Forgiving the gay community

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yeshuaslavejeff

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QUOTE="IAMABELIEVER1979, post: 71421363, member: 390182"].... ... But my question is about forgiveness for the sinner. Should we forgive the gay community instead of feeling bitter towards them? Every time we get into these fights about homosexuality we always bring up the fact that they are the ones who are sueing other Christians. Or we always bring up the fact that they have Gay Pride parades and they're throwing their lifestyle in our face. Or we bring up the transgender bathroom laws.

These things are not going away... ... .[/QUOTE

Actually, in Christ, in Ekklesia, His assembly, they do go away. His Word is Perfect. So also His Plan, Purpose, and Salvation in Jesus.
In Christ, in Ekklesia, His assembly, criminals / thieves/ adulterers/ greedy/ perverts/ idolators/ all "go away" - they are not in His assembly.
Oh, they might "start" or visit an assembly,
but as Jesus is followed, as YHWH'S WORD is honored,
all thse evil things are done away, everyone in Ekklesia, not just a few, not only special ones, is purified, willingly, repenting/turning to YHWH and away from sin.
 
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com7fy8

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I do have a tendency to criticize other people.
"He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness." (Hebrews 5:2)

From our own experience of how we ourselves can be wrong and suffer, we can feel for others and have compassion on them :) And as God changes us to become more and more real in loving, this gives us hope for all He can do for anyone else, too.

People can look so impossible and stubborn. We can seem like impossible cases ourselves, after we have so failed to get ourselves to do better. But God is greater than we are (1 John 4:4) :) He is able to change our nature to become loving, and He is able to save any evil person. Jesus suffered and died like He did on the cross, with hope for any evil person, at all. Love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7).

Jesus says we need to deny ourselves and take up our cross daily and follow Him > Luke 9:23 < and I now understand that our cross is not only some hard thing in our lives or people giving us a hard time, but the cross Jesus means includes how we also care for and have hope for any and all people, like Jesus on the cross was doing; feed on Ephesians 5:2 > God does want us to love like Jesus on the cross; and He wants us to forgive like He has done > Ephesians 4:31-32. And God in us is easily able to succeed in having us do this with Him > "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God," Jesus Himself says in Luke 18:27.

And this has us sharing with Jesus Himself in us and pleasing our Heavenly Father more and more like Jesus does, so God is more and more at home in us like He is in Heaven where this love comes from, in the Holy Spirit >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

So, thank You, God, how we know we need to do better. And please have us succeeding more and more in submitting to You and seeking Your real correction :help::pray::prayer::clap::groupray::clap:
 
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Kenny'sID

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I think you are right about that. Actually I know you are right about that. I've committed adultery in my heart. And I do have a tendency to criticize other people. I get angry with the haters when I am hating as well.

I have a problem with hypocrisy.

I know that you're not saying that to me. But I am realizing that it is something that I need to work on. I need to take the log out of my own eye first.

Just something to consider about the log/the beam verses the mote/spec.

Jesus was very specific when he made comparison to sin (he BTW was saying some sin is worse than others) Log, or beam verses mote (kjv) or spec/something tiny. So think about the two, your lusting in your mind, as opposed to actually living in continual unrepented homosexual sin.

Now ask yourself who has the Log and who has the spec, and do you truly have no right to confront or accuse the homosexual? I think Jesus was actually saying you do because by comparison , you have gotten the log out of your eye and it's not just a spec in the Homosexuals eye.

Again, just something to consider, even if just in general for that verse, the degree of sin is very relevant or Jesus would not have been so specific on that point.
 
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Catherineanne

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I am just wondering about something and I could be completely wrong about it.

First of all, I want to say that I'm not trying to be self-righteous. I myself have issues with forgiveness. I have a hard time forgiving my family, and even the church. But that is my issue. I am working on that.

I also recognize my own sin. And I know that I have no right to point out the sin of other people because I struggle with my own besetting sins. In fact, I question my Christianity. I don't even call myself a Christian. But I have committed my life to Christ again.

This is in no way saying how the church is wrong and how the Christians are wrong. I am just trying to understand the mind of the believer.

We get into major fights when it comes to homosexuality. I understand the scriptures when it says homosexuality is an Abomination to God. I do not argue with that or try to interpret scripture the way that I want to.

But my question is about forgiveness for the sinner. Should we forgive the gay community instead of feeling bitter towards them? Every time we get into these fights about homosexuality we always bring up the fact that they are the ones who are sueing other Christians. Or we always bring up the fact that they have Gay Pride parades and they're throwing their lifestyle in our face. Or we bring up the transgender bathroom laws.

These things are not going away. And Jesus said before he died 'father forgive them for they know not what they do.' Shouldn't that be the attitude that Christians have concerning the gay community and the things that they do?

Gays think that when you denied them service it it is like denying an African American.

Now I know that that's not the case, but that's how they see it. I honestly don't think they know what they're doing.

If I am completely wrong let me know. I am trying to not lean on my own understanding.

The Lord says, 'you shall love the Lord thy God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind and with all your strength, and your neighbour as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.'

The ONLY question after that is, 'are gay people my neighbours', to which the answer is yes; every single person on earth that we happen to encounter is a neighbour. And then it follows that if this person is your neighbour you MUST treat them as you would treat yourself; with respect and acceptance. There is nobody on earth who is without sin; not one.

That means no more talk of abomination, as if their sin is worse than yours; it isn't. And no more denying them service that is offered to any other person. That is discrimination and it is indeed the same sin of discrimination as the sin of discriminating against black people, or disabled people, or any other oppressed group of people.

And in case you think gay people are not oppressed, take a look at how good, honourable, honest Christian people talk about them in this place. Absolutely disgraceful, much of it. Being gay is NOT the unforgiveable sin but far too often we behave as if it were.

Love God; Love thy neighbour. That's it.

No dividing people into sheep and goats before we start, or else we give other people permission to shove us into the 'goats' category as well. That is God's job, not ours, and he does not take kindly to people trying to take his place.
 
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Catherineanne

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I think you are right about that. Actually I know you are right about that. I've committed adultery in my heart. And I do have a tendency to criticize other people. I get angry with the haters when I am hating as well.

I have a problem with hypocrisy.

I know that you're not saying that to me. But I am realizing that it is something that I need to work on. I need to take the log out of my own eye first.

This is true of all of us, I would imagine.
 
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Catherineanne

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Forgiveness is great, but you can't really forgive a community that doesn't acknowledge that they're doing anything that needs forgiving. I'm not saying we should treat them with hatred, but you can't really forgive until there is repentance first.

Some people can.
 
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Catherineanne

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No I want to believe what you are saying. I don't want to put words in your mouth,it just seemed like the way the phrase was structured, I drew that conclusion I'm wondering how they would be rudely awakened? Would you yell at them? Somehow through intimidation, convince them to no longer be a homosexual? Are you telling me to believe what I want to believe because you don't want to specifically say you would act violently but you want me to draw that conclusion? Violence is surely an option and one that has been used many times. I think that the approach just usually does not turn them away from their homosexual behavior.

Would you say this of a glutton?

What percentage of people in the US are overweight? Do you think of them in the same way as you do gay people, and if not, why not?

What about avaricious people? Proud people? Adulterers? People who disrespect their parents?

Why focus on this one group of people when there are so many sinners out there; millions of them.
 
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Catherineanne

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We should not hate the sinner.. We should hate the sin.. If a Christian is hating on homosexual people they need to step back and start asking themselves some serious questions...

But we Christians need to stand up and give a warning to Homosexuals that their sexual practices are an abomination to God and very sinful.. But we also need to tell Homosexuals that sins are forgiven by believing Jesus and trusting in the Atonement Jesus secured for humans to be forgiven.. All humans have their fair share of sins and while we may have opinions on what is a mayor sin and what is a little sin. In truth any sin is enough to see us being cast into the eternal lake of fire because we are dealing with a perfect God who's required passing level is Perfection.. So any sin will see us damned if we do not have the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ covering us..

Jesus only mentioned one sin that was unforgivable and that was blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.. Which the scribes did when they claimed Jesus was doing His miracles by the power of a demon and thus they blasphemed the Holy Spirit by calling the Holy Spirit a demon.. All other sins shall be forgiven those people who believe Jesus and trust 100% in the Atonement Jesus secured for their salvation..

It is understandable that Christians ( being mere humans with faults ) get very frustrated with gay rights people who are seeking to have homosexual sex acts embraced by society as being acceptable and worthy of celebration.. These people are doing their best to send people to the eternal lake of fire by telling them their homosexuality is just fine and good with God.. While Christians who are giving the homosexuals the truth are actually trying their best to see those homosexuals saved from Gods judgement.. But as far as the general society is concerned it is the gay rights activists who are being nice to homosexuals and the Christians who are being nasty towards the Homosexuals ... This is very frustrating to Christians who really want to see homosexuals saved and have eternal life with God..

Good grief.

Once again, would you talk about gluttons like this? Their sin is condemned far more in Scripture than being gay is. Elevating the sins of OTHER people above our own is humbug; pure and simple. Humbug.

36 Bible verses about Gluttony

25 Helpful Bible Verses About Gluttony

Why are we all so obsessed with what other people do in their bedrooms, while ignoring our own sins in the restaurant, and elsewhere?
 
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Deadworm

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In the 1990s, I pastored a 2-church Methodist charge in the Finger Lakes region of western NY. When my church pianist died, one church hired Jon, a non-Christian gay Jewish jazz band leader, to replace her, without consulting me. They didn't know Jon was a cocaine addict! Well, that church needed a choir director/ piano player and I thought Jon would only stay with us a couple of months because our pay was poor and he had to drive 50 miles from Rochester to get to the church. I thought wrong! As Jon sensed the Holy Spirit speaking to him during our services, he quietly conquered his drug habit, became a devout Christian, and, for all I know, is still serving my old church after all these years!

A year or so after Jon's arrival some members pressed me to confront Jon about his supposed sexual lifestyle. Actually, we knew nothing about his lifestyle! I pointed out that Jon was being transformed by the Gospel and such a confrontation might well just drive him away! So I said nothing.

Then a remarkable thing happened. A group of middle-aged and elderly women from our church drove the 50+ miles up to Rochester to support Jon's band as they performed their gigs in gay bars! This freaked out the patrons! The result? Jon's whole attitude towards our church changed from just a job to a deep commitment. Soon several gay an lesbian visitors drove the 50+ miles down from Rochester to attend our church. Someone asked them: "Why do you attend this church? It's a conservative evangelical church, not an open and inclusive church like some of the Rochester churches you might attend." The replied: "People from those churches tend to react to our sex orientation out of political correctness and our fellowship with them seems shallow. But your people are warm and accepting to us on the basis of authentic human encounters, and we much prefer that."

But, you say, your non-confrontational approach just reinforced their sinful gay lifestyle!" First, I didn't ask them about that. Second, only the Holy Spirit can transform lives; and all effective evangelism is relational. A confrontational approach would simply have driven them away, embittered. Anti-gay Christians need to recognize that conversion is usually a long process and we need to establish accepting loving relationships first, if we expect the Holy Spirit to work in sinners' lives.
 
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Blade

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For me its like this.. love them.. duh..this is written. Homosexuality is abomination to God. We dont condone sin. And its written "..........and what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

Its a sin. And though I dont seek them or anyone in sin out. .. I love the song playing right now "just as I am".. perfect timing huh. So if they stood before Jesus.. He forgives.. sets free..but one HAS to want it.. And He will say.. go and sin no more. We are the light of this world.. and ALL darkness runs from the light. It can not stay in the light.

Fact is..Jesus already died.. rose OH PRAISE YOU FATHER.. PRAISE YOU JESUS! WOW.. so forgiven the world is... but one has to repent and do a 180....not a 360.

So.. if they or anyone in sin comes to me.. forgive..YES.. help YES.. judge NO.. condemn NO! Bend to help YES! Really depends on the moment..
 
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rturner76

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Would you say this of a glutton?
Not in this thread, it's about homosexuality

What percentage of people in the US are overweight? Do you think of them in the same way as you do gay people, and if not, why not?

What about avaricious people? Proud people? Adulterers? People who disrespect their parents?

Why focus on this one group of people when there are so many sinners out there; millions of them.

I have always struggled with the sin of gluttony myself. I am a recovering addict and so anything that gives me pleasure, I participate in to a gluttonous level. I have an over active reward center in my brain so anything that gives me pleasure, my brain sends me signals to seek it out at all costs. Because my brain is wired differently than a "normal" one, does that mean I am allowed to let my reward center run rampant and inject heroin at all costs? Is that an acceptable behavior in this society? Why not? I have an abnormal reward center. I can't help that I was born with this attraction to heroin. It's society that has to change and make heroin addiction acceptable right?

The reason people tend to focus on homosexuality instead of "avaricious people, proud people, and people who disrespect their parents" is simple: There is no holiday or national weekend of parades celebrating the acts of avaricious, pride, and disrespect of parents

I believe in civil liberty. Do what you want to do, there is no law against it. Just don't tell me it's not a sin.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Would you say this of a glutton?

What percentage of people in the US are overweight? Do you think of them in the same way as you do gay people, and if not, why not?

What about avaricious people? Proud people? Adulterers? People who disrespect their parents?

Why focus on this one group of people when there are so many sinners out there; millions of them.
Who is focusing on one group of people ?
Everyone one of those you spoke of, and more -
YHWH says specifically what to do.
Yes, for the adulterer, the thief, the greedy, the glutton, the man who has a hot temper too often,
and the sexually abominable....
every one,
no focus on one instead of the others,

DO as YHWH SAYS.
 
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CrystalDragon

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I am just wondering about something and I could be completely wrong about it.

First of all, I want to say that I'm not trying to be self-righteous. I myself have issues with forgiveness. I have a hard time forgiving my family, and even the church. But that is my issue. I am working on that.

I also recognize my own sin. And I know that I have no right to point out the sin of other people because I struggle with my own besetting sins. In fact, I question my Christianity. I don't even call myself a Christian. But I have committed my life to Christ again.

This is in no way saying how the church is wrong and how the Christians are wrong. I am just trying to understand the mind of the believer.

We get into major fights when it comes to homosexuality. I understand the scriptures when it says homosexuality is an Abomination to God. I do not argue with that or try to interpret scripture the way that I want to.

But my question is about forgiveness for the sinner. Should we forgive the gay community instead of feeling bitter towards them? Every time we get into these fights about homosexuality we always bring up the fact that they are the ones who are sueing other Christians. Or we always bring up the fact that they have Gay Pride parades and they're throwing their lifestyle in our face. Or we bring up the transgender bathroom laws.

These things are not going away. And Jesus said before he died 'father forgive them for they know not what they do.' Shouldn't that be the attitude that Christians have concerning the gay community and the things that they do?

Gays think that when you denied them service it it is like denying an African American.

Now I know that that's not the case, but that's how they see it. I honestly don't think they know what they're doing.

If I am completely wrong let me know. I am trying to not lean on my own understanding.


Homosexual sex is the problem according to the Bible. Not attraction. You can't control that and Christians shouldn't berate gay people for feeling chaste affection for someone.
 
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seeking.IAM

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Abomination means "not natural". In Bible-speak that is usually a very good thing. "Out of the ordinary" would be accurate)...

Point of order. I'm no Hebrew scholar and can't say what the word means from which "abomination" is translated, but in English it means something that is hated or detestable, not something that is "unnatural."

The Bible calls many things abominations. Some Christians only seem to be stuck on this one.
 
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Human Sacrifice

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The "Gay Community" works as an anti-intellectual fabrication. UNTIL I see a very deep work from American christians on deciding what exactly it is and where it comes from we should all refuse to consign a bigoted fantasy. Then again, how easy was it to not mess up with your sexuality unlike gays? Maybe there is a high demand for eunuchs, they could be useful.

In my opinion, the depth of suffering possible for "gays" is sufficient. Why would you be able to deny services to them? How many gays will fit on your pitchfork in a state of anarchy?

If this issue bothers you, go for the long work, the long con. Enough decisions have been made rashly. What is your proposed method of social control so that you feel you can say these things? You are not "losing" if gays suffer. Though keep quiet, and you will win too easy.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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One can not forgive someone who has not offended you personally.

Jesus on the cross was forgiving them who put him on the cross, there was a personal offence to Jesus. We all are guilty of that offence when we sin.

The Gay agenda is political and is trying to get everyone to accept their evil lifestyle as normal and good. All it takes for evil to prosper is for Good Men to do nothing and not oppose evil. By opposing the Gay agenda one is not hating people with Same Sex Attraction. They choose a martyrs complex and claim we do.

Our message should be the same as Jesus,

John 8:11
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Knowledge of Scriptures allows the Holy Spirit to convict one of sin,

Isaiah 5

20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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chaste affection for someone.
There's no place in Scripture, YHWH'S Plan, YHWH'S PURPOSE, in JESUS, in His Saved Ekklesia,
that
"chaste (YHWH'S -Biblically= chaste) affection" is ever equated with perversion or abomination that is always associated with being gay or homo or whatever else YHWH forbids in any and all languages.
I.E. "chaste (YHWH'S -Biblically= chaste)" anything is never found in unrepentant unsaved sinners. The nature , flesh/carnal/worldly, of men is not chaste.

Also,
just like alcoholics are unable to not lie, so also
perverts are unable to not lie, like all other sinners,
until (if ever) they turn to YHWH by faith in JESUS and repent and get saved ( no matter how many steps that takes, whether 1 once, or dozens over decades) and delivered from the control of the devil, sin, and the flesh.
 
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4x4toy

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In reality I could care less what some one does but what does the Word say . I don't judge but the Word does . But raise your hand if you would stand by while someone took advantage of who you are responsible for ?
At church there was a great Christian guy but he would come up and hug and rub his hands up and down my wifes arms and back, I didn't think anything about it until I happened to make eye contact with her and she give me that ''help I'm very uncomfortable with this guy look'' .. What would you do and this is nothing in comparison to what we're talking about .. What if this guy was known to hit on others wives (he wasn't but) you can relate ..
 
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Point of order. I'm no Hebrew scholar and can't say what the word means from which "abomination" is translated, but in English it means something that is hated or detestable, not something that is "unnatural."The Bible calls many things abominations. Some Christians only seem to be stuck on this one.

I guess you are correct. English is a very poor translation.
  1. seafood that lacks fins and scales (Leviticus 11:10-12)
  2. all insects except for locust, crickets and grasshoppers (Leviticus 11:20-23, Leviticus 11:41)
  3. eagles, ossifrage, and the osprey (Leviticus 11:13)
other biblically unclean animals or touching certain things,(Leviticus 7:21
Every shepherd was "an abomination" unto the Egyptians (Genesis 46:34).
  1. Pharaoh was so moved by the fourth plague, that while he refused the demand of Moses, he offered a compromise, granting to the Israelites permission to hold their festival and offer their sacrifices in Egypt. This permission could not be accepted, because Moses said they would have to sacrifice "the abomination of the Egyptians" (Exodus 8:26); i.e., the cow or ox, which all the Egyptians held as sacred and so regarded as sacrilegious to kill.
  2. Proverbs 6:16-19
    lists seven things which are also abominations: "haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are swift in running to mischief, a false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."
  1. idolatry or idols (Deuteronomy 7:25, Deuteronomy 13:14, Isaiah 44:19)
  2. illicit sex (e.g prostitution, adultery, incest) (Ezekiel 16:22,58, Ezekiel 2:11, Ezekiel 33:26)
  3. illicit marriage (Deuteronomy 24:2-4)
  4. male prostitution and/or other male homosexual acts (see Homosexuality in the Hebrew Bible) (Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 18:27-30, Leviticus 20:13)
  5. temple prostitution (1Kings 14:24)
  6. offerings from the above (Deuteronomy 23:18)
  7. child sacrifice (Jeremiah 32:35)
  8. cross-dressing (Deuteronomy 22:5)
  9. cheating in the market by using rigged weights (Deuteronomy 25:13-19, Proverbs 11:1)
  10. dishonesty (Proverbs 12:22)
  11. dietary violations (Deuteronomy 14:3)
  12. stealing, murder, and adultery, breaking covenants (Jeremiah 7:9,10)
  13. usury, violent robbery, murder, oppressing the poor and needy, etc. (Ezekiel 18:10-13)
 
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