Formal Debate: Neither the Old nor New Testament address the LGBT subject

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MarkRohfrietsch

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1. The topic and title of the debate:
Neither the Old nor New Testament address the LGBT subject

2. Cuddles333 Will assert that neither the Old or New Testament the LGBT subject while Tree of Life will be taking the position that the Bible does address the LGBT subject.

3. There will be five rounds within the debate.

4. The posts will be made alternating with Cuddles333 making the first and Tree of Life responding.

5. The time limit between posts is 1 week, that means within one week of the affirmative making his/her post, the opposing position needs to reply. The post can be made earlier, of course.

6. The maximum length for each post: 1000 words for each post in a round. The length is the upper limit.

7. Quotes and outside references are allowed. Please note that all quotes will fall under the 20% copyright rule, but the participants may decide to disallow quotes or limit them to a certain amount of the overall word total.

8. The debate may begin at any time.

9. For those not directly involved in the debate, we have set up a Peanut Gallery here: Peanut Gallery: Formal Debate: Neither the Old nor New Testament address the LGBT subject
 
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Cuddles333

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INTRODUCTION

I am not aware of any formal debate involving nearly the entire spectrum of this natural aberration, so this may get more interesting than the usual 'homosexual' debates.
I think the best place to start will be in the Book of Leviticus chapters 18 and 20.
Upon first glance, and this is how most teachers and students finish, one would conclude that what prohibitions that are being mentioned are private sins. More like 'peeping tom' sins. Upon closer and more indepth study, we find that what was being addressed was the everyday pagan worship norms of the peoples around the Israelites. This social apparatus was entrenched into the 3rd century A. D. till Constantine tore down nearly all of these pagan temples. With the spread of the Gospel, much of the outrageousness of these public pagan worship practices began to wane we see in 1Cor.5 . However, the 1st century pagan religions and their temple social circle still gave the Apostle Paul fits we see in 1Cor.6 . Sin can be very progressive. The Corinthian's sinful public worship spread over into their outside social affairs with each other.

In my 1st Affirmative coming just after this Introduction, I will be going into depth concerning some key Hebrew and Koine Greek words that I think will shine more light into our understanding of this very interesting subject.
 
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Tree of Life

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Homosexuality, heterosexuality, and sexual orientation are modern concepts. The earliest signs of identifying people in these terms comes from the 1860s and the ideas were mostly formed during the Kinsey era of modern psychology. For this reason there is no discussion of homosexuality, heterosexuality, or sexual orientation to be found in the Bible for the same reason that there’s no discussion of Republicans, Democrats, or Democracy - these artificial concepts simply weren’t invented at the time Scripture was penned. For this reason some have argued that the Bible has nothing to say on the subject of sexual orientation and that it certainly does not condemn homosexuality. But this is wrong. While the Bible does not explicitly talk about sexual orientation it certainly gives us enough data to make judgments about the morality and the coherence of these concepts. Because of this, the Bible teaches that homosexual behavior is wrong and perhaps even that the concept of sexual identity itself is significantly flawed - a very myopic and artificial way of understanding human beings. The Bible does this in two ways - by laying out creation norms and by explicitly condemning homosexual behavior.

First, the Bible condemns homosexuality by laying out creation norms. How is this? The creation norm of marriage excludes any legitimate homosexual activity. This can be seen in 1) how the Bible defines marriage and 2) how the Bible relates sexual activity to marriage.

The Bible defines marriage as between a man and a woman. This is seen in the creation account in Genesis 1 - God creates mankind to be male and female (Ge 1:27) and unites the original human pair in marriage. In Genesis 2 marriage is further defined by saying: “…a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife…” (Ge 2:24). After this marriage is always understood as a relationship between a man and a woman in Scripture. There are no examples of marriages in Scripture between two people of the same biological sex.

The Bible inextricably connects sexual behavior to marriage in Scripture. Sexual behavior and marriage are bound together in the very beginning (Ge 2:24 - “…and the two will become one flesh”). According to the Law, if sexual behavior occurs between two people who are not married a few things could happen:
  1. If it occurs between two unmarried people they must then become married. (Ex 22:16ff)
  2. If it occurs between two married people - although not married to one another - it is called adultery and was punishable by death. (Lev 20:10)
  3. If it occurs between a man and a prostitute for an exchange of money it is called prostitution and is condemned by the Law. (Lev 19:29)
So it can be seen that sexual behavior is understood as only being appropriate within the context of marriage. And since marriage is understood as a relationship between a man and a woman, this excludes all homosexual behavior.

Second, the Bible condemns homosexuality by explicitly condemning homosexual behavior. This occurs in both the OT and the NT. Homosexual behavior is condemned in the Law of Moses (Lev 18:22, 20:13). Homosexual behavior is condemned in the NT letters of Paul (Rom 1:26-27, 1 Cor 6:9-11). These verses will likely be disputed during this debate as to whether or not they actually condemn homosexual behavior or homosexuality as we know it. And when they are disputed I will address them in more detail.

But it is enough for now to establish my thesis - that the Bible does indeed address the modern notions of sexual orientation by affirming God’s design - sex within the context of marriage between a man and a woman - and also by condemning homosexual behavior - sexual activity between two people of the same biological sex. This is enough data to lead us to the conclusion that homosexual behavior is always wrong and that notions of sexual identity and sexual orientation are severely misguided and they simplistically reduce complicated people to their sexual urges.
 
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Cuddles333

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1st Affirmative:

  • It is interesting how at the end of Leviticus chapters 18 and near the end of 20, we find 2 words in the KJV that are different but in the Hebrew are the same. In 18:30 we read; "Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable (towebah) 'customs' which were committed before you, and that ye defile (tame) not yourselves therein: I am the Lord your God. " In Leviticus 20:23 we read; "And ye shall not walk in the 'manners' of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. " The Hebrew word for the 2 English words 'custom' and 'manners' is CHUQQAH and means- custom, ordinance, statute. Therefore, refers to religious practice. If the writer was referring to just the 'ways' of the Canaanites he would have used the word (derek).
  • As I have noted above, the Hebrew word (towebah) is translated into English using the same English word for a number of different Hebrew words that have different meanings. Towebah means- (things that are made impure and illicit by the decrees of religion, things belonging to the worship of idols and of idols themselves.) This is the most serious word.
  • The next in importance is Sheqets and it means- (of unclean persons and things, especially to those belonging to idolatry. Leviticus 11:12, 13, 20,23, 41,42 and Is. 66:17
  • Last in importance is Shiqquwts and it means- (of impure things such as garments and flesh. Nah. 3:6, Zec. 9:7, and 1Kings 11:5

  • The next Hebrew word that is crucial to the subject is the word Galaw (uncover) and means-(to make nude in a disgraceful sense, to exile, (captives being usually stripped.... captive (into captivity). It is this word that is used from Leviticus 18:6-20:19. The other 2 Hebrew non-crucial words are- Para and means to be bare, expose. The last is Arah and means to make empty, demolish, rase.

  • The last word of Leviticus that is crucial to the subject is Ervah (nakedness) This word is most used in Leviticus 18 and 20 and means- disgraceful nudity, shameful, dishonorable, of one's father's wife. The next word that is not crucial to the subject is Maar and means- nude place, prudenda, vacant space. Last is the word Eyrom and means- nudity, nakedness.

  • From the above Hebrew words that are a part of our subject, we can conclude that the Israelites were warned not to practice the religion of the Canaanites that forced even blood relatives to perform publicly degrading things to each other in obedience to their gods/goddesses. Even inappropriate behavior with animals. Where the woman was said to Approach (Qarab) a beast to lie down with it... Lev. 20:16 gives us indication that this was a public religious practice, for this same word is used to describe work of priests. The practice of male-male intercourse was said to be Toweba, not what society today might think the more appropriate word might have meant, which would be Shiqquwts.
Therefore, based on the above proof,
we can conclude that Leviticus 18 and
20 are dealing with ancient pagan
temple practices and were not dealing
with any of the lgbt of that time or
of today.

I will leave this 1st Affrmative now as it
is very easy to go over the word limit.

Hebrew words and definitions are from
Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
to the Old Testament
 
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Tree of Life

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1st Affirmative:

  • It is interesting how at the end of Leviticus chapters 18 and near the end of 20, we find 2 words in the KJV that are different but in the Hebrew are the same. In 18:30 we read; "Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable (towebah) 'customs' which were committed before you, and that ye defile (tame) not yourselves therein: I am the Lord your God. " In Leviticus 20:23 we read; "And ye shall not walk in the 'manners' of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. " The Hebrew word for the 2 English words 'custom' and 'manners' is CHUQQAH and means- custom, ordinance, statute. Therefore, refers to religious practice. If the writer was referring to just the 'ways' of the Canaanites he would have used the word (derek).
The argument here appears to go as follows:
  1. The Hebrew word חֻקָּה (huqqah) always refers to religious customs.
  2. The passages in question that appear to describe homosexuality in the OT occur under the purview of this term.
  3. Therefore it was only religious customs of the nations that were in view and being condemned.
An implication of this argument is that if homosexuality is practiced in a way that is not related to the Canaanite religious customs then there's nothing necessarily wrong with it - at least it is not condemned as such in Leviticus 18.

The first problem with this argument is that it is not at all clear that huqqah only refers to religious customs. The same word is used in Jeremiah 31:35-36:

35 Thus says the Lord,
who gives the sun for light by day
and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar—
the Lord of hosts is his name:

36 “If this fixed order departs
from before me, declares the Lord,
then shall the offspring of Israel cease
from being a nation before me forever.”
Here the word huqqah is translated as "fixed order" but does not appear to have any relationship with religious custom. The sense here is the regular behavior of the sun, moon, and stars. So, too, huqqah can refer to the regular behavior of the Canaanites.

A second problem with this is that there are many other activities in this passage that are condemned as the huqqot of the Canaanites which are normally condemned elsewhere and do not have any necessary connection to Canaanite idol worship. For example, also condemned in this passage is adultery - lying with your neighbors wife. Also incest is condemned. If we are to say that the homosexuality command here does not apply to us today then we must also say that the adultery command likewise does not apply for the same reasons.

A third problem is a logical one. Assume that huqqah does always refer to religious custom, which it does not. Just because homosexuality is condemned as part of religious custom does not mean that if the religious connections fade away that the behavior is then acceptable. An additional argument would be needed to establish its acceptability especially in light of all that I've mentioned in my introduction.

  • As I have noted above, the Hebrew word (towebah) is translated into English using the same English word for a number of different Hebrew words that have different meanings. Towebah means- (things that are made impure and illicit by the decrees of religion, things belonging to the worship of idols and of idols themselves.) This is the most serious word.
תּוֹעֵבָה can refer to an idol but only in a metaphorical sense. Its usual meaning is "detestable thing".

  • The next in importance is Sheqets and it means- (of unclean persons and things, especially to those belonging to idolatry. Leviticus 11:12, 13, 20,23, 41,42 and Is. 66:17
  • Last in importance is Shiqquwts and it means- (of impure things such as garments and flesh. Nah. 3:6, Zec. 9:7, and 1Kings 11:5

  • The next Hebrew word that is crucial to the subject is the word Galaw (uncover) and means-(to make nude in a disgraceful sense, to exile, (captives being usually stripped.... captive (into captivity). It is this word that is used from Leviticus 18:6-20:19. The other 2 Hebrew non-crucial words are- Para and means to be bare, expose. The last is Arah and means to make empty, demolish, rase.

  • The last word of Leviticus that is crucial to the subject is Ervah (nakedness) This word is most used in Leviticus 18 and 20 and means- disgraceful nudity, shameful, dishonorable, of one's father's wife. The next word that is not crucial to the subject is Maar and means- nude place, prudenda, vacant space. Last is the word Eyrom and means- nudity, nakedness.
All of this is fairly immaterial. Mostly what's going on in this passage has to do with sexual ethics within the family. It's not the "nudity" words that are important - but the fact that these actions are toward members of a person's family. These nudity words are used elsewhere to refer to normal sexual relationships within marriage (Ruth 3:4).

  • From the above Hebrew words that are a part of our subject, we can conclude that the Israelites were warned not to practice the religion of the Canaanites that forced even blood relatives to perform publicly degrading things to each other in obedience to their gods/goddesses. Even inappropriate behavior with animals. Where the woman was said to Approach (Qarab) a beast to lie down with it... Lev. 20:16 gives us indication that this was a public religious practice, for this same word is used to describe work of priests. The practice of male-male intercourse was said to be Toweba, not what society today might think the more appropriate word might have meant, which would be Shiqquwts.
Therefore, based on the above proof,
we can conclude that Leviticus 18 and
20 are dealing with ancient pagan
temple practices and were not dealing
with any of the lgbt of that time or
of today.

I will leave this 1st Affrmative now as it
is very easy to go over the word limit.

Hebrew words and definitions are from
Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon
to the Old Testament

These conclusions are not legitimate. There may be some connection between all of these lewd behaviors and idolatry that the text is making. But there is connection between all sin and idolatry. The first commandment is to worship only God and, as has been said before, no one ever violates any other command until they first violate the first command. All sin is idolatry. Still, the idolatry connections are not as strong as Cuddles claims as I have demonstrated above.
 
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Cuddles333

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2nd Affirmative


I see no difficulty understanding the cosmos obeying the laws (ordinances) of God, nor understanding the Levitical ordinances as being Deuteronomic (reiterated) later on to the Israelites before entering Canaan, with some Sundry ordinances added.

As far as an ancient pagan religion having faded away, yet, the practices still condemned, all we have to do is answer yes or no to the question of whether our having relations with our spouse in the ruins of a pagan temple at the foot of a giant Baal statue, would be sinful.



Moving on to the New Testament, I think it imperative that we understand what the word fornicate meant in the 1st century. The word has it's origin in the Latin language and meant (fornix) 'arch' where prostitutes made their living. In the Koine Greek it was known as the involvement of, and with, pagan temple prostitution. A 'fornicator' would have been either of these. This was the shock the disciples of Jesus experienced when He said that the only grounds for divorcing their wife was her being a participant in one these temples, instead of just burning the toast (so to speak). They said that if this was the case then it's better for a man not to marry then.

Now to the word Arsenokoites. Without an understanding of the pagan temple prostitutes and the social damage those temples brought about as described in 1Corinthians chapters 5 and 6, and the end of Romans chapter 1, it is very difficult to give a good definition of this word. Summing up the type of social damage and the placement of this word in 2 New Testament passages (1Cor.6:9,10) & (1Tim.1:10) and a very good non-New Testament passage: Acts of John 36, the most accurate definition would be rip-off artists. (1Cor.6:9,10) "....Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor morally weak, nor rip-off artists, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards,...." (1Tim.1:10) "For fornicators, for rip-off artists, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjured persons...." (Acts of John 36) "....Likewise also thou poisoner, sorcerer, robber, defrauder, rip-off artist, thief..."

The next word that has not properly been defined is malakos. This word was understood to mean that a male had been exposed to much perfume, many baths much shade and gentle music. They were made to be overly sensitive for being males and instead of being warriors they were more intellectuals and had an appetite for easy money and pleasures. (see today's career politician). We can see how defining it as 'effeminate' is incorrect. Clement, The Instructor, Book III, chapters2-3 On Drinking & On Costly Vessels. Plato The Republic, 360 B.C. Book III. Dionysius of Halicarnassus 60-07 B.C. Roman Antiquities.

The A.D. 1st century church understood arrenomanes to mean mad after or boy crazy, or, paiderasste meaning sexual behavior towards males.

The A.D. 1st century church understood pathikos to mean the passive penetrated partner in a male couple.



Now to Romans 1:24-28

The ancient pagan Roman orgies of the cult Cybele, the Apostle Paul said that it was even a shame to speak of the things done in them. (Eph.5:12) Though they did change the use of their bodies to that which was 'against nature' this was not sin....the sin was their mind turning against God. It was written by the ancients that women would often turn to anal sex to prevent pregnancy. They wrote that this practice was 'against nature'. Male-male intercourse is also 'against nature' and has been around as long as recorded history. To 95% to 98% of the heterosexual world (and even the homosexual world) this would be considered a natural aberration, not a sin. The mental/spiritual state of the participants of these orgies produced a very negative social problem as is confirmed in (1Cor.5 and 6). Paul gave us an even deeper look in (Romans 1:28-32).
 
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Tree of Life

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Cuddles333I see no difficulty understanding the cosmos obeying the laws (ordinances) of God, nor understanding the Levitical ordinances as being Deuteronomic (reiterated) later on to the Israelites before entering Canaan, with some Sundry ordinances added.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. You said that huqqah always refers to religious customs. I demonstrated that it does not always refer to religious customs and so might not refer to religious customs in the Leviticus passages concerning homosexual behavior.

Moving on to the New Testament, I think it imperative that we understand what the word fornicate meant in the 1st century. The word has it's origin in the Latin language and meant (fornix) 'arch' where prostitutes made their living. In the Koine Greek it was known as the involvement of, and with, pagan temple prostitution. A 'fornicator' would have been either of these. This was the shock the disciples of Jesus experienced when He said that the only grounds for divorcing their wife was her being a participant in one these temples, instead of just burning the toast (so to speak). They said that if this was the case then it's better for a man not to marry then.

The word fornication is not the subject of debate here. In the NT passages that I've cited it's not used in relation to homosexual behavior. While I still disagree with your conclusions about the nature of this word, they are entirely immaterial since the word is not used in reference to homosexual behavior.

Now to the word Arsenokoites. Without an understanding of the pagan temple prostitutes and the social damage those temples brought about as described in 1Corinthians chapters 5 and 6, and the end of Romans chapter 1, it is very difficult to give a good definition of this word. Summing up the type of social damage and the placement of this word in 2 New Testament passages (1Cor.6:9,10) & (1Tim.1:10) and a very good non-New Testament passage: Acts of John 36, the most accurate definition would be rip-off artists. (1Cor.6:9,10) "....Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor morally weak, nor rip-off artists, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards,...." (1Tim.1:10) "For fornicators, for rip-off artists, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjured persons...." (Acts of John 36) "....Likewise also thou poisoner, sorcerer, robber, defrauder, rip-off artist, thief..."

You'll need to cite some source material in order to establish this point. I don't see why it should be translated as "rip off artist". Here's a few Greek dictionaries on the word:

780 ἀρσενοκοίτης (arsenokoitēs), ου (ou), ὁ (ho): n.masc.; ≡ Str 733—LN 88.280 male homosexual, one who takes the active male role in homosexual intercourse (1Co 6:9), specifically interpreted as male homosexual paedophilia (nab footnote); possibly a more generic term in first Timothy; sodomites (rsv, nrsv, nkjv), perverts (niv, neb, reb), practicing homosexuals (nab), homosexual (njb), (1Ti 1:10+), note: translations possibly use certain specific terms to infer or allow certain theologies

Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) (electronic ed.). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

ἀρσενοκοίτης (arsenokoitēs), sodomite. A compound of ἄρσην and κεῖμαι. Cognate words: ἀνάκειμαι, ἀντίκειμαι, ἀπόκειμαι, ἄρσην, ἐπίκειμαι, κατάκειμαι, κεῖμαι, κοιμάομαι, κοιμάω, κοίμησις, κοίτη, κοιτών, παράκειμαι, περίκειμαι, πρόκειμαι, συνανάκειμαι

(2011). The Lexham Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament. Logos Bible Software.

You can see from the above article that the word is a compound of arsen (male) and keimai (to lie with). Literally - one who lies with a male.

Please cite some source material in defense of your translation.

The next word that has not properly been defined is malakos. This word was understood to mean that a male had been exposed to much perfume, many baths much shade and gentle music. They were made to be overly sensitive for being males and instead of being warriors they were more intellectuals and had an appetite for easy money and pleasures. (see today's career politician). We can see how defining it as 'effeminate' is incorrect. Clement, The Instructor, Book III, chapters2-3 On Drinking & On Costly Vessels. Plato The Republic, 360 B.C. Book III. Dionysius of Halicarnassus 60-07 B.C. Roman Antiquities.

The A.D. 1st century church understood arrenomanes to mean mad after or boy crazy, or, paiderasste meaning sexual behavior towards males.

The A.D. 1st century church understood pathikos to mean the passive penetrated partner in a male couple.

Malakos simple means "soft" or "luxurious" but it appears to refer to homosexual activity within the NT contexts we're looking at. Here's some dictionary articles on this word:

3434 μαλακός (malakos), ή (ē), όν (on): adj.; ≡ Str 3120—1. LN 79.100 soft, fine, clothing delicate to the touch (Mt 11:8; Lk 7:25+); 2. LN 88.281 homosexual, passive partner in male-to-male sex act.: male prostitute (niv), effeminate (nasb, asv, kjv), homosexual (nkjv), (homo)sexual pervert (rsv, reb, neb conflated translation), self indulgent (njb!), boy prostitute, i.e., a catamite (nab see ftnt), (1Co 6:9+)

Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) (electronic ed.). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

μαλακός, -ή, -όν, soft; soft to the touch: ἱμάτια, Mt. 11:8 R G L br.; Lk. 7:25, (ἱματίων πολυτελῶν κ. μαλακῶν, Artem. oneir. 1, 78; ἐσθής, Hom. Od. 23, 290; Artem. oneir. 2, 3; χιτών, Hom. Il. 2, 42); and simply τὰ μαλακά, soft raiment (see λευκός, 1): Mt. 11:8 T Tr WH. Like the Lat. mollis, metaph. and in a bad sense: effeminate, of a catamite, a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness, 1 Co. 6:9 (Dion. Hal. antt. 7, 2 sub fin.; [Diog. Laërt. 7, 173 fin.]).*

Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: being Grimm’s Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (p. 387). New York: Harper & Brothers.

Now to Romans 1:24-28

The ancient pagan Roman orgies of the cult Cybele, the Apostle Paul said that it was even a shame to speak of the things done in them. (Eph.5:12) Though they did change the use of their bodies to that which was 'against nature' this was not sin....the sin was their mind turning against God. It was written by the ancients that women would often turn to anal sex to prevent pregnancy. They wrote that this practice was 'against nature'. Male-male intercourse is also 'against nature' and has been around as long as recorded history. To 95% to 98% of the heterosexual world (and even the homosexual world) this would be considered a natural aberration, not a sin. The mental/spiritual state of the participants of these orgies produced a very negative social problem as is confirmed in (1Cor.5 and 6). Paul gave us an even deeper look in (Romans 1:28-32).

It sounds to me here like you're agreeing that Romans 1 refers to homosexual activity and condemns it, but I'm not sure.
 
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Cuddles333

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3rd Affirmative


The word Fornication is the cornerstone of this debate. The reason being that for a number of centuries the stage had been set to scripturally trap and condemn the innocent LGBT people by changing the 1st century meaning of this word. The word has it's origin in the ancient Latin (Roman) language. Fornix meant arch in the ancient Latin. The pagan temple prostitutes would perform their practice under the arch and this is where the Greek word inappropriate contentia comes from. Fornication is the sexual pagan worship practice to their deity. One did not have to be a temple prostitute to be a fornicator, one just needed to be a participant. Jesus, in Mt.19:9, laid down the only clause for Christian divorce...fornication. This caused His disciples to say that it is better then for a man not to even marry if that is the case. Fornication was grounds for stoning at that time under the Law of Moses. Today, many anti- LGBT Bible teachers try to claim that fornication has a broad meaning and can mean anything deemed sexually immoral at the time. This (I believe) is just an excuse to try to catch LGBTs in this super-wide unscriptural loop. A Christian could then even use watching R-Rated movies, or looking through the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition, as a reason (Mt.19:9) to divorce their spouse.

The word Arsenokoites of (1Cor.6:9) (1Tim.1:10) was created by the Apostle Paul in an effort to show the connection of the pagan temple prostitution of the 1st century, to those the ancient Jews had to deal with centuries before. (2Kings 23:7) The word is from Leviticus 18:22 and Paul combined the words male-bedders from the passage. The non-Jewish Christians would have found no meaning to the word. They, and even the former Jews of the congregation, knew that if the Apostle was identifying what we today call the LGBT people, he would have used the words for them of that day- Paiderasste: sexual behavior between males. Pathikos: the passive penetrated partner in a male couple. Lesbiai: female/female sexuality. Malakos: soft, moral weakness.
Arsenokoites carried an attached meaning to prostitution. In a number of extant writings this word is placed in between words having to do with what we today call fraud. At that time the word they used was 'deprive' . These Arsenokoites would deprive people of their money.

In Romans chapter 1 we read of the pagan cult worship of Cybele/Attis and what these orgies did to the prostitutes and participants. The more lust that was whipped up produced more depravity. The more depravity produced more lust. Many of the male prostitutes underwent castration to identify with Attis and developed the diseases associated with female prostitutes. The Roman leaders allowed the Cybele/Attis cult to flourish because they believed the Cybele prostitutes to have the gift of prophesy and when consulted, would prophesy if a decision would be victorious.
It is here (Rom.1:26) where we find that Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon let's us down on the word: against nature, and in (1Cor.6:9) & (1Tim.1:10) on the word arsenokoites. Thayer's shows it's prejudice on 'nature' by just above where he says it means 'against nature' he wrote 'monstrous' 'abnormal' 'perverse'. Then when he came to arsenokoites he attached the word 'sodomite' . A scholar would be totally unprofessional to do that today. Sodomites were not temple prostitutes, they were citizens of the city of Sodom.
It is argued that since male/male & female/female sex was performed in the pagan temples, then it was just as sinful outside. What is not mentioned is the male/female sex. If they are trying to condemn heterosexual sex outside of marriage....would this then be sinful if the man and woman in the pagan temple were married?

This is my final Affirmative and I deliberately tried to keep it as short and to the point as possible because it is such an emotionally charged subject and it may be difficult for many to concentrate on much information all at once. I will post my conclusion after Tree of Life posts his final negative.
 
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Tree of Life

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The word Fornication is the cornerstone of this debate. The reason being that for a number of centuries the stage had been set to scripturally trap and condemn the innocent LGBT people by changing the 1st century meaning of this word.

Let's be clear here. You're getting fornication from the KJV or a similar translation. In 1 Corinthians 6 it goes like this:

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

As you've noted, the english fornicators corresponds with the Greek πόρνοι (inappropriate contentoi). Your first mistake is to claim that because πόρνοι occurs in close proximity to "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind" (homosexual offenders) that it therefore governs the meaning of these latter terms. But I see no reason why this should be the case. It appears that Paul in 1 Corinthians 6 is listing a litany of different kinds of sins which are not necessarily related.

Even if πόρνοι refers exclusively to pagan temple prostitution it does not follow that μαλακοὶ and ἀρσενοκοῖται are related to temple prostitution just because they occur in the same list. But as I'll demonstrate below, πόρνοι does not refer exclusively to temple prostitution.

The word has it's origin in the ancient Latin (Roman) language. Fornix meant arch in the ancient Latin. The pagan temple prostitutes would perform their practice under the arch and this is where the Greek word inappropriate contentia comes from.

Fornix does mean "archway" in latin but please cite some credible original sources that show that the arch is somehow associated with temple prostitution. Otherwise all I have to go on is a bare claim which may or may not be true.

Either way, however, the latin is not relevant. The OT and NT were written in Hebrew and Greek and so only Hebrew and Greek etymology really matter. You make a jump from latin etymology to the Greek word πόρνοι which doesn't seem to follow.

Taking a closer look at the Greek word πόρνος (sexually immoral person) has a very broad range of meaning that includes all kinds of sexually immoral behavior - including temple prostitution. There is no reason to limit it to this one narrow sense and say that πόρνος always refers to temple prostitution.

One example of this might suffice: in John 8:41 the Pharisees accuse Jesus of having been born of sexual immorality (πορνεία). Mary obviously is not being accused of being a temple prostitute, but rather having unlawful sexual relations before marriage. Unless you think that Mary was accused of being a temple prostitute?

Fornication is the sexual pagan worship practice to their deity.

As I hope I've demonstrated above, πορνεία describes much more than pagan temple prostitution. For more information see the article on πορνεία in TDNT.

They, and even the former Jews of the congregation, knew that if the Apostle was identifying what we today call the LGBT people, he would have used the words for them of that day- Paiderasste: sexual behavior between males. Pathikos: the passive penetrated partner in a male couple. Lesbiai: female/female sexuality. Malakos: soft, moral weakness.


Paul does use the word malakos to refer to homosexual behavior in 1 Corinthians 6:9.

Arsenokoites
carried an attached meaning to prostitution. In a number of extant writings this word is placed in between words having to do with what we today call fraud. At that time the word they used was 'deprive' . These Arsenokoites would deprive people of their money.

Please show these extant writings. Just because this word is placed in proximity to other words meaning "fraud" does not mean that this word means "fraud". As I've already demonstrated, the word means "one who lies with a male".

In Romans chapter 1 we read of the pagan cult worship of Cybele/Attis and what these orgies did to the prostitutes and participants. The more lust that was whipped up produced more depravity. The more depravity produced more lust. Many of the male prostitutes underwent castration to identify with Attis and developed the diseases associated with female prostitutes. The Roman leaders allowed the Cybele/Attis cult to flourish because they believed the Cybele prostitutes to have the gift of prophesy and when consulted, would prophesy if a decision would be victorious.

Footnote? I'd like some source material to be able to determine what you're saying is true. I won't simply take you at your word.

It is here (Rom.1:26) where we find that Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon let's us down on the word: against nature, and in (1Cor.6:9) & (1Tim.1:10) on the word arsenokoites. Thayer's shows it's prejudice on 'nature' by just above where he says it means 'against nature' he wrote 'monstrous' 'abnormal' 'perverse'. Then when he came to arsenokoites he attached the word 'sodomite' . A scholar would be totally unprofessional to do that today. Sodomites were not temple prostitutes, they were citizens of the city of Sodom.

Could you cite a reputable lexicon or dictionary that defines this word as you suggest? All the ones I know of disagree with you.
 
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Cuddles333

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As this debate closes, it is obvious the extent of the hardening blindness that propaganda has produced since the church created the slang word for anal intercourse by using the name of the city of Sodom, in 1300 A .D. I think the way to overcome this worldly pride in the church, is to make known just how prevalent male/male and female/female sex was in that time and how the only thing that was criticized by the early church fathers was just the excess of things. Zeno, the founder of Stoicism, was said to only practice sex with other males. It was believed that male/female sex made the male weaker.

Those who found that they could not get 'homosexuality' out of the word arsenokoites
have tried to get it out of the word malakos. Even though there was a word for the male who was the recipient of the couple, the Apostle did not use it. Those who try to take this word out of it's 1st century meaning and try to use it to mean a feminine male, run into a serious problem. Just how feminine does a male have to be before he is considered a malakos? It would also have to follow that he would be considered this sinner if he entered the historically feminine occupation of Hairdresser, Nurse, or Secretary. Since no one has been ex-communicated or disfellowshipped from the church because of this, it must be because the church did not understand this word, or, has come to understand that it has been teaching in error on this for many years. Some still try to teach that this word means 'a male with feminine inclinations' by appealing to the Law of Moses (Deut.22:5) where it states that a male "shall not put on a woman's garment" because it was abomination (towebah) (the part where it says that a woman shall not wear that which pertaineth to the man has been disregarded now for many years) think that this is referring to a man's private practice. This is not true. This passage is addressing the pagan religious practice of 'Moon-god' sacrifice. In this Phoenician religion the male making the sacrifice was to wear female garments and the female was to wear male garments. This goddess was actually Venus so they believed, and she was part male-part female, and this is how they pleased her.

This fight is really a fight against many years of propaganda. If a person does not want to see truth, it means they care more about something else.
 
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Tree of Life

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My opponent has failed to demonstrate her many claims and also failed to address my arguments put forth in my first post. So in conclusion we can say that the Bible does indeed address and condemn homosexual behavior in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. It does this explicitly in the passages already mentioned, but it also does it implicitly by assuming a framework for sexual behavior that totally excludes homosexual activity.

For this reason every Bible believing Christian today ought to flee from homosexual behavior and ought to teach and maintain that it is indeed immoral. The pastoral issue of how to deal lovingly with a person who is entrenched in this behavior or who personally struggles with these sins is another question entirely. But even that question must be based on these primary conclusions about the morality of homosexual behavior.
 
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