Formal Debate-Sacramental Confession and Sin-Judechild/gideon army

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Title: Sacramental Confession and Sin.
Topic: Does a person receive forgiveness of sin in Sacramental Confession?

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Stipulations:

1. Topic: Does a person receive forgiveness of sin in Sacramental Confession? Title: Sacramental Confession and Sin.
2. Affirmative: judechild; Negative: gideon army.
3. There will be 3 rounds.
4. Alternating. judechild will be the first to post.
5. N/A
6. Time limit between posts will be One week.
7. Length of each post will be no longer than 2700 words.Sources other than
   
8. Sources other than Scripture are not allowed to be used as evidence or debate material. Note: *Debate must remain within discussion of the themes of sin and repentance, and their relationship to Sacramental Confession. Debate may not involve discussion of history and/or the form of the Sacrament.*
9. The debate will begin 13 April 2010, if possible.

Please click here for link to the peanut gallery thread: Peanut Gallery: Formal Debate-Sacramental Confession and Sin.

 

[judechild]

For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have Mercy on us, and on the whole world.

Before I begin, I would like to thank the board and the staff here for hosting this discussion on Sacramental Confession. I’d also, of course, like to thank Gideon Army for agreeing to this exchange, and I hope it will be fruitful for all involved and for those observing.

There are three main themes that I mean to bring up over the course of this debate. They are: the Church as the Body of Christ, the role of Mediation in the life of the Christian, and sin and repentance. I will not treat them all equally in all posts, yet will try my best to give them all adequate representation. With that; let’s all take a moment for spontaneous prayer, and then proceed.

Sin. It’s real. Even after I have come to faith in God, and claim to love my Creator and Father, I still sin and offend the Loving King. Because of my sin, according to the fore-sight of Isaiah 53:5: “he was pierced for our offenses, crushed for our sins, upon him was the chastisement that makes us whole, by His stripes we were healed.” Raised between heaven and earth, Christ was like the serpent in the desert: “just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,” fulfilling the pre-figurement of Numbers 21:9: “Moses accordingly made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever anyone who had been bitten by a serpent looked at the bronze serpent, he recovered.” Clearly, Salvation comes only from the Cross of Christ. Indeed, “this One offered one sacrifice for sins, and took His seat forever at the right hand of God” (Heb 10:12), and His sacrifice is the only one truly acceptable to God. Grace is the fruit of the new Tree of Life, the Cross of Christ, which reverses the damage done by the misuse of the fruit of the first Tree. This no one disputes who knows anything about Christ.

What is disputed is the method of God’s communication of this Grace. If we think of the soul as a delicate plant in an irrigated garden, grace as water flowing to the plant through irrigation pipes, and sin as mud, one can understand that if the pipes are clogged by mud the plant will die. The plant cannot help itself, it will simply die. The only thing that can happen is the Gardener must unblock the pipes.

Christ, the mediator (“there is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, Himself human,” [1 Tim 2:5]), acts as the gardener of souls, and he also allows other to serve in that role of mediation and cultivation (“ask the master of the harvest to send out laborers for His harvest” [Mt 9:38]). This is further obvious by His actions while He was still with us on Earth; He chose Apostles to represent Him, and to bring Him to others. When, for example, He says to His Apostles “as you go, make this proclamation: ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ / Cure the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, drive out demons” (Mt 10:7-8), what is He doing except to send them out in His own Name and under His own Power to do these things? Who would say that they do these things apart from Christ, or by their own power? It is Jesus who, throughout the New Testament cures the sick, raises the dead, cleanses lepers, and drives out demons; now, however, He gives that power given to Him by the Father (“’all power in heaven and on earth has been given to me” [Mt 28:18]) to His Apostles (“go, therefore&#8221. Since it is Jesus who gives the power over temporal things to the Apostles, it should come as no surprise that He extends His gifts to spiritual authority as well. Among other places, we see this in John 20:23: “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained." Keep in mind that in this passage, Jesus spoke to His Apostles after His Passion and resurrection; after the Sacrifice Once for All that has brought us redemption, He has given the Apostles the power to forgive sins. Therefore, Christ, the Gardener of souls, forgives our sins through the ministry of the Apostles and their successors; the workers for the harvest. These successors are self-evident, unless Christ was such a poor Planner that He didn’t anticipate that His friends would not live throughout the period of Church history.

We see the first case of Apostolic Succession is recorded in the book of Acts (1:15-26) where Matthias is elected to succeed the traitor Judas; the Apostles based this decision on the command “'May another take his office.” In the epistles, we see the Apostle Paul commanding Timothy to hand down his teaching and spiritual authority to the next generation; they, in turn, are to teach others: “and what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well” (2 Tim 2:2). The bishops of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches can trace their lineage directly back to the Twelve. Since, therefore, they are the successors to the office of the Apostles, the question now remains that when a person succeeds another in office, does the new person receive all the powers and authorities of that office? It is clear by looking at the biblical account that the answer is yes. In Isaiah 22, “Shebna, master of the palace” (v. 15) is rebuked for his immorality (“you disgrace to your master’s house” [v. 18]) and so he is told “I will thrust you from your office and pull you down from your station” (v. 19). However, the office will not remain empty: “on that day I will summon my servant Eliakin, Son of Hilkiah” (v. 20). This new official will have all the powers and authorities that the Shebna had once had, and abused: “I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open” (v. 22). Obviously, the one who controls the keys in a palace has authority over who may come in.

Finally, the Church is the body of Christ, and so we must ask: does Christ’s Body have the power to forgive sins or not? If it does not, we waste our time, and would be better off not bothering trying to know God through Christianity. If Christ’s Body does not contain forgiveness of sins, then His sacrifice means nothing and He is a failure. But if, in fact, the forgiveness of sins, and the restoration of Grace can be found in the Body of Christ, then we know that it is accessible to us, and that we may attain it in the way that God intended. When I sin, I sin against God “against you alone have I sinned” (Ps 51:6). When I sin against God, I sin against His Body. When I sin against God’s Body, I must be reconciled to Him, and to His Body. For that reason, St. James reminds us “therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed” (James 5:16). This is in the context of the efficacious nature of the prayers and actions of the priests: “Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the Church… and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven” (5:14-15). Therefore, the reasonable conclusion is that James is commanding the people to confess to the priests, and the priests to each other. Since God worked such wonders through Elijah as drought and torrent, why would He not do greater things through humanity in the New Covenant?

The Sacrament of Penance involves three actions: contrition, Confession, and Penance; I will cover the first two first. We see this pre-figured in the Old Testament, and brought to life in the New. Throughout the Old Testament, the Israelites must offer sacrifice and contrition for their sins. For example: “if any person refuses to give the information which, as a witness of something he has seen or learned, he has been adjured to give, and thus commits a sin and has guilt to bear… he shall bring to the Lord a female animal from the flock, a ewe lamb or a she-goat” (Lev. 5:1, 6). When the entire nation has turned from God, the entire nation must make reparation: “the Israelites again offended the Lord… then the Israelites cried out to the Lord, ‘We have sinned against you; we have forsaken our God and have served the Baals’” (Judges 10:6, 10). They then throw out their idols, and God allowed Israel to be free again from the Ammonites: “Jephthah then went on to the Ammonites to fight against them, and the Lord delivered them into his power” (v. 32). Contrition, however, was not enough. They Israelites also had to confess to the priest as they made their sin-offering: “then whoever is guilty in any of these cases shall confess the sin he has incurred” (Lev. 5:5).

Maybe some would say this is confined to the Old Testament, and that now “since we have a great high priest” (Heb. 4:14) Who’s Ultimate Sacrifice means “there is no longer offering for sin” (Heb 10:18) this is all unnecessary. That is true; we do not any longer make sacrifices for our own sins, because the High Priest has made the only truly acceptable one. That does not, however, mean that everyone is saved. If everyone was saved without the requirement of any response on our part, then earth would have passed away already, and all of us would be in Heaven. Instead, Christ tells us “But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved” (Mt 24:13). It is the Grace flowing from the Cross of Christ that saves, but we are not perfected all at once, and if we do not keep to that path of Grace, we will be lost. Hence, the virgins who were not ready for the Bridegroom when He returned in Matthew 25:1-13 were left outside and were unable to come to the wedding feast which prefigures the Wedding Feast of the Lamb of Revelation 19:6-10.

Sin is real, so Jesus did the most real thing He could; He died for us. In order to bring us into the Love of God that we had rejected in the Garden of Eden, He gave authority to His Apostles to go in His Name and to forgive sins. Like to the priests of old, the People of God must confess their sins to these ministers of God’s Grace in order that they may be forgiven of their sins, and then hear the words that every Catholic hears in the Confessional “go now, your sins are forgiven.” We may be like the crowds and be “struck with awe… God who had given such authority to human beings” (Mt 9:8), but just as Christ came to us in both body and spirit, so too has He ordained His ministers to declare forgiveness of sins in a manner both bodily and spiritually. The Gardener came into the Garden, and then He left… but He didn’t leave us alone; He is still present in His apprentice gardeners. Finally, therefore, I ask God to always give me the grace and humility to make a good Confession of my sins whenever I should fall, so that I may hear His words of Mercy.

 

[gideon army]

My deepest apologies to one & all especially to 'Judechild' plus all the esteem Mods/admins.

Confess that appears in the NT are primary made up of two different Greek words. They are:-

(1) homologeō (which can be found in :- Matt 10:32/Luke 12:8/John 9:22/ John 12:42/ Acts 23:8/ Acts 24:14/ Rom 10:9/ Rom 15:9/ 1 John 1:9/ 1 Joohn 4:15/ 2 John 1:7) which is translated to read:-

(1a) to say the same thing as another, i.e. to agree with, assent

(2) exomologeō (You can find in Rom 4:11/ Phl 2:11/ James 5:16)which is translated to read:-

(2a) to confess (say/declare) acknowledge openly and joyfully, to one's honour: to celebrate, give praise to

Therefore to 'Confess' is nothing more then to say GOD's word (homologeō/ say the same & in line with GOD's word)that i am eternally forgiven & HIS (Jesus) gift of righteousness is upon me


(A) Now, what does Scriptures says about Jesus's work on the Cross:-

Hebrews 10:12
12But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,
​

Do you know that we once owed God a huge debt? No, it was not a money debt, it was a sin debt. We owed God a sin debt which we could never pay. But God so loved us that He came up with a plan to pay the debt — He gave us His Son to die on the cross for our sins. Jesus was without sin. So when He went to the cross as punishment for our sins, He paid for us a debt He did not owe.

My friend, the reality is that our sin debt has been more than paid in full. In fact, Jesus overpaid it! Jesus’ sacrifice was an overpayment because it was not just a good man, revered for his saintly qualities and good character, who died for us. It was the Son of the living God, the Creator of the universe, the perfect Man, who died for us!

Because Jesus is God, His sacrifice is greater than the sacrifices of all good men — past, present and future — put together. His sacrifice avails for all who lived in the past, all who are currently alive and all who will live in the future. And His one sacrifice forever took away all our sins.

Jesus’ sacrifice was also an overpayment because His blood is of far more value to God than the blood of bulls and goats used in the past to atone for the sins of the Israelites. His blood is the blood of God Himself, not of animals. Because His blood is eternal, His blood cleanses us forever, so we have eternal forgiveness!

My friend, the next time you are mindful of a bad deed, remember that Jesus, your sacrifice for sins, not only paid 100 per cent for your sin, but His sacrifice was also an overpayment. You can therefore truly and completely rest in the presence of God, knowing that He is fully satisfied and completely at rest concerning you. He is not going to find some sin you had committed that Jesus’ blood failed to cover.

Beloved, God can righteously give you His blessings and you can expect to receive them because Jesus overpaid your debt!

(B) There'll be advocates disputing the above & question on the current & future state of the believer yes?

Ephesians 1:6
6… He [God] made us accepted in the Beloved.
​

Studies have shown that in the heart of every child is a cry for his father’s approval. Something happens when a father says to his boy, “Daddy is so proud of you.” Or when a father says to his girl, “You will always be Daddy’s favorite girl.”

You can catch such a similar special moment in the Bible when God the Father displayed His approval of His Son — “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3:17) The Bible shows us that Jesus’ ministry began with the approval of the Father, even before He had performed any miracle.

Now, you may think that God would naturally say that of Jesus, but not of us. My friend, the truth is that Jesus came for us and as us. He died for us and as us. He received the approval of the Father for us and as us. He came as our representative. And if that is not enough, God tells us in His Word that we are “accepted in the Beloved”!

Why did God specifically say “accepted in the Beloved” and not simply “accepted in Christ”? I believe that it is because He is calling to our remembrance what had happened at the Jordan river where He said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” God wants us to know that we are His beloved and that He is well pleased with us.

God sees us as His beloved because He has made us accepted in the Beloved. He wants us to wake up every day knowing that we are His beloved, unconditionally loved and wholly approved.

The more we know how much we are loved and treasured by God, the more we can expect good things to happen in our lives. We can expect to be healthy and whole. When we realize that we are the objects of God’s love, instead of becoming easily frightened or threatened by anything or anyone, we become confident that we will win every fight of life.

That, my friend, is how your heavenly Father wants you to live. So live life today confident that you are God’s beloved! Don't ever let any Devil/ Preacher or "Friend" tell you otherwise regardless of your short comings

(C) There'll be those whom might question about actions/sins of the believer in action that are still in action then how & what are one suppose to do about it?

Romans 8:26
26Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
​

The Holy Spirit is not inside you to point out your faults or nag at you when you do wrong. God’s Word tells us that He is inside us to help us in our weaknesses. In areas where we are without strength, He is there to help us. When we don’t know what to pray, “the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered”.

Now, don’t read the verse and say, “Well, I don’t know what I should pray for, and since the Holy Spirit makes intercession for me, I will leave the praying to Him.”

If the Holy Spirit, without our participation, makes intercession for us, then every Christian would be living victorious lives automatically! But we know that there are many Christians who don’t seem to be walking in the fullness of God’s blessings. So obviously, Romans 8:26 is not saying that. What is it saying then?

In the first part of the verse, the word “helps” is sunantilambanomai in the original Greek text. It means “to take hold together against”. Now, “together” means that our participation is required. In other words, the Holy Spirit sunantilambanomai or takes hold together with us against the problem.

So if you just sit back and don’t take hold of the problem, the Holy Spirit has nothing to “take hold of” with you. If you don’t pray, He has nothing to pray. If you keep quiet, then even if He wants to pray through you, He can’t. But when you release your prayer in tongues, you are actually allowing Him to pray through you. And He will take hold together with you against the problem, and pray the perfect prayer through you because “He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God”. (Romans 8:27)

And you can be confident that when you ask anything according to the will of God, He hears you. And if you know that He hears you, whatever you ask, you know that you have the petitions that you have asked of Him! (1 John 5:14–15)

(D) Oh then how about us the believers Consciousness of the bad thought/ actions (sins) that we are commiting on a daily basis?

1 John 2:2

2And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.​

​

In the movie, Raiders Of The Lost Ark, the people who tried to look inside the ark were struck dead. What was inside the ark that brought judgment to those who looked into it?

The Bible tells us that the ark held the two tablets of the Ten Commandments, the pot of manna and Aaron’s rod. (Hebrews 9:4) These items were tokens of man’s rebellion. The two tablets of the Ten Commandments represented man’s rejection of God’s standards. The manna represented man’s rejection of God’s provision, and Aaron’s rod, man’s rejection of God’s appointed priesthood.​

God did not want to look at these tokens of rebellion. He wanted to be merciful to His people, so He instructed them to place the items in the ark and to cover the ark with its mercy seat, which is also the place where the blood of the animal sacrifices was sprinkled.​

Once a year on the Day of Atonement, the high priest would enter the Holy of Holies to sprinkle on the mercy seat the blood of the animal that had been sacrificed. The two cherubim on the mercy seat stood as guardians of God’s righteousness and holiness.

Representing God’s eyes too, they looked at the blood on the mercy seat. As long as the blood was there, the entire nation of Israel was forgiven. God’s judgment passed over them and they were blessed for another year.(Leviticus 16)​

Today, the blood sprinkled on the mercy seat is not the blood of bulls and goats, but the precious, eternal blood of the Son of God! (Hebrews 9:12)Jesus is our “mercy seat” for “He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world”. The word “propitiation” in the original Greek text is the same word as “mercy seat”.(Romans 3:25, Hebrews 9:5)​

Beloved, God does not see your sins and count them against you because He sees His Son’s blood. He sees His Son’s perfect work that has more than satisfied Him. God does not want you to see your sins either. He does not want you to look inside the ark by focusing on your sins. He wants you to focus on Christ and His finished work!​

(E) Wow, bold statements many might claimed, however there'll be many asking, " is it true that just as Jesus is now before daddy GOD, i am also'?

2 Corinthians 5:21

21For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


​

When an Israelite brings an animal as his sin offering, he lays his hand on it before killing it. (Leviticus 4:1–4) By laying his hand on the sin offering, his sins are transferred to the innocent animal. The animal dies for his sins and he goes free.

In contrast, during the burnt offering, when the Israelite lays his hand on the animal (Leviticus 1:3–4), the beauty, worthiness and acceptance of the unblemished animal are transferred to him. God accepts the perfection of the animal sacrifice on his behalf to make atonement for him. Because God accepts the unblemished burnt offering, the offerer now has right standing before God.​

Do you know that the two offerings speak of Jesus’ one offering of Himself when He hung on the cross? He is both our sin offering and burnt offering — “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us [as our sin offering], that we might become the righteousness of God in Him [as our burnt offering]”. The moment you put your faith in Him, just by His one sacrifice, your sins were transferred to Him, and His righteousness was transferred to you. That is the grace of God toward you!​

As our sin offering, He offered Himself once and for all. (Romans 6:10) The sin offering was never a daily offering because God does not want His people to be sin-conscious. However, the burnt offering was both a morning and evening sacrifice (2 Chronicles 13:11) because God wants His people to be righteousness-conscious.​

Beloved, God wants you to lay claim daily to Jesus as your burnt offering and say, “Father, I thank You that Jesus is my burnt offering. All that Jesus is before You — His righteousness, excellence, beauty and perfection — has been transferred to me. Jesus has Your unclouded favor, so I enjoy Your unclouded favor in my life. Jesus is the righteousness of God, so I am the righteousness of God in Christ. As He is before You, so am I.” ​

Because Jesus became your burnt offering, what He is to the Father today, you are! That is what it means to be in Christ.​

 

[judechild]

Our Father Who art in Heaven...

Gideon Army has presented quite a bit that I agree with, but I hold that he is too cautious; that he is not nearly radical enough.

In paragraphs seven through eleven (not counting the sections before the letter “A”), Gideon rightly connects Ephesians 1:6: “He made us accepted in the Beloved,” to the Baptism in the Jordan’s “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” But he stops short; saying that we are beloved because of a legalistic transaction which he describes in paragraphs thirty through thirty-three. God is the Judge, it is true; but God is also the Father. The purpose of this post is to show that the forgiveness of our sins is primarily an action of the Family of God, in addition to being a function of Eternal courtroom drama.

It is necessary to say something about Baptism. Jesus, of course, did not only come to –as Gideon says: “[pay] for us a debt He did not owe;” He came to draw us into God’s Family. Baptism and the Cross of Christ are intrinsically united, as we see in Jesus’ assertions such as “There is a baptism with which I must be baptized,” (Luke 12:50). In this passage, Jesus is referring to His death; St. Paul observes the same as he tells us that Baptism is the new circumcision which brings a person into the very death and life of Christ: “In Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand… you were buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God” (Col 2:11-12). This recalls the reader to what the circumcision was: the effective sign of God’s relationship to the person. It is “effective” because the sign itself carried blessings or curses: “Throughout the ages, every male among you, when he is eight days old, shall be circumcised… if a male is uncircumcised… such a one shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant” (Genesis 17:13-14).

This shows that we enter into the mysteries of Christ’s dying and rising through Baptism to become the People of God. This is not, however, some metaphor; it is a reality. In Baptism, God in a sense adopts us through the working of the Holy Spirit (v. 16) into the Person of Christ Himself. Thus, we do hear the words of the Father “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased” (v. 17). In our own Baptism, we truly experience what occurred at Christ’s Baptism, because we are brought into Christ through adoption. In this way, it is true when Gideon says that “He is calling to our remembrance what had happened at the Jordan river.” However, he does not go far enough. Gideon is content to: “wake up every day knowing that we are His beloved, unconditionally loved and wholly approved.” I assert no less then that God is drawing us into the very life of the Trinity, which is no less than the total transformation of the human person; as Christ took our nature, so now He calls us to unite ourselves to God in such a way that we become identified in the Person of the Son: “and we are in the One who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ” (1 John 5:20; see also Acts 9:4). He is not calling us simply to ignore the fact that we are sinners; He is calling us to total Metanoia: “Repent, and believe in the Gospel” (Mark 1:15).

Our relationship to God is one of a daughter or son to his or her Father; but since it is a family relationship, it is much more dynamic than the legal model presented by Gideon. Relationships can be strengthened or weakened, but they are never static. Jesus told the Parable of the Prodigal Son to emphasize this relationship. After all, the younger son was in his father’s house (Luke 15:11-12), then left (v.13), then he returned and confessed his wrong: “’Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you; I no longer deserve to be called your son’” (v. 21), and the Father returned him to a state of sonship: “’your brother was dead and has come to life again’” (v.32). This shows that our relationship can be lost, indeed many do lose it; if the prodigal had died in outside of the house, he then would have died without the status of son to the father. God does judge us, but He does so from the chamber that is simultaneously the courtroom, and the family room.

That is why Jesus gave to His Church sacramental Confession. It has been observed by another poster that Jesus’ ordaining the Apostles to forgive sins does not necessarily mean that all people must receive forgiveness in this way. This is true; it is just like God ordaining human procreation in a certain way, but there is still the possibility that God can work outside of it (i.e. Samson, and Jesus); yet we would still say that the sexual act is necessary for human procreation. The sacramental grace received from the Sacrament of Confession, however, comes from the relationship of Christ to His Church. In Ephesians, St. Paul writes: “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her… ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.’ This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church” (5:25, 31-32). St. Paul has here compared Christ and the Church to spouses who “shall become one flesh.” It is no wonder, then, that Christ would ordain the forgiveness of sins to come through His Body, the Church. This returns us to the question posed in my last post: Does the Body of Christ have the power to forgive sins, or not?

The objection has been raised by the same poster that the Book of Hebrews says “let us confidently approach the throne of grace to receive mercy and to find grace for timely help” (4:16); this he interprets to mean that God means for us to confess privately to Him, without mediation on the part of the priest. I do not have the same view of the passage. In the Sacraments, we do “confidently approach the throne of grace.” A friend of mine once described the Sacraments to me in something he calls the “bubble effect.” “Two-thousand years ago,” he says. “Jesus came to us; Heaven touched earth inside of time. After the Ascension of Christ, and ever since then, when we celebrate the Sacraments it’s as if a bubble encases you and the priest/minister of the Sacrament, and you are lifted to Heaven; Earth touches Heaven.” In Confession, this means that it is not the priest that extends the forgiveness of sins – apart from Christ. He extends absolution “Through the ministry of the Church… in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” The priest has no power on his own, just like the angel in Revelation 10 had no authority outside of God Himself; yet when he in verses 5-6 “raised his right hand to heaven / and swore by the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them, ‘There shall be no more delay,’” the seventh trumpet was blown only a few verses later. And so mediation is no culprit to the Cross of Christ

I believe it is prudent to point out a problem with Gideon’s use of a lexicon. At the beginning of his post (before the letter A), he asserts that the word “homologeō” means only “to say the same thing as another, i.e. to agree with, assent.” I have located what I believe to be his source of information: (confess - Online Bible Study Tools) and would like to point out that he forgot to add that it also means “to confess, i.e. to admit or declare one's self guilty of what one is accused of.” This does call into triviality his assertion that “Therefore to 'Confess' is nothing more then to say GOD's word … that i am eternally forgiven & HIS (Jesus) gift of righteousness is upon me.” Indeed, to confess can mean to admit fault; this is something done quite frequently by sinners like me. Gideon also expounds in section E about the role of Christ as both sin offering and peace offering; and of course He is. But this one offering is communicated to us through the Sacraments; these offerings find their fulfillment through Christ in the Sacraments. Gideon notes that the burnt offering was offered everyday (Leviticus 6:1-6), while the sin offering was as needed: “should he later on learn of the sin he committed, he shall bring an unblemished she-goat as the offering for his sin” (Leviticus 4:28). Thanks to the marvels of things like time-zones, at this moment and at every hour, in every Catholic Church, the one true Sacrifice is presented before God and the people “for from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering…” (Malachi 1:11). We no longer sacrifice; but we do present the true Sacrifice that was offered “once for all.” In Confession, however, we participate in it as often as need be (I must many more times than most). My little brother came to me once and told me he needed to go to Confession; I asked him why, and he responded “because I have a dirty soul!” To this day, I have never heard a better reason from theologian, priest, or Pope as to why a person would need to go to Confession; this is all a part of confidently approaching the throne of Grace.

Gideon says “God does not want you to see your sins either,” but St. Paul sees his sin and acknowledges it: “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinner. Of these I am the foremost” (1 Timothy 1:15). St. James tells his flock to “confess your sins to one another,” and yet he is talking to Christians, not to pagans; he does not tell them to hide their sins and pretend that they don’t sin. Gideon says “You can therefore truly and completely rest in the presence of God, knowing that He is fully satisfied and completely at rest concerning you.” This would be fine if our salvation was merely a matter of legal transaction – and I’m certainly not saying that a person should doubt the fact that God loves them forever – but Jesus’ perfect Sacrifice does not mean that we cannot lose our life of grace. In Matthew 18:23-35, Jesus describes a servant (let’s call him “Judechild”) who owed his master “a huge amount” (v. 24), but then Judechild begged for forgiveness (v.26), and the master “let [Judechild] go and forgave him the loan. But then, our imaginary person “found one of his fellow servants who owed him a much smaller amount” (v. 28) and he demanded him to “’Pay back what you owe’” (v. 28). He did not listen to the pleas of mercy from his fellow servant, and so had him thrown in jail (v. 30). The master found out, and didn’t like it; so he took back the mercy he had extended to Judechild, and threw him into the prison after all. “So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart” (v. 35).

Gideon Army has said much that I find no fault in; but I believe he is too timid. We sin because we are weak, but Jesus gave us Sacramental Grace in order that we may be able to overcome it; by the complete transformation of ourselves. Our relationship to God is the dynamic one of a child to a Father; and we must come to the family-room to receive mercy.

 

[gideon army]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 John 1:9 and true confession of sins[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When Christians sin today, their normal response is to confess their sin to the Lord and ask for forgiveness. Then, they hope that God will forgive them (perhaps after performing some sort of penance), not punish them and fellowship with them again.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The common belief is that when you are born again, only your past sins are forgiven. From then on, whenever you sin, you must ask for forgiveness in order to be forgiven and to be right with God again.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Because of this, new Christians are quickly taught to remember and use this verse:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 John 1:9 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [/FONT]
​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But is that how this verse is to be understood?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Rightly dividing the Word[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2 Timothy 2:15 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]While every letter and punctuation in the Bible is God-breathed, not every verse is written to the church. For example, God's instructions to Moses regarding animal sacrifices in Leviticus do not apply to the church. While we can still read them and learn plenty about types and shadows of Jesus Christ as the Lamb of God and the final sacrifice, the rules are not given to us but to the Jews who were under Law then.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus himself rightly divided the Word:[/FONT]

Matthew 5:38,39
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

The teaching of "an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth" is found in Exodus 21:24, Leviticus 24:20 and Deuteronomy 19:21. But since Jesus came to establish a better covenant of grace, He taught His people to "turn the other cheek". Today, the church practises "turning the other cheek", not "an eye for an eye", although the latter is instructed in the Bible.


The simplest way to rightly divide the Word is to "filter" whatever we read -- before the cross -- through the cross. In other words, interpret a verse in light of what Jesus Christ has accomplished on the cross. We should not read and interpret scriptures as though Jesus did not die and rise again!


So, for a start, we should ask ourselves if 1 John 1:9 is addressing Christians.


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A simple test


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If you have a PC or Mac Bible, do a word search for "forgive", "forgiving", "forgiven", "forgave" and "forgiveness" in the New Testament. Go through the list of verses that your computer generates. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]You will find that after the cross, it is always "forgiven", "forgave" and "have forgiveness"! Before the cross, it is "forgive or you will not be forgiven" or "forgive to be forgiven". There is a world of difference, and Jesus' death and resurrection made that difference! [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Here is one example:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Before the cross...[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Mark 11:25[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]After the cross...[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Colossians 3:13 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.[/FONT]

​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Have you ever wondered why Abraham's mistakes are not mentioned in Hebrews (a book placed after the cross)? It is as though the Holy Spirit, when portraying Abraham as a hero of faith, "forgot" about his failures. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But the Holy Spirit did so rightly, being faithful to the risen Christ, who wiped out our sins and bought us forgiveness with His blood. In fact, the Bible says that because of Jesus' sacrifice, God does not even remember or keep an account of our sins (2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 4:8, Hebrews 8:12 and Hebrews 10:17). It is no wonder Abraham's mistakes are not recorded.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]All or nothing[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Many Christians think of sin as murder, adultery, homosexualism, cheating -- the "big" sins. But God says that anything that is not of faith is sin.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Romans 14:23 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So, doing something out of worry or fear is a sin. Undressing a woman in your mind is also a sin. Coveting your neighbour's new car is also a sin. There is no end to it.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Since this is the truth of the matter, we must also ask ourselves if it is possible to confess every sin we commit. The answer is obvious. Many a times, we don't even know it when we sin.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Some might argue that we only confess the sins that we are aware of, but that is simply picking and choosing, and insulting the perfect holiness of God by assuming that God will close an eye on the other sins.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Let's face it, if we want to go down the road of confessing sins to be forgiven and to be right with God, we won't make it. It will take all day and we will still not be totally "clean".[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Once for all[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]One reason I believe 1 John 1:9 is not directed at Christians but non-believers is because it says "cleanse us from all unrighteousness". That can only happen once in the life of the believer -- when he was born again. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So, it does not make sense for Christians, who are already righteous by the blood of Christ, to again be "cleansed from all unrighteousness", and over and over again, every time they sin. The word "all" used, simply means all.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The moment we believed and confessed Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, we received God's forgiveness for all our sins -- past, present and future![/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Colossians 2:13[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus' sacrifice was "once for all". In Hebrews 10, Paul is saying that the blood of bulls and goats could not take away the offerer's sins "once for all", which is why the sinner had to offer animal sacrifices year after year. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then, he goes on to say how it is different with the blood of Jesus -- that His blood cleanses "once for all", so that we don't have to continuously offer sacrifices (or confessions) to be cleansed, over and over again.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hebrews 10:2 (NIV)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hebrews 10:10 (NIV)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. [/FONT]
​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So, if we have to "offer" confessions day after day to stay clean, we are actually regressing into the system of animal sacrifices and insulting the blood of Christ. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Worse, we would be implying that the Jews, who were under an inferior covenant, had it better than us, who are under a superior covenant, since the blood of bulls and goats they offered was good for an entire year, whereas the blood of Jesus we have is good only until the next time we sin![/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Past, present and future sins[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Many Christians think that only their past sins were forgiven when they were saved. But this is illogical. Jesus was crucified some 2,000 years ago, so all their sins had to be future then![/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Think about it: Suppose John was born again in 1980, Mary in 1990 and Peter in 2000. If only their past sins were forgiven, then it would mean that Christ left out John's sins after 1980 but somehow remembered to bear Mary's sins after 1980, yet forgot to bear her sins after 1990, but bore Peter's sins after 1990, yet only up to 2000. Can you see how ridiculous it sounds, and we are only talking about three people.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When Jesus hung on the cross, He bore every sin of every man who would ever live. His was the perfect sacrifice for sins in every sense of the word, not a partial, limited one. And because He bore every single one of our sins, we always have forgiveness. We are not trying to get it, we have it![/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Romans 5:18 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ephesians 4:32 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Colossians 2:13 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Colossians 3:13 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 John 1:7 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 John 2:12 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Some might think that such a doctrine of total forgiveness of sins will cause the church to sin more and love God less. But Jesus said that those who know that they have been forgiven much will love much, and those who think they have been forgiven little will love little. Also, how much we are able to forgive others depends on how much we believe we have been forgiven by God.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Luke 7:47 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Colossians 3:13 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.[/FONT]
​

[/FONT]

 

[gideon army]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]No mention by Paul[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Paul wrote about two-thirds of the New Testament. Now, if confession of sin in order to be forgiven and to be right with God is so important to the believer, then Paul has done us a great injustice by not mentioning it in his letters to us, the church. But you will never find Paul teaching that to the church.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Confession of sin to be made righteousness appears only once in 1 John 1:9, and it is addressed to non-believers.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Who is it for?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The preceding verse itself gives the answer. Let the Bible interpret the Bible.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 John 1:8[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Will a Christian say that he has "no sin"? In the first place, he became a Christian by acknowledging before God that he was a sinner in need of the Saviour. Furthermore, Christians today are so sin-conscious, rather than righteous-conscious. In fact, some Christians still call themselves, as well as fellow Christians, sinners! [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Obviously, the verse is not for Christians, but for non-believers who say that they have no sin. John tells such people that they are deceiving themselves. But he also assures them that if they acknowledge that they are sinners, then there is a way out for them -- if they confess their sinfulness to God, God is faithful and just to Christ and His finished work, and will forgive them and wash away all their sins, and make them righteous forever by the blood of His Son.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Another clue as to why this verse is not for the Christian is the phrase, "the truth is not in us". Christians have the Spirit of truth, which is the Holy Spirit, in them. Non-believers don't.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]John 14:17 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you [after Pentecost].[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]What do we do then, when we sin?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Greek word for "confess" in 1 John 1:9 is "homologeo". According to Strong's Greek Lexicon, it means "to say the same thing as another, that is, to agree with, assent".[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]What are we to say, and in agreement with who?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I believe that we are to agree with God and say the same thing God that says about our sins. That is true confession of sin.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So, what does God say about our sins?[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]• He has removed all of them -- past, present and future sins (Colossians 2:13, 1 John 1:7).[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]• He does not keep an account of them nor does He remember them (2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 4:8, Hebrews 8:12 and Hebrews 10:17).[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]• We already have forgiveness (Ephesians 4:32, Colossians 2:13, Colossians 3:13, 1 John 2:12).[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Here is a sample of how and what I confess when I sin:[/FONT]

Daddy GOD, I thank you for giving me Christ as my True Lamb of GOD in whom you have forgiven me of all my sins (those that I know off plus those that I do not know off) in Thought/Speech /Actions.

I Thank you for giving me Christ’s righteousness (which I have none & count all my good works as DUNG) & sees me in the perfection of your only Beloved begotten Son, Christ Jesus finished work in me even though I am far from being altogether in Christ’s image, however your word says that the more I behold HIM, I will be transformed Into His image hence I am asking you to show me more of Christ in every areas of my life-Amen


It is paramount for the believer to know the Value of the ONE whom shed His Blood & gave all Believers equal Right Perfect standing before GOD.

Why?

Proverbs 10:6
Blessings [are] on the head of the righteous, But violence covers the mouth of the wicked.

There Is No Spot In You- Believers in Christ

Song Of Solomon 4:7
​

7You are all fair, my love, and there is no spot in you.

​

Jesus tells us His bride, “You are all fair, My love, and there is no spot in you.” But our reply to Him tends to be, “Me? All fair and no spot? You don’t know me, Lord!”

Do you really think that God doesn’t know you?​

God sees reality like no one else sees it. He sees the perfection of His Son’s finished work in your life. By one offering of Himself at the cross, Jesus has perfected you forever! (Hebrews 10:14) You have been made the righteousness of God in Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:21) And you will never find any spot in this righteousness that Jesus died to give you.​

So God wants you to see yourself righteous — all fair and spotless in Christ. Every day, be conscious of your righteousness in Christ. Say, “I am the righteousness of God in Christ. There is no spot in me whom He has perfected with His blood.” When you do that, you are honoring Jesus and His finished work.​

If you are conscious of your sins, then you are not honoring the work of Christ. You may think that you are being humble or holy by being sin-conscious. But do you know that the Bible calls sin-consciousness an “evil conscience”?​

Hebrews 10:21–22 tells us that since we have Jesus as our High Priest, “let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience”. What does the writer of Hebrews mean by “an evil conscience”? If you read the beginning of the same chapter, you will find that he is talking about a “consciousness of sins”. (Hebrews 10:2) Paul calls it a “conscience seared with a hot iron”. 1 Timothy 4:2) The Greek word for “seared” here is kauteriazo, and it means to carry about with you a perpetual consciousness of sin.​

So don’t carry with you an evil or seared conscience. Your lifetime of sins has already been punished fully in the body of Jesus at the cross. Be conscious, instead, of your perfection and righteousness in Christ. Because of what Jesus has done for you, you can boldly declare, “I am all fair. There is no spot in me!” Hallelujah Praise Jesus

​

 

[judechild]

Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.


As this is my last addition to this debate, I’d like to once again thank the board, the moderator staff, and Gideon Army for making this exchange possible. Hopefully, as we wind down, it has been beneficial to everyone involved and observing.

Jesus told us that the relationship He wishes to share with his disciples is one of a family bond (ie, Matthew 21: 28-32). Ultimately, this is a beautiful, perfect unity: “…you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in Me and I in you” (John 14:20). In order to accomplish this, the Father sent the Son, the Word made flesh, on a mission. Jesus’ mission was double-fold: To bring the world the forgiveness of sins: “in Him we have redemption by His blood, the forgiveness of transgressions” (Ephesians 1:7), and to return us to a true relationship with God: “to those who did accept Him He gave power to become children of God” (John 1:12). Through Him, our Savior, the Grace of salvation is available to all people. Amen.

However, Christ did not come to restore us half-way; He came to totally change us from one thing to another. This life of grace in the soul, beginning from Baptism (as explored in post #4, paragraph 4) is a dynamic relationship that can be deepened and fruitfully explored, or it can be harmed or lost by sin. Christ gives us many parables that demonstrate this latter point. In one, Jesus described the disciples and Himself: “I am he true vine, and my Father is the vine grower. / He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit… remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me” (John 15: 1-2, 4). Here, we see persons who are united with Christ (they are Christians, because Christianity is union with Christ; Col:3:4), and yet because of their inaction, they are cut off from Christ by the Vine-Grower.
In Galatians 5:2, St. Paul insists that if a Christian becomes circumcised “Christ will be of no benefit to you.” Verse four, in some translations, says “you are severed from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.” The part I’d like to point out here is that I have never (to my knowledge) possessed a third arm. Since I have never had this limb, it would be entirely improper to speak of it being “severed” from me. No one can be justified through the law; everyone knows that… but people may be severed from their Source.

Returning to the words of Christ, He also maintains the story I referred to in post 4: of the Unforgiving Servant (Matthew 18:23-35). The servant had had his debt entirely forgiven (v. 27), but because of his refusal to forgive another (v. 30), his master recanted his mercy (v. 34); Jesus ends by saying that God will treat us likewise (v. 35). Gideon appears to believe this parable to be outdated, since Jesus has risen: “You will find that after the cross, it is always ‘forgiven’, ‘forgave’ and ‘have forgiveness’! Before the cross, it is ‘forgive or you will not be forgiven’ or ‘forgive to be forgiven’” (post 5), but does Gideon then believe that Jesus’ Sacrifice was not necessary for the forgiveness of sins? The reason I raise this, is because the Master forgave the servant the debt. If the master represents God, and the servant, us, and yet the Cross now outdates this parable, then was the forgiveness of sins possible for us before the Cross? This will be returned to later.

I was surprised at Gideon’s last posts. I was surprised because his only two direct rebuttals against Sacramental Confession (his objection about the Greek word itself was dealt with in the previous post) came not from Scripture, but from philosophy. In paragraph 14, Gideon states that it is not possible to remember every sin. This is true, but irrelevant; the Catholic Church does not teach that every sin must be confessed in order for forgiveness to be received. He, of course, is aware of this, and so in paragraph 15 says that anything other than a full list would be “insulting the perfect holiness of God by assuming that God will close an eye on the other sins.” But that is only so if you believe that every one of your sins must be confessed in order for the sacrament to “work”; again, the Catholic Church does not. The sacraments do not rely on our own merit; they are actions of God that give Grace to us so long as they are not impeded in some way (ie. a person who receives the Eucharist, but does not believe will not receive sacramental grace from it; 1 Cor. 11:29). A person who confesses his sins without withholding is not impeding the Sacrament; only if he refuses to confess a sin that he should is an impediment formed. I would challenge Gideon to come up with any doctrinal statement that says all sins must be confessed. Now, again, St. James tells us to “confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed” (5:16); this being within the context of the ministry of the priest, we have it on good authority to do so.

The second philosophical objection Gideon raises causes deeper problems for him than it does for me. This is because of Gideon’s legalistic understanding of the forgiveness of sins. In paragraphs 24-26, Gideon calls confession of sins “illogical” because “Jesus was crucified 2000 years ago, so all their sins had to be in the future then!” He goes on in the next paragraph: “Think about it: Suppose John was born again in 1980, Mary in 1990 and Peter in 2000. If only their past sins were forgiven, then it would mean that Christ left out John's sins after 1980 but somehow remembered to bear Mary's sins after 1980, yet forgot to bear her sins after 1990, but bore Peter's sins after 1990, yet only up to 2000. Can you see how ridiculous it sounds, and we are only talking about three people.” It certainly is ridiculous if Christ did nothing more than make a large monetary transaction.

This objection becomes difficult for Gideon’s own view. Taken alone, it appears that Gideon’s writing here proclaims an idea that since Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient for all sins, all people have been saved. Previously, however, Gideon makes it clear that there is a point in which sins are forgiven: “The moment you put your faith in Him, just by His one sacrifice, your sins were transferred to Him, and His righteousness was transferred to you” (#3, para. 32). But, as he pointed out, anything against faith (which includes doubt) is a sin: Rom. 14:23. In that case, if – in Gideon’s thinking – John was born again in 1980, Mary was never born again, but Peter was in 2000, why does Christ remember to bare John’s sins in 1980, forget to bear Mary’s in 1990, but then remember to bear Peter’s in 2000? If Christ simply “overpaid our debt,” that would certainly include all sins of all people despite their apparent lack of faith. The legalistic model that Gideon provides has problems with his own objection; God is indeed a just judge, but Christ did not reveal God as “God the Judge, God the Jury, and God the Executioner…”

… He revealed Him as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit; a family. Confession brings this reality of God as a family to a climax. Christ told us “whoever does not accept the Kingdom of God like a child will not enter it” (Luke 18:17). What is more childlike then the Confession of a child to his parents of some disobedience? Gideon believes the Grace of the forgiveness of all sins is actualized at a possibly indefinable point; we believe the grace for the forgiveness of all sins we have hitherto participated in (the only ones we are responsible for) is actualized in this Sacrament. The young man in Luke 15 confessed his sin to his father and was forgiven; how appropriate that a famous painting of this scene hangs outside the Confessionals of many churches. Again, Jesus gave His apostles, and by extension, their successors, the power to forgive sins “Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them” (John 21:23 – See post #2, para 7).

I am a sinner, and I confess my sins. 1 John 9 agrees that I should do so. Gideon spent a considerable amount of time attempting to explain why he believes it does not apply to the life of the Christian; I will attempt to show that it does.
In quoting 1 John 1:8 (“If we say, ‘we are without sin,’ we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.&#8217, Gideon says: ‘Obviously, the verse is not for Christians, but for non-believers who say that they have no sin.’ I would point out, though, that if the person being spoken of were a non-believer, the fact “the truth is not in [them]” would not depend on their saying they have no sin. In other words, the un-believer could legitimately say “I have sin,” and still not have the Truth (Jesus) in them. On the other hand, John makes it clear that “if we say, ‘we have not sinned,’ we make him a liar,” which itself would constitute a sin, which damages our relationship with our Father so that “his word is not in us.”

In addition, John associates with the letter’s recipients by saying “we” in both verse 8 and 9; in verse 2:1, he calls them “my children.” There is no place in the Bible where an epistle’s author claims unbelievers as his children (see, for example 1 Cor. 4:14-15, and Philem. 10); they are always believers.
Perhaps Gideon believes it is only these two verses that speak of unbelievers, but I doubt that such an easy distinction could be made if we were the letter’s original recipients. After all, the New Testament was written in all caps, with no spaces between word and without any chapter-and-verse separations. In addition, all the Scriptures would have been read aloud to the Christian community (this was for a few reasons; 1 – not many could read; 2 – the logistical difficulties given above would make reading silently very difficult to do); unbelievers would not have been present because at the time it was very important to make sure no one in the congregation was a Roman spy. On a side note, it was clearly the expectation of the author of Revelation that his Book be read aloud: “blessed is the one who reads aloud… this prophetic message.”

Verses eight and nine clearly do refer to Christians. It has already been shown that the life of Grace may be lost, but Christ does not leave us as orphans. He knows of our downfalls, and so gave us his co-workers (see Luke 10:2) to extend His Mercy to us all.

 

[judechild]

To conclude, God our Father gave us a Savior (Luke 1:31). This Savior established His Church with ministers of His forgiveness (Matthew 18:18). This Church is His body (Ephesians 5:23) which He is united to with the intimacy of husband and wife; “…Christ loved the Church and handed Himself over for her / to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word” (Ephesians 5:25-26). Gideon claims for himself the Song of Songs 4:7: “you are all-beautiful, my beloved, and there is no blemish in you.” Gideon is quick to point out that “not every verse is written to the church,” but in this case, perhaps, he misses that this verse does not speak of him, or of me, or of the Pope, but truely of the Church; “that He might present to Himself the Church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish” (Ephesians 5:27). It is Christ who says to the Church “you are all-beautiful, my beloved, and there is no blemish in you.”

That is why I have said since the onset of this exchange that forgiveness can be found in the Sacrament of Confession. The Church is the Bride of Christ, and when the “two become one flesh” the Church becomes the ultimate sign of her Beloved. The forgiveness of sins is to be found in the Body of Christ, and nowhere else.
Since we are members of this body (1 Cor. 12:12), we will one day share fully in this glory… and yes, Christ will on that day say of us what He says to the Church; but we are not there yet. If we were, there would be no talk of being in Heaven one day; Heaven would already be here. If anyone believes Heaven is already here fully revealed, I’m sorry, but I will have to say I am very disappointed in Heaven. We do have touches of Heaven, though, which we find given to us in the Sacraments.

It seems to me that some Christians like to make-believe that they are angels. By that, I mean that spirituality to them has nothing to do with the body or physical space in general; they behave as though they should be spirits without bodies. That is not the Catholic view. Jesus used physical things (mud, water, oil, a Cross) to give Grace while He was visibly here on Earth, and He continues to do so. Gideon says that the language of forgiveness has changed since the Cross “You will find that after the cross, it is always ‘forgiven’, ‘forgave’ and ‘have forgiveness’! Before the cross, it is ‘forgive or you will not be forgiven’ or ‘forgive to be forgiven,’” and it is true that nothing will ever be the same. But Gideon forgot at least one verse:

Before the Cross: “’Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven’” (Matthew 18:18).
After the Cross: “Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained” (John 20:23).

On the very day of the Resurrection (John 20:1, 20:19), the true Day of Atonement, Jesus connects His Apostles with the ministry of the forgiveness of sins, just as He had done before the Cross. The Grace is the same; it is only from Christ that we are made alive, but through the ministry of the His Body that it is actualized in our lives. These are spiritual realities through physical means.

And so I will end. I am sorry for my inadequacy in explaining these mysteries, but please do not let my shortcomings stop you from learning more from others on the subject; there are many more who have explained it far better than I. Acknowledging my failings, I will finish the same way as I began: “For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world. Amen.”