Formal Debate Peanut Gallery: The Bible Is Not the Inspired Word of God

[BL2KTN]

You never know, there could be someone down the road with novel thoughts...

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

You never know, there could be someone down the road with novel thoughts...

They would be free to open another thread or start another debate.

Anyway, it's still open.

 

[jgarden]

The Bible Is Not the Inspired Word of God

While the original manuscripts may have been the inspired Word of God, but these documents are bo longer available.

An examination of the translators notes at the beginning of different Bibles reveals that none claim that to be infallible translation and/or divinely inspired.

The purpose of the Bible is to felp us find God - although the translation itself may not be infallible or divinely inspired, the Holy Spirit will guide us in determining God's message.

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

The bible, however, does not bode well for its author's knowledge. Take for example its belief that the sky is a hard dome (raqia).

The term raqia is associated with the spreading out like a hammering of metal into a flat plate, not necessarily a bowl. I think that was added later to lend to the sky.

But I don't think it means the earth sky, I think it is a universal structure and it is perfectly flat.


The bible is not the first recording of "God" separating waters above from below by hammering out a metal plate. Are you familiar with The Opener?


How familiar are you with the cultural origins of the biblical story? We might find a good debate somewhere in there.

 

[BL2KTN]

While the original manuscripts may have been the inspired Word of God, but these documents are bo longer available.

Yes, a random game between two terrible teams in the NBA is better recorded than Yahweh's supposed message to the human race.

An examination of the translators notes at the beginning of different Bibles reveals that none claim that to be infallible translation and/or divinely inspired.

So all those atrocities Yahweh commands and all those thousands of errors... they're just translation mistakes.

Mmm... no.

The purpose of the Bible is to felp us find God - although the translation itself may not be infallible or divinely inspired, the Holy Spirit will guide us in determining God's message.

So although the texts are terribly, terribly flawed, to the point that the first ten chapters are more like a cartoon, if we choose to believe this thing, then a God Ghost will guide us in seeing what is right and what is wrong in the flawed text we first had to believe. I see. If that is the case, why didn't the God Ghost show people that about the firmament before astrology did?

 

[BL2KTN]

The term raqia is associated with the spreading out like a hammering of metal into a flat plate, not necessarily a bowl. I think that was added later to lend to the sky.

No. Raqia refers to a vault/arc shape. Your personal, uncited opinion about an ancient language is useless.
Strong's Hebrew: 7549. ???????? (raqia) -- an extended surface, expanse

But I don't think it means the earth sky, I think it is a universal structure and it is perfectly flat.

Can you help God spread out the skies
as hard as a cast metal mirror? -- Job 37:18

The bible is not the first recording of "God" separating waters above from below by hammering out a metal plate. Are you familiar with The Opener?

Older stories in the bible were highly influenced, and even evolved from, other more ancient myths. This is not surprising.

How familiar are you with the cultural origins of the biblical story? We might find a good debate somewhere in there.

Very.

 

[Usus Vox Tractus]

No. Raqia refers to a vault/arc shape. Your personal, uncited opinion about an ancient language is useless.
Strong's Hebrew: 7549. ???????? (raqia) -- an extended surface, expanse



Can you help God spread out the skies
as hard as a cast metal mirror? -- Job 37:18



Older stories in the bible were highly influenced, and even evolved from, other more ancient myths. This is not surprising.



Very.

Hebrew Word Meanings

The word raqiya comes from the root word raqa which can be found in several passages including Isaiah 40:19 - "The idol! a workman casts it, and a goldsmith overlays it with gold, and casts for it silver chains." The word "overlay" is the verb root raqa. Raqa is the process of hammering out a piece of gold or other metal into thin plates which was then applied to a carved or molten image. Numbers 16:39 reads "So Eleazar the priest took the bronze censers, which those who were burned had offered; and they were hammered out as a covering for the altar." Here, the phrase "were hammered out" is again the verb root raqa. The gold was hammered into thin sheets then laid over the surface of the alter. The word raqiya is the noun form of the verb raqa and is literally a "hammered out sheet".



Your source barely hints at a bowl like shape at the very last entry:

רָקִיעַ [SIZE=+1]noun masculine[/SIZE]Genesis 1:6 [SIZE=+1]extended surface[/SIZE], (solid) [SIZE=+1]expanse[/SIZE] (as if beaten out; compare Job 37:18); — absolute ׳ר Ezekiel 1:22 +, construct ׳רְ Genesis 1:14 +; — ᵐ5 [FONT=Gentium,Galatia SIL,SBL Greek,GFS Porson,Times New Roman]στερέωμα[/FONT], ᵑ9 firmamentum, compare Syriac below √above; —
[SIZE=+1]1[/SIZE] (flat) expanse (as if of ice, compare כְּעֵין הַקֶּרַ&#1495, as base, support (WklAltor. Forsch. iv. 347) Ezekiel 1:22,23,25(gloss ? compare Co Toy), Ezekiel 1:26 (supporting ׳י's throne). Hence (CoEzekiel 1:22)

2 [SIZE=+1]the vault of heaven[/SIZE], or 'firmament,' regarded by Hebrews as solid, and supporting 'waters' above it, Genesis 1:6,7 (3 t. in verse); Genesis 1:8 (called שָׁמַיַם; all P), Psalm 19:2 ("" הַשָּׁמַיַ&#1501, ׳זֹהַר הָר Daniel 12:3; also ׳ר הַשָּׁמִיִם Genesis 1:14,15,17, ׳הַשּׁ ׳עַלמְּֿנֵי ר Genesis 1:20 (all P). [SIZE=+1]**[/SIZE]רְקִיעַ עֻזּוֺ Psalm 150:1 (suffix reference to ׳&#1497.


And now for something older: http://www.egyptartsite.com/ptah

In the Book of the Dead we learn that Ptaah was a master architect, and responsible for building the framework of the universe. It was said that he created the great metal plate that was the floor of heaven and the roof of the sky. He also constructed the supports that held it up. Some creation legends say that by speaking the names of all things, Ptah caused them to be.

 

[BL2KTN]

Please read in bold "vault of heaven." Then please look up the word "vault."

And yes, the Book of the Dead reveals the same cosmology, though I would not suggest that you think of plates as necessarily flat. It is difficult to imagine that the ancient Egyptians or Hebrews looked at the sky and thought it was a flat surface. That would defy logic since the sky never appears flat to the human eye.

Either way, this has little to do with the flawed cosmology of the bible. A metallic firmament does not exist in they sky, regardless of its shape.

 

[NewCreation17]

Psalm 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2 Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

1 Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Having been filled with the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ and working and witnessing gifts of the Holy Spirit of GOD, i can say that GOD's word is truth, and GOD Himself has made sure His word endures forever. With this said, faith is something that comes from GOD, and Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. It sounds to me like you need a spiritual experience.
Seek GOD with all your heart and he will reveal Himself to you, as He did me and many others. I can tell you of a truth, the KJV bible i have is the word of GOD and GOD alone has made sure His word has endured. The Spirit also bears witness of the truth... You really need the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

If you want to know how to be filled with the Holy Spirit and experience a relationship with GOD that only his Children have in Christ Jesus simply read this.

John 7:38-39 "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

Ask GOD to fill you, seek Him with all your heart, and be willing to let go of all sin.

Luke 11:9-13
And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?




Not only is it a personal spiritual experience to be filled, GOD will give you gifts of the Spirit for the perfecting of the saints and His good pleasure. gifts of tongues, prophecy, healing, miracles, word of wisdom, word of knowledge. Etc..

1 Corinthians 12:4-13
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Simply put, if you have the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ and believe on Him as the scriptures hath said, you will know that GOD Himself has taken the guesswork out, no need to try and grab a Hebrew lexicon or search for all these different versions of the bible. GOD has made sure His word endures forever, and has NOT made it difficult to find His word. I just simply choose KJV bible because that is the Bible i was filled with Holy Spirit of GOD with, after which i endured a lot of afflictions and visions and spiritual warfare. Its time to stop questioning and trust in GOD that he has kept His own word free from error, and start reading and growing closer to GOD. And you would know that GOD has kept his word free from error if you would seek Him with your whole heart.

 

[Abram's Awakening]

"If you lift your voice for understanding and cry out for discernment; If seek for her as for gold, or like that of hidden treasures; you will discern the fear of the Lord, and discover the knowledge of God."

"It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; it is the glory of kings to search a matter out."

Solomon was inspired by the Spirit of Christ to give us specific instructions-down to this very day. Now who among the sons of men has the faith and the courage to follow them? Only time will tell...

 

[Ana the Ist]

The "debate" is taking the usual tactic that there is some sort of neutral ground between the believer and the non-believer, where none exists, for the non-believer

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Any discussion with the non-believer must start with the believer's premise that presupposes God in any apologetic argument. Why? Christians believe that the very meaningfulness of rational discourse depends on God, as everything depends on God. Indeed, it is Christ “in whom all things hold together” (Col. 1:17) and “in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge” (Col. 2:3). It is the “fear of the Lord” that is “the beginning of knowledge” (Prov. 1:7) and “the beginning of wisdom” (Psm. 111:10, Prov. 9:10).

There can be no compromise between the wisdom of God and the wisdom of the world. Unbelief leads to distortion of the truth, exchanging the truth for a lie (Rom. 1:25). Only by trusting God’s Word can we come to a saving knowledge of Christ (John 5:24, 8:31, 15:3, Rom. 10:17). And trusting entails presupposing: accepting God’s Word as what it is, the foundation of all human knowledge, the ultimate criterion of truth and error (Deut. 18:18-19, 1 Cor. 14:37, Col. 2:2-4, 2 Tim. 3:16-17, 2 Pet. 1:19-21). So the apologetic argument, like all human inquiries into truth, must presuppose the truths of God’s Word.

Until the opponent to God's word can demonstrate he or she is not borrowing from the epitemological intellectual capital of the believer for declaring this or that to be "truth", no fruitful discussion is possible. Of course that cannot be done, for it is only the existence of a Truth-Maker that truth is possible.

The debate is a classic example of the basic bankruptcy of evidential apologetic tactics. Such debates quickly degenerate, as has this one, into minutia.

For an example of presuppositionalism at its best see:

http://www.bellevuechristian.org/fa...PDFs/Apol_Bahnsen_Stein_Debate_Transcript.pdf

Better to have started with the following:

1. Either there is truth or there is no truth.

2. Assume there is no truth.

3. Yet, if there is no truth, then either this statement is true or false.

4. Assume the statement is False.

5. The statement is that the statement is false, and the statement indeed is false. Therefore, the statement is true.

6. #4 has been shown to lead to a contradiction.

7. The statement is true.

8. A contradiction has been reached against #2.

9. Therefore, there must be truth.

10. If there is truth, then there must be a ground of Truth, and we call the Truth God.​

I suppose you've never heard of hypotheticals? Is it completely out of the realm of possibility that a "truth" exists apart from your god?

Even if you don't believe it's "possible"....couldn't you just imagine it's possible for the sake of dialogue?

 

[linqinqin]

As I know, the Bible is written by Jesus' disciples. So it should be a history book recording some words of Lord Jesus. Not all of the others were inspired by God. Some of them were personal praise, understandings and explanations from the disciples.

 

[bhsmte]

As I know, the Bible is written by Jesus' disciples. So it should be a history book recording some words of Lord Jesus. Not all of the others were inspired by God. Some of them were personal praise, understandings and explanations from the disciples.

Why is it, that the majority of even Christian NT scholars agree, the gospels were written by anonymous authors?