world redemption. You would have known that had you have been an actual Christian, which I still contend you never were. Any deep understanding of Christianity would have taught you that.

    c) Almost every single "convert" to Islam (or Baha'i in your case) on those endless Youtube testimonies who claim to have been "Christian" were merely culturally or nominally Christian at best. Few demonstrate any depth of knowledge of the religion, none had any clue about it's clear guidance, the way of Jesus nor do they seem to have had any demonstrable living faith in Jesus. One gets the feeling that the Islamic cults or sects they join consider them "Converts from Christianity" based on nothing more than their race. Hideous.
     
  9. smaneck

    smaneck Baha'i

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    Interesting statement from someone who uses the screen name contradmundum meaning *against* the world. You have a lot of gall to insist that you know what I was or believed better than I do.

    I'm sure it makes you comfortable to believe that. It is also makes you an arrogant SOB. Amazing how nobody can start a thread on this topic before the so-called Christians insist on telling former Christians they were never Christian to begin with.

    I'm not going to waste my breath trying to persuade someone who shows not a single iota of real spirituality himself, but only pride and arrogance, that I have a genuine faith in Christ.

    Sorry, but the hideous ones are the ones who have to go around negating the reality other people's faith in order to feel secure in their own.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2014
  10. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

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    I think this was an issue. Coming to God is really with turning from sin. It isn't for focusing on sin, obsession won't solve issues of sinning. But one won't understand God if not understanding to turn from sin, which is acting contrary to Yahweh God. Christ came for this.

    Really? What standard is used? Doing it perfectly right? Of course not, and I speak as one who disagrees with many Christians on what right things we should be doing. Though some, even possibly many, are making some things worse, there is such interest, and that is basis behind many of the missionary activities. There are schools, hospitals, and other outreaches for people in the communities because of Christians being there, and there weren't those things before.
     
  11. smaneck

    smaneck Baha'i

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    delete. Didn't mean to resurrect a dead thread.
     
  12. Godistruth1

    Godistruth1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God is one and not three as Trinity!!
     
  13. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    Of course there is only one God. Christians do not believe there are three Gods.
     
  14. Godistruth1

    Godistruth1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Isn't Trinity 3 deities?
     
  15. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    No, there is only one Being who is God.
     
  16. Godistruth1

    Godistruth1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Father, son & holy ghost are three different deities!
     
  17. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    No, there is only one God -- one deity -- The "son" is God's Word, what He uses to create -- the One God spoke and something was created -- "let there be light" and there was light.

    Doen't your Allah do the same? Allah said "be" and it was?

    Your Allah did not use another God (deity) to create, did he?
     
  18. Godistruth1

    Godistruth1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Is Jesus & holy ghost not God? The word be does not become a in any way!
     
  19. GeorgeTwo

    GeorgeTwo Member

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    God is God and His Word and His Holy Spirit. They are the same substance, deity, Only one God, not three.

    Jesus as a man did not exist prior to His birth.

    There is not one verse in the Qur'an that denies that God's Word and Sprit are not also God, not three Gods but only one.

    Looking at Allah's use of his word "be" to create and his very own spirit is important for you to consider.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2018
  20. dlamberth

    dlamberth Senior Contributor Supporter

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    No, Jesus is not God. It's the Christ substance, the Light of God one could say, that bubbled up in Jesus that is God.
     
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