Formal Debate - YAHWEH is GOD

[MarkRohfrietsch]

1. will be taking the position “Yahweh is God”.
2. BlueLightningTN will be taking the position “Yahweh is not God”.
3. TrevorL will go first.
4. This debate will consist of 3 alternating rounds (3 posts each, a total of 6 posts)
5. Maximum lengths of posts will be 1000 words.
6. Maximum time between posts will be one week from the time a post is approved and made visible.
7. Outside quotes will be allowed, but will be subject to the 20% rule.
8. Start date: Any time.

This debate, at the discretion of the participants will be followed by parts 2 and three. Part 2 - Creation to the Prophets; Part 3 - David and the Prophets.

Since this is considered a controversial topic by Christian forums the Peanut Gallery will be moderated and is located here:

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Edit function is not working for me today; here is the link for the Peanut Gallery thread for this debate: YAHWEH is GOD - Peanut Gallery Thread

 

[TrevorL]

I appreciate the provision of this facility by Christian Forums and all the work involved in this, and allowing me the opportunity to affirm that “Yahweh is God”, that Yahweh as revealed in the Bible exists and He is the One True God. My aim is to establish this mainly by considering the Divine revelation as given in the Bible, which is as “a light shining in a dark place”. The greatest revelation of God is in and through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ Hebrews 1:1-2.

1 The Creation
Summary: Genesis 1 narrates God’s creation of the earth and Adam and Eve. Genesis 2 speaks more specifically of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. This narrative simply assumes that God exists and reveals Him as the Creator.

Comments: To reinforce or explain the Creation the following are additional aspects:
1. Genesis 1:11-12 speaks of the grass and trees having seed and fruit after its kind. We rarely appreciate these phenomena, ignoring the wonder of the ability of each species of plant, bird, animal and fish to reproduce after its kind and for generation after generation.
2. The complexity of each of the species, our own bodies with each part dependent upon the other parts.
3. The balance of the seasons, the weather, the atmosphere, the sea and land.
4. Psalm 19 speaks of the existence of God as revealed in the glory and beauty of His creation and by the perfection and effectiveness of His spoken word to accomplish a godly character and salvation.
5. Proverbs 20:12 (KJV): “The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.” The complexity of both of these in all creatures reveal the design and effectivess of God’s power.
6. Paul’s statement in Romans 1:20 that creation clearly reveals God’s eternal power and Divinity.
7. Psalm 8 speaks of Yahweh as the Creator of heaven and earth. Jesus in Matthew 11:25-30 alludes to Psalm 8 and invites all to come unto him to find rest, as he is the centre of God’s creative plan. Jesus also summarises Psalm 8:1-3 and addresses Yahweh by saying, “I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth”.
8. Psalm 139 speaks of the omnipresence and omnipotence of God. In verses 13-16 the Psalmist speaks of his formation in the womb, but uses the expression “curiously wrought” and that he is “fearfully and wonderfully made”.

Conclusion: God exists, He is the Creator and as such He is the Only True God. He is revealed as Yahweh, the Creator and Lord of heaven and earth, and Jesus reveals Yahweh as His “Father” and unto us as God, the Father.

2 Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, The Promise of Eve’s Descendant
Summary: Genesis 1-2 speak of the creation of Adam and Eve, their circumstances in the Garden of Eden. It narrates their sin and sentence to death and expulsion from the Garden, and the promise that a descendant of Eve would suffer, but eventually be triumphant over the Serpent.

Comments: In this section many concepts, ideas, themes are introduced. Such ideas as the image and likeness of God, dominion, marriage, the way of the tree of life, the need for covering, cherubim. These are incomplete in the narrative, and are introduced by the Author as ideas that will be explained or find their fulfillment later. The promise concerning Eve’s descendant is expanded in Psalm 8 using the language of Genesis 1-3, showing that a Son of Man is destined to gain the dominion and bring into subjection all of God’s creation.

Conclusion: God is the Author of the whole Bible as it reveals His knowledge of the end from the beginning and also reveals His wisdom and understanding.

3 Abraham, the Promises and Melchizedek
Summary: Genesis 12-22 contains the history of Abraham. Abraham is the recipient of many promises and he responds by believing these promises. These important promises are detailed in Genesis 12:1-3 where all nations are to be blessed in Abraham, Genesis 13:14-15 where Abraham and his descendant are to receive the Land of Israel for ever, Genesis 15:5-6 concerning his descendant(s) and the Divine statement concerning his justification by faith. There is the promise concerning the birth of Isaac and later the events surrounding the sacrifice of Isaac. These reveal the growth of Abraham’s faith in the one true God, who could enable the birth of Isaac to a barren and old Sarah, and who could raise Isaac from the dead after being offered as a burnt sacrifice. In Genesis 14 we encounter Melchizedek, King of Salem and Priest. Abraham attributes his victory over the kings to Yahweh, the Most High God (El Elyon), the possessor of heaven and earth.

Comments: New concepts, ideas, themes are again introduced, as well as expansion of previous concepts. Again all of these are incomplete in the narrative, and will only be explained or find their fulfillment in Christ. The key concept of justification by faith is introduced, pointing forward to the full development of salvation in Christ. The land promise of Genesis 13:14-15 is properly revealed in Galatians 3:16,26-29, where Abraham, Christ and the faithful will inherit this and other promises. Abraham is set forth as the father of all that have faith. The brief mention of Melchizedek shows that there was true worship of the One God, in comparison to the many gods of Canaan.

Conclusion: The narrative reveals Abraham as a real life character, with his failings and yet increasingly his implicit trust in God. With God as the Author, the Divine guidance, wisdom, understanding, purpose and ways are revealed, and these are a pattern and foreshadowing of things that were yet to be fulfilled in Christ. God is described and revealed using many titles and also the Name Yahweh. Yahweh is the One True God.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Edit function is not working for me today; here is the link for the Peanut Gallery thread for this debate: YAHWEH is GOD - Peanut Gallery Thread

Edit function is still not working note the following changes in red due to a misunderstanding on my part:

Formal Debate - YAHWEH is GOD 1. will be taking the position “Yahweh is God”.
2. BlueLightningTN will be taking the position “Yahweh is not God”.
3. TrevorL will go first.
4. This debate will consist of 5 alternating rounds (5 posts each, a total of 10 posts)
5. Maximum lengths of posts will be 1000 words.
6. Maximum time between posts will be one week from the time a post is approved and made visible.
7. Outside quotes will be allowed, but will be subject to the 20% rule.
8. Start date: Any time.



Since this is considered a controversial topic by Christian forums the Peanut Gallery will be moderated and is located here:
YAHWEH is GOD - Peanut Gallery Thread

 

[BL2KTN]

Hello there everyone. I am very happy to have the chance to debate this important topic, and I'm glad that whatever the outcome, it will exist for the foreseeable future as a resource for those curious about this issue. I want to thank Mark for making it available, Trevor for taking it on, and I especially want to thank the readers for their interest.

Now this being a debate, I don't really expect Trevor to change his position irregardless of what occurs in the forthcoming dialogue. Zeus himself could come down out of the heavens, sit beside Trevor and tell him Yahweh is not real, and I do not believe it would affect Trevor's position. Trevor, you can correct me in the next post if I'm wrong. And, in all fairness, I do not believe that Trevor will provide any actual evidence that Yahweh is the god of the cosmos. So no, I don't think my position will change either. Therefore, you the reader, are the person I am aiming my debate for. I'm going to present my side in the best way I know how in order for you to have the best representation of the facts in order to better view the reality around you. Having said all of that, I do wish to let Trevor know that if he truly proves Yahweh is god of the cosmos, I will readily cease to hold my position both in this debate and in all public places and I will join him as a Yahweh believing person.

We should take a moment to ponder what Trevor's task is in this debate. He has taken the affirmative position, meaning that the burden of proof lies upon Trevor. For example, if Trevor were to tell me that my air conditioning does not function mechanically, but that instead air conditioning pixies make my air hot or cold, I would be in no way inclined to believe Trevor. In fact, I would be a gullible idiot were I to accept Trevor's statement based on faith. If Trevor believed in air conditioning pixies, Trevor would need to demonstrate their existence to me with evidence prior to my belief. It would not matter if Trevor had been raised believing in such pixies, or if millions of people believed in pixies - the truth of their evidence still needs verification. But not only would this be required for me to believe, it is necessary. It is necessary because belief is not a choice. Belief occurs when the preponderance of the evidence is great enough that the probability for the evidenced thing is greater than all other options. And to prove that belief is not a choice, consider if you were told you must believe 1+1=3 in order to receive a cookie. No honest could ever receive the cookie because belief is not a choice, and no person could ever honestly believe that 1+1=3. Faith could not sustain such a wish, even if the reward were a delicious, moist cookie.

Trevor means to prove with evidence that Yahweh is the creator of the cosmos. By doing this, Trevor would not only need to prove the existence of a god (meaning that if he does so, this debate should earn him a place in history and a Nobel Prize), but Trevor will also need to prove that of all the possible gods the god could be, it is the Canaanite god Yahweh, son of El, deity of the land of Judah during the Bronze Age. Now to do so, Trevor has cited the bible as a source of verifiable evidence. However, this is akin to a Muslim citing the Quran as a source of verifiable evidence for the existence of Allah. It is like a Mormon citing the Book of Mormon as a source of verifiable evidence for the existence of Joseph Smith's golden plates. If Trevor wishes to use the bible as evidence, he will first need to show that the bible is a reasonable source of sound evidence in this regard. This may be difficult given that I have already debated whether the bible is the word of God on this site, it's the first link in my signature, and anyone can see that I won that debate soundly (showing it is not). So unless the parts of the bible cited can be shown to be absolutely true, they cannot be admitted as reasonable evidence for the existence of a deity the bible advocates (in places) as existing. I, nor the reasonable audience members, will not be persuaded by stories of a man made of dirt (by El not Yahweh) and a woman made from his rib being tricked by a talking snake into eating a magic fruit that sentenced us all to die. And this is not unfair given that the story of Paul Bunyan is more believable yet we would not accept it as evidence of factual truth in this debate either.

Unless Trevor can show the bible is reliable evidence in the locations he cites (and consider that the majority of Christians don't accept the creation myth as based on real events), he will need corroborating evidence of Yahweh's existence. But unfortunately, we have no recorded historical Greeks, Chinese, Japanese, Mayans, Polynesians, Australians, etc, having ever heard of this Yahweh god. It seems that if Yahweh is the creator of the cosmos, he only revealed himself to a handful of people in a tiny piece of real estate: the Canaanites who believed in him and other gods, and the Hebrews who believed in him and other gods (otherwise why did they get in trouble from time to time for worshiping them). And according to the bible - which I am using as evidence for what the bible teaches, not its factual veracity - the god of the bible believed in other gods:

And against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment. Exodus 12:12

So again, not only does Trevor need to show that God exists, but also needs to show that one specific god, Yahweh, is Creator of the Cosmos.

Good luck.

 

[TrevorL]

Yahweh is God - Part 2 – Moses, David and Response

My aim is to briefly traverse the Bible attempting to show that the Bible is complete, witnessing to the truth of its message and revealing that Yahweh is God.

4 Moses, The Yahweh Name and the Deliverance from Egypt
Summary: Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy relate to the period of Moses, the deliverance from Egypt, the giving of the Law, and Israel’s wandering in the wilderness. The Yahweh Name was revealed to Moses at the burning bush, and was connected with the deliverance of Israel from Egypt. In Exodus 34, when Moses asked to see God’s glory, Yahweh links His character with His Name by saying: “Yahweh, Yahweh El, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth.”

Comments: Many concepts, ideas, themes are introduced. Some of these continue key concepts introduced in Genesis 1-3. The Tabernacle has the Most Holy Place and the Ark with the Cherubim is a new or expanded view of the Way to the Tree of Life being guarded by the Cherubim. The RV and RSV marginal rendition of the Yahweh Name “I will be that I will be” or “become” is commendable, connecting God’s Name with the anticipated deliverance of Israel from Egypt. Exodus 3:12 and 6:1-8 reinforces this view. After the deliverance the Song of Moses states “Yahweh is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation” Exodus15:2. God’s purpose revealed in His Name had been fulfilled when Yahweh had become their salvation. Abraham did not “know” Yahweh’s Name as expressive of this deliverance.

Conclusion: The One Author is further unfolding His purpose, but the full story is still anticipated. The revelation of the Yahweh Name becomes primarily associated with the history of the deliverance of Israel, and becomes a benchmark for all of God’s dealings with Israel throughout their turbulent history. There is an increasing revelation of the character and ways of Yahweh.

5 David, the Encounter with Goliath, and the Promise to David
Summary: The Bible gives extensive coverage of the life of David, the shepherd king of Israel. He is called “a man after God’s own heart” and his character is revealed through his trials and leadership. His conflict with Goliath, his psalms and music, his worship and preparation for the Temple are all remarkable. God also promised to David that his descendant, who would also be the Son of God, would sit upon the throne of David forever.

Comments: Psalm 8, David’s psalm of praise, was written to commemorate the defeat of Goliath. It draws upon the language and circumstances of Genesis 1-3 and then prophetically looks forward to the Son of Man who will in the future fulfil God’s purpose in creation. This Psalm is extensively quoted in the NT and applied to Christ. The Angel Gabriel announced to Mary that Jesus would inherit the throne of David and rule over the house of Israel forever. Psalm 145 another psalm of praise, shows the fullness of David’s godly character and his appreciation of God’s character and ways. David’s last words in 2 Samuel 23 show that his heart was set upon the distant future when the Messiah would subject all things and reign in righteousness and mercy. A theme developed from this period is “the sure mercies of David” and ultimately speaks of the resurrection. Many of the psalms take the framework of David’s circumstances and trials, but can only have their true and complete fulfillment in Christ. Psalm 110 is the second and last reference to Melkizedek in the OT, and this depicts a future King-Priest greater than David, undoubtedly speaking of Jesus Christ.

Conclusion: The Divine hand is guiding David and directing his circumstances so that his life is a prophetic framework revealing the future sufferings of the Messiah and a foretaste of the future Kingdom. The promise to David concerning his throne is a prophecy of the future Kingdom of God upon the earth. David is a God-centred man, and the events in his life reveal the reality and character of God. Yahweh is God.

Response
I appreciate your colourful introduction regarding Zeus, pixies and an impending award of a Nobel Prize. I can endorse your statement concerning “the preponderance of the evidence”. I presented evidence that there is a Creator, Yahweh as revealed in the Bible. What Deity do you acknowledge?

Your claim that Yahweh was one of the gods of the Canaanites may be valid but this only proves their apostasy and moral decline. I commented that Abraham, with Melchizedek, linked Yahweh and El as the One True God, possessor (or creator) of heaven and earth. Here was true worship.

You speak of El as the Creator, but Genesis 1-3 use Yahweh and Elohim. Each word has a range of meaning and they reveal the One God of the Bible. El is the Hebrew word for Might, Power. Elohim is a plural and depending on context could be “Mighty Ones” or an intensive form of Eloah “Mighty One”. There are other titles for the One God.

Inspiration Debate Sampler: Your “cliffhanger” Exodus 6:2-3 and Yahweh and El perspectives see above. Genesis 33:20 "’el ’elohe yišra’el" can be translated that God is the Strength of the Mighty Ones of Israel. The Mighty Ones are the Angels prominent in the providential care of Jacob. Exodus 13:2 is based on the Passover in Egypt. Matthew 22:41-45, Psalm 110 Christ is the son of David and the Son of God.

Your argument concerning Muslims, Mormons, majority of Christians rejecting Genesis 1-3, your partial parody of Genesis 3, and the lack of understanding amongst many early civilisations does not dismiss that Yahweh the God of the Bible is the One True God. It is the final outcome from small beginnings that will have ultimate effect throughout the whole earth. Only a few witnessed the crucifixion, and less the resurrection, but the final outcome will be effectual John3:16; 12:27-28,32-33 Numbers14:21, Psalm 8.

 

[BL2KTN]

I had hoped that Trevor would recognize that his evidence for Yahweh has thus far been terribly misguided. I had hoped he would recognize that citing the bible as evidence for Yahweh's existence is no more impressive than citing the Quran as evidence for Allah, or citing the Shruti for the evidence of Vishnu. I offered for Trevor to show us reason why the bible should be any more convincing than those texts, given that they advocate different deities than Yahweh. I asked for more evidence beyond the bible, something that corroborates the exitence of Yahweh, anything... and Trevor has failed to provide it. Instead, Trevor has doubled down with the bible, failing to show why it should be considered as a source of factual truth, and generally pretended this is a monologue rather than a debate.

That said, towards the end, Trevor decides he will actually respond and debate things I've said. He dedicates 312 of his 996 total words to such an endeavor. So for less than a third of his response, he's actually debating... the rest is just a sermon based on non-evidence. Because Trevor has failed to show why any of his monologue is pertinent or valid evidence in support of his position, all I know to do is discard it. Perhaps he will show us why it should be accepted over the Quran, the Book of Mormon, the Book of the Dead, the Illiad, etc. So far that hasn't happened.

For the small amount of text that Trevor acted like this is a debate, I'll respond quote by quote. I wouldn't normally do that in an official debate, but it only makes sense here given how little there is to respond to:

I appreciate your colourful introduction regarding Zeus, pixies and an impending award of a Nobel Prize. I can endorse your statement concerning “the preponderance of the evidence”. I presented evidence that there is a Creator, Yahweh as revealed in the Bible. What Deity do you acknowledge?

This is the Unwarranted Assumption Fallacy. You unwarrantedly assume that the bible is evidence of Yahweh, yet you have failed to show why. Why should it be accepted over all other books about the divine?

As for what deity I acknowledge: God.

Your claim that Yahweh was one of the gods of the Canaanites may be valid but this only proves their apostasy and moral decline. I commented that Abraham, with Melchizedek, linked Yahweh and El as the One True God, possessor (or creator) of heaven and earth. Here was true worship.

If Abraham and Melchizedek linked Yahweh and El together, then it makes no sense when Yahweh reveals to Moses that he has been El all along (at the burning bush). At least it doesn't make sense until you realize that the people editing the Torah's story about El and Yahweh didn't do a perfect job of meshing it all together.

You speak of El as the Creator, but Genesis 1-3 use Yahweh and Elohim. Each word has a range of meaning and they reveal the One God of the Bible. El is the Hebrew word for Might, Power. Elohim is a plural and depending on context could be “Mighty Ones” or an intensive form of Eloah “Mighty One”. There are other titles for the One God.

You're doing a great job here of showing how even the bible discredits this idea that Yahweh is the creator of the cosmos.

1) If you read Hebrew, you know that Genesis 1 is the story of El creating the universe. Genesis 2 is the story of Yahweh creating the universe. The stories are totally different, with different orders, different narratives, and -most importantly- different gods. El is the only god in Genesis 1, Yahweh is the only god in Genesis 2.

2) They do not have a range of meaning. Yahweh means Yahweh. El means either "El" the chief god in the Canaanite pantheon or the generic term of a "god". "Elohim" is the plural for "god", but the Hebrews used it later on to mean a "majestic plural" in order to explain why their scriptures referred to many gods while they now believed in one.

3) There may be many titles for God. We're only dealing with Yahweh.

Your “cliffhanger” Exodus 6:2-3 and Yahweh and El perspectives see above. Genesis 33:20 "’el ’elohe yišra’el" can be translated that God is the Strength of the Mighty Ones of Israel. The Mighty Ones are the Angels prominent in the providential care of Jacob. Exodus 13:2 is based on the Passover in Egypt. Matthew 22:41-45, Psalm 110 Christ is the son of David and the Son of God.

You obviously can't read Hebrew. The phrase "’el ’elohe yišra’el" means "El, god of Israel" (and yišra’el literally means "may El persevere"). "El, god of Israel" is one of the chief ways we know the early Hebrews worshiped the Canaanite god El because it identifies him here as the specific god of Israel.

Your argument concerning Muslims, Mormons, majority of Christians rejecting Genesis 1-3, your partial parody of Genesis 3, and the lack of understanding amongst many early civilisations does not dismiss that Yahweh the God of the Bible is the One True God.

I can easily dismiss that which you have thus far provided no evidence for. So can everyone else. Where's the evidence?

It is the final outcome from small beginnings that will have ultimate effect throughout the whole earth. Only a few witnessed the crucifixion, and less the resurrection, but the final outcome will be effectual John3:16; 12:27-28,32-33 Numbers14:21, Psalm 8.

All of this is make-believe. It's a giant mountain of make-believe built on top of a make-believe Yahweh that you have thus far given zero evidence for. I'm hoping you soon will or this is going to be an awfully boring and lopsided debate.

 

[TrevorL]

Yahweh is God - Part 3 – The Prophets, Jesus and Response

6 The Prophets and The Prophetic Writings
Summary: God used the framework of the prophet’s circumstances to predict the things of Christ. Isaiah’s prophecy is interwoven with four of Judah’s kings and Assyria. Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel speak of Israel in the context of the 70-year Babylonian captivity. Isaiah2:1-5 reveals a picture of the future Kingdom on earth. The nations coming to Jerusalem to worship and cessation of warfare is in stark contrast to Uzziah’s obsession with all types of armaments. Isaiah 6 reveals Jesus as King-Priest and the call of the prophet Isaiah and his given message and this anticipates Messiah’s message. Isaiah7-12 is The Immanuel Prophecies given in Ahaz’s reign. It predicts the coming of a future King, a Branch of David. This was partly fulfilled in Hezekiah, but looked forward to the true Immanuel, God with us, Jesus Christ. Isaiah40-53 is The Servant Prophecies. Isaiah 42:1-7 speaks of the quiet but effectual ministry of God’s Servant. Isaiah52:15-53:12 draws upon the sufferings of Hezekiah, but fully depicts the sufferings of Jesus and his death and resurrection. Ezekiel38 speaks of a latter day invasion of Israel by a King of the North, after the Jews returned in unbelief. The outcome, both Israel and the nations will learn that Yahweh is God. Daniel2 outlines the four Empires of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. The final result will be the overthrow of the latter-day manifestation of these kingdoms and the establishment of the Kingdom of God. Zechariah14 is similar to Ezekiel38 and Isaiah2:1-4.

Comments: Isaiah6-12 and Isaiah40-53 are extensively quoted in the NT and applied to Jesus. The name of the prophet Isaiah represents “the Salvation of Yah” and his book is often called the 5th Gospel because of the prophecies and detail concerning the Messiah. Daniel 2 was given at the height of the Babylonian Empire, but Daniel prophesied its demise and replacement by three successive empires. Isaiah41:21-24 challenges the idols to predict what is yet to happen. In contrast Amos3:7 states that God reveals the future through his prophets.

Conclusion: The overall picture is becoming clearer, revealing more detail of the sufferings of Christ and future glory of the Kingdom. With many of the prophecies fulfilled, especially those that relate to the sufferings and exaltation of Jesus, we can be can be confident that the prophecies of the Kingdom will be fulfilled. Yahweh is the One True God and His purpose will be fulfilled.

7 The Yahweh Name Revealed in Jesus
Summary: The Yahweh Name, revealed in association with Israel’s deliverance from Egypt, now becomes centred in Jesus, Yahweh’s salvation Matthew1:20-21. The character of Yahweh revealed to Moses is now embodied in the Word made flesh, who is full of grace and truth John1:14. Instead of Yahweh, Jesus speaks of God as His Father Psalm8:1, Matthew11:25. Jesus says in his prayer to His Father, “I have manifested Thy Name” John17:5.

Comments:The Passover has close connections with the mission of Jesus. John proclaimed “Behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world” John1:29. Part of the Song of Moses is echoed in the Passover Psalm118:14 “Yahweh is my strength and song, and is become my salvation.” The redeemed will sing The Song of Moses and the Song of the Lamb Revelation15:3. The Yahweh Name will be complete when God will be “all in all” 1Corinthians15:28.

Conclusion:We are starting to reach the focus of the Bible, and Yahweh who delivered Israel out of Egypt was revealing and foreshadowing a greater deliverance in and through Jesus, Yah’s salvation. The Name Jesus and the relationship of God the Father with His Son become prominent in the NT.

Response
The subject is not the Quran or the Book of Mormon, but they are inadequate. My position is that “Yahweh is God”, that “Yahweh as revealed in the Bible exists and He is the One True God”. Your position is “Yahweh is not God”, but your definition “the Canaanite god Yahweh, son of El, deity of the land of Judah during the Bronze Age”. Congratulations!!!, you have won your debate. I agree that the Canaanitish gods are not God. But I had hoped for something better, as you are a “Christian Deist” and your favourite verse is John3:16, but now you tell me “All of this is make-believe”. Are the Canaanitish gods your specialist field of study? – “Scholar, Author, Educator”.

1) If you read Hebrew, you know that Genesis 1 is the story of El creating the universe. Genesis 2 is the story of Yahweh creating the universe. The stories are totally different, with … different gods. El is the only god in Genesis 1, Yahweh is the only god in Genesis 2.

The first occurrence of Hebrew “El”S#410 is Genesis14:18 relating to Abraham and Melchizedek where the One True God is described as Yahweh, El and the Creator. “Elohim”S#430 (not “El”S#410) occurs in Genesis 1. Yahweh Elohim, occurs in Genesis 2. Elohim and Yahweh occur in Genesis 3. What verses in Genesis 3 do you cut or separate to fit your theory?

2) They do not have a range of meaning. Yahweh means Yahweh. El means either "El" the chief god in the Canaanite pantheon or the generic term of a "god". "Elohim" is the plural for "god", a "majestic plural" …now believed in one.

Yahweh does have a meaning defined in Exodus3:14 by “I will be who I will be” and Exodus6:1-5 explains this concept. KJV translates Elohim as “gods” in Genesis3:5, Psalm82:6, “judges” in Exodus22:8 and “angels” in Psalm8:5. The plural of El is Elim Exodus15:11, not Elohim. I reaffirm my statement concerning "’el ’elohe yišra’el".

Inspiration Debate Sampler: Micah5:2,6 were partially fulfilled in Hezekiah, and verse2 has been fulfilled in Jesus, and verse6 will be fulfilled when the latter-day king of the north invades Israel.

 

[BL2KTN]

Apology

I'd like to apologize to the readers, as if you've made it this far, this is a waste of your time. Again, Trevor has failed to understand this is a debate. He continues to monologue for the majority of his posts with sermons about the bible, failing to ever explain why the bible is acceptable evidence for this beyond any other conflicting writings about the divine. Again he has devoted scant amount towards responding to anything I have said, and what he does respond to is ridiculously insufficient.

I guess again in this non-debate, I'll respond to the even-less material Trevor has decided to dialogue with me.

The Little I Can Respond To

The subject is not the Quran or the Book of Mormon, but they are inadequate.

The subject is not the bible either. Why is your bible proof of Yahweh, but the Quran and Book of Mormon are not disproofs? Why are the sacred Hindu texts not disproofs?

My position is that “Yahweh is God”, that “Yahweh as revealed in the Bible exists and He is the One True God”.

And you have yet to give a single piece of evidence toward this. The "debate" is almost over, and I wish someone else had taken your position. Thus far, this has been nearly pointless because you aren't proving or demonstrating anything related to the topic. It's weird.

Your position is “Yahweh is not God”, but your definition “the Canaanite god Yahweh, son of El, deity of the land of Judah during the Bronze Age”.

This isn't an actual sentence, so I don't know what you mean.

Congratulations!!!, you have won your debate.

At least Pshun knew what a debate is.

I agree that the Canaanitish gods are not God.

Then that rules out Yahweh.

But I had hoped for something better, as you are a “Christian Deist” and your favourite verse is John3:16, but now you tell me “All of this is make-believe”.

My favorite verse is John 3:17, and I have favorite passages from "Oh the Places You'll Go" as well.

Are the Canaanitish gods your specialist field of study? – “Scholar, Author, Educator”.

One of my degrees is in Biblical Studies, and I have spent significant time on the Canaanite gods, one of whom is Yahweh, another El.

The first occurrence of Hebrew “El”S#410 is Genesis14:18 relating to Abraham and Melchizedek where the One True God is described as Yahweh, El and the Creator.

I don't know what S#410 is, but I'm guessing you're going to Strong's accordance? That would mean you don't know Hebrew at all, and you're just looking up words. The first occurrence of El is in Genesis 1, in which the plural (gods) is used throughout (elohim). It says, "bere’shît bara’ ’elohîm," meaning "In the beginning of the gods creating." Later, the Jewish people would recognize "elohim" to sometimes be a "majestic plural" that, though plural, meant one god (El). This was a result of Israel's move from polytheism to monotheism.

“Elohim”S#430 (not “El”S#410) occurs in Genesis 1.

Elohim is plural for El. The elohim were the gods, all of whom were descended from El, the father of all gods.

Yahweh Elohim, occurs in Genesis 2.

"Yahweh elohim" literally means "Yahweh of the gods". In order to avoid this reveal of polytheism, English translations use "Lord of lords". It is a purposeful masking of the truth.

Elohim and Yahweh occur in Genesis 3.

What's your point?

What verses in Genesis 3 do you cut or separate to fit your theory?

Again, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Yahweh does have a meaning defined in Exodus3:14 by “I will be who I will be” and Exodus6:1-5 explains this concept.

"I will be who I will be" is expressed differently than the term "yahweh" in Hebrew. I'm sure the writers of Exodus wrote the term "yawheh" meant such, but there is no grammatical support. It would be like me saying the word "God" means "all-powerful," but in reality it doesn't.

KJV translates Elohim as “gods” in Genesis3:5, Psalm82:6, “judges” in Exodus22:8 and “angels” in Psalm8:5. The plural of El is Elim Exodus15:11, not Elohim.

I don't care what the KJV does. The word "elohim" is plural for "gods" and if they're acting as judges in Exodus 22:8, that's fine. And if translators decided to translate "gods" as "angels" in Psalm 8:5, that's iffy but whatever. And yes, the plural for El can be Elim, but typically it wasn't as El can also be pronounced Eloah, thus the reason for Elohim being the plural version (and used far, far more often).

I reaffirm my statement concerning "’el ’elohe yišra’el".

I don't care because you don't read Hebrew. 'El 'elohe yišra’el absolutely means El god of Israel, and yišra’el literally means "May El persevere". I don't care what you affirm any more than if you affirm erroneous translations in other languages you don't understand.

See reference 74 in this "The Collected Letters of C.S. Lewis, Volume 2": https://books.google.com/books?id=s...6AEwBTgU#v=onepage&q=yišra’el meaning&f=false

Conclusion

It's the third round and I'm ready for this debate to be over. This is a joke. I have nothing to debate because Trevor isn't supporting his position. He's asserting his position, he's doing a weird bible study not related to the position, but there's no support whatsoever of his claims.

I can sum up Trevor's position in three words:

False Authority Fallacy.

 

[TrevorL]

Yahweh is God - Part 4 – Jesus and His Teaching, Crucifixion and Resurrection and Response

8. The Birth, Development, Teaching and Character of Jesus
The narrative of Jesus’ birth and development is familiar to most. It may be sufficient to recall the humility of his birth and those that God chose to be witnesses, the shepherds and the wise men, bypassing the seats of learning and authority in Jerusalem. Of his development not much is disclosed except when he was twelve, and the statement Luke2:52: “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.” The uniqueness of his birth and development have a Divine stamp on their authenticity.

Similarly the uniqueness of Jesus’ teaching in Matthew5-7 shows their Divine source. The Beatitudes describe the type of character acceptable to God, the revealing of motives when Jesus considers the commandment against killing and adultery and teaching to love one’s enemies. The simplicity and yet perfect balance of the Lord’s Prayer including “Our Father, Hallowed be Thy Name, Thy Kingdom come” and the parable of the two builders.

The parables are easy to remember word-pictures that convey a wealth of meaning, for example The Sower and The Prodigal Son. The miracles indicate that Jesus has been given authority over all things. Jesus’ gradual transformation of his disciples and his contact with all people reveal his character. Peter’s threefold denial and threefold affirmation after the resurrection is evidence of the reality of the narrative.

The following are statements from two writers, the first about Jesus, and second concerning John’s Gospel.

Christ, of whom it was prophesied that “a bruised reed shall he not break, and dimly burning flax shall he not quench”; came to seek and save that which was lost; and gave his life for men who were unrighteous and unthankful. Christ came not to do his own will but the will of the One who sent him. In his service to humanity he surrendered himself entirely to God, and the result of this self-effacement was a human personality so strong and distinctive that it shines through history with a lustre that makes the individualism of self-expressing men look dull and dirty.I.C.1957

John’s words are at once simple and profound. Their depth becomes more evident the longer they are studied. This befits the subject matter because it concerns the highest claims made by any man.J.C.1943

Taste and see.

9. The Trial, Crucifixion, Death and Resurrection of Jesus
The narrative of these events is again familiar to most. The four Gospel records spend nearly half of their accounts on the Last Week in the life of our Lord. He voluntarily submitted to the crucifixion, so that through death and resurrection he could bear and remove the sins of those who put faith and their trust in Him. Being united with him by faith in his death and resurrection they will also at the return of Christ be united with him in resurrection.
John12:27-28: Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
Galatians2:20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
2Timothy4:7-8: I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

The writer to the Hebrews states:
God,
having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners,
hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son
The corresponding part to the underlined portion is inferred and is the basis of his exposition. While the past revelations were fragmentary, as shadows of good things to come, the revelation in Christ is complete and final.

Response:
I apologise for the lack of clarity and proficiency in writing. I do not apologise for the brief framework of Bible teaching indicating that Yahweh is God. As Yahweh occurs 6519 times in the Bible then the claims and teaching of the Bible need to be examined. The Canaanite gods, the Book of Mormon or Quran are blind alleys. You have not presented a convincing alternative to the God of the Bible. Has your God revealed Himself, and in what way?

Then that rules out Yahweh.

You continue to associate “Yahweh” with a Canaanitish god. If this is based on some evidence then I have already suggested this is a corruption of the true worship centred in Melchizedek.

Yes I use an electronic Strongs as a first step, but this links to other reference books. Despite your claim to knowledge of Hebrew, some of your explanations of words run counter to what I read. In my reference material Yahweh is derived from ehyeh(Strongs#1961), even if Yahweh is from older form of the verb “to be”.. El is the common word for Power, Strength and Elohim is not directly its plural as you claim.

My comment concerning Genesis3 was on the basis that I suspected that you were advocating your own version of a Documentary Hypothesis.

Psalm 8:5 Elohim is translated angels and I agree it is a bit iffy because angels is a different Hebrew word. But a closer look shows a distinction between Yahweh and Elohim in Psalm8:1,5. Hebrews 2 confirms “angels”. This becomes a key to understanding the plurality in Genesis1:26 and the true meaning of Elohim. Jesus also confirms a plurality for Elohim in John10:34-35

 

[BL2KTN]

I asked for a reason to accept the bible over other religious books. None has been given.

I asked for corroborating evidence. None has been given.

If we're supposed to believe Yahweh is the creator of the cosmos, those would be bare minimum starts. Instead the off-topic bible study continues.

That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Consider the position of Yahweh's existence dismissed. Mark, if you can find someone else to debate the issue let me know - even though I don't believe for a second that Yahweh is real, this debate hasn't been fair to the Christian side given the total lack of substantive argument.

 

[TrevorL]

Yahweh is God - Part 5 – Concluding Comments

I appreciate this facility provided by Christian Forums and Mark’s supervision and help in this process. I also appreciate BlueLightningTN’s participation.

My aim from the start in affirming that “Yahweh is God”, was to show that Yahweh as revealed in the Bible exists and He is the One True God.

The Creation is evidence that there is a God and the Bible, when carefully considered, reveals that Yahweh is this One True God.

Some further support for this has been shown in Sections 2-9, where the revelation of God in many parts and many ways through the prophets, anticipates and finds its focus and fulfillment in the complete and final revelation of God through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

God has been guiding events, and bringing them to a climax in Jesus and the salvation that was to be fully revealed in Him. The very way the Scriptures unfold show that the Author knew from the beginning the final outcome. Thus Yahweh, the God of the Bible, exists and is the One True God.

It is hoped that those with discerning minds will further consider these things, become united in the salvation available in Jesus and wait in patience and love the appearance of our Lord from heaven.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[BL2KTN]

Well, I don't know that this could be called a debate. It's been more or less an off-topic bible study conducted by Trevor while I wait for him to give some form of evidence for Yahweh being the creator of the cosmos. In the end, it was never given. Despite me explaining to Trevor that the bible is one of many religious books that tell of many gods, Trevor failed to ever explain why the bible was especially true and the others were especially not. Despite me explaining to Trevor that the bible is polytheistic, Trevor never explained how it is not beyond some erroneous understandings of Hebrew that I corrected.

So this whole thread has been a False Authority Fallacy. But you know, it kind of has to be, doesn't it? You see, there's no evidence of Yahweh at all outside the bible and Canaanite religious mythos. There's none. And I suppose that's the most damning bit of information out there against Yahweh as creator. As a piece of history, he's a fictional war god and patron god of an ancient people in a region where many gods were believed in, he included. And outside of there, nobody ever heard of him until Christianity was spread by the crumbling Roman empire.

So there you go. A defense of Yahweh that is based on a fictional creation allegory which the majority of Christians even deny as actual history. A defense of Yahweh based on a special religious book that is more special than all the other special religious books that contradict this more special one. You know, you really have to wonder after four debates in which I have soundly won, what's going on? I mean, Christians, if you have the truth, and the truth is so profound that it's worth sending deniers to hell, why can't it win in a single debate? Four debates, four wins against Christianity. You're supposed to have the god of the cosmos on your side, providing you with absolute truth... and... nothing. Perhaps I should invoke the message of Elijah here? Hopefully you don't take that as mocking, but instead think about why the truth of the cosmos can't beat a schlum like me on a little online forum. Maybe the truth is, it isn't the truth after all.

Anyway, it was interesting. I appreciate Trevor contributing, though in all honesty this was not a real debate. I appreciate Mark for actually allowing me to do this. And I look forward to a fifth debate in the future - hopefully against whoever is out there who finally can defend the foundations of the Christianity. I'd love to be wrong, but thus far I see little defense for the faith.

BL

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

BlueLightningTN asked me to place an addendum; as per his request:

Although I still have major concerns about the bible, I have had a change of heart on some things. Please <know> that I believe in a loving God and finding truth wherever it is found.