Forgiveness

[Johan Abrahams]

Jesus ask of us to forgive. . . .always.


Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.


Even our forgiveness from God relies on ours.

Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


And Jesus died.


And God forgive us now in a special way.

Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


It is now not the result anymore of our actions. It is not about how good we are anymore.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.



It is about what we believe the sacrifice is worth. It is worth so much in God’s opinion that we are not imputed sin anymore.


Or . . .this case is settled.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


It just depends how much worth you see in the sacrifice. Obviously if you have to add to it with your actions etc. then it is not worth so much and because of your imperfect actions your relationship will not be what it could have been.

And now what about our forgiveness.


It should be just the same. We do not impute sin anymore. No matter how many times people sin it is paid in Worthy blood . . .and we forgive.

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.


And Jesus . . . our Life . . .manifests. His Life He lives from out of our bodies . . .and we?


We are dead.


Love Johan

 

[Tolworth John]

We are always seeking to minimise what we spend/give and maximise what we recieve.

We are willing to recieve unlimited forgiveness from Jesus, but are not willing to forgive a fellow Christian who upsets or annoys us.

Just as Jesus forgives us our blatent sinning, so we should be willing to forgive anoth Christian if they ask for our forgiveness.

 

[Johan Abrahams]

We are always seeking to minimise what we spend/give and maximise what we recieve.

We are willing to recieve unlimited forgiveness from Jesus, but are not willing to forgive a fellow Christian who upsets or annoys us.

Just as Jesus forgives us our blatent sinning, so we should be willing to forgive anoth Christian if they ask for our forgiveness.

Hi brother . . . if you see . . .deeply in what I wrote then you will realize that God's forgiveness does not depend on our good behavior . . . having to ask for forgiveness. And just the same for us. Nobody needs to first ask of it. We can give it . . . and then we became graceful just as God. This is God's grace that we need to find for ourselves and give then it also.

This way . . the undeserving can experience God . . .which is so necessary for them. They need to live in undeserved Grace. Only if we can get revelation on the Life of God which He gives us in Jesus. As Jesus is God's Word given to us. By this Word God creates in us His Life. And by this Word we become living godly beings . . . living the Life of God on earth.

Love Johan

 

[Tolworth John]

Hi brother . . . if you see . . .deeply in what I wrote then you will realize that God's forgiveness does not depend on our good behavior . . . having to ask for forgiveness. And just the same for us. Nobody needs to first ask of it. We can give it . . . and then we became graceful just as God. This is God's grace that we need to find for ourselves and give then it also.

This way . . the undeserving can experience God . . .which is so necessary for them. They need to live in undeserved Grace. Only if we can get revelation on the Life of God which He gives us in Jesus. As Jesus is God's Word given to us. By this Word God creates in us His Life. And by this Word we become living godly beings . . . living the Life of God on earth.

Love Johan

Forgiveness from God is not dependant on good works, that is true, but forgiveness is dependant on our saying sorry/repenting to God.

Just as God does not forgive those who donot say sorry so wedo not have to forgive those who will not say sorry to us.

Yes one can offer forgiveness to anyone, but please remember that is voluntary.
We are told to copy Jesus and his forgiveness is conditional on repentance.

 

[Johan Abrahams]

Forgiveness from God is not dependant on good works, that is true, but forgiveness is dependant on our saying sorry/repenting to God.

You said that forgiveness is dependent on our actions.

Just as God does not forgive those who donot say sorry so wedo not have to forgive those who will not say sorry to us.

Nope . . .God's forgiveness are not dependent on our actions but on the sacrifice. Sins are paid. Only you need to get this revelation.

Yes one can offer forgiveness to anyone, but please remember that is voluntary.

Everyone's sins are paid. And therefor everyone is forgiven. This is grace.

We are told to copy Jesus and his forgiveness is conditional on repentance.

That was before the sacrifice.

Love Johan

 

[Tolworth John]

You said that forgiveness is dependent on our actions.



Nope . . .God's forgiveness are not dependent on our actions but on the sacrifice. Sins are paid. Only you need to get this revelation.



Everyone's sins are paid. And therefor everyone is forgiven. This is grace.



That was before the sacrifice.

Love Johan

Sorry Johan,
saying I am sorry is not a 'good work' but an admission of failure.

 

[Johan Abrahams]

Sorry Johan,
saying I am sorry is not a 'good work' but an admission of failure.

It is because those that say "sorry" is forgiven and those that doesn't say it . . .judged. Judged on your conduct. Not according to other verses which are stressing faith.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

But what is more important is that you are not growing out of sin which of course is there . . .waiting.

Dead to Sin, Alive to God
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Here it is mentioned that there is more to Christian life than sinning and saying "sorry". Here it is about rising out of that.

Love Johan

 

[Tolworth John]

It is because those that say "sorry" is forgiven and those that doesn't say it . . .judged. Judged on your conduct. Not according to other verses which are stressing faith.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

But what is more important is that you are not growing out of sin which of course is there . . .waiting.

Dead to Sin, Alive to God
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Here it is mentioned that there is more to Christian life than sinning and saying "sorry". Here it is about rising out of that.

Love Johan

The subject is 'Forgivenes' not Christian living, so I have only talked about forgiveness.

 

[Johan Abrahams]

The subject is 'Forgivenes' not Christian living, so I have only talked about forgiveness.

Yep. I am speaking about it too. Forgiveness is very much part of Christian Life. If we see it in the Light of God then we start living a Life of forgiveness which is God's Life. This is called Grace. Here we give forgiveness to those that do no deserve it. That is Grace. And in becoming graceful ourselves the unbelieving see Grace and can believe in it. And when they believe in it they also believe in the Word and it has the desired effect in the power of Jesus to redeem.

Sometimes we do not see how God mightily uses the wrong that people do to us. We can see the effect of it in Jesus on the cross. The wrong that we did to Him became our salvation. And now it is our turn to take up our cross. We should not think that our "afflictions" are less powerful because it is still the "afflictions of Christ". It is just in "my flesh".

Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Love Johan

 

[Hillsage]

Forgiveness from God is not dependant on good works, that is true, but forgiveness is dependant on our saying sorry/repenting to God.

Just as God does not forgive those who donot say sorry so wedo not have to forgive those who will not say sorry to us.

Yes one can offer forgiveness to anyone, but please remember that is voluntary.
We are told to copy Jesus and his forgiveness is conditional on repentance.

So what you are saying then, is that the soldiers that Jesus forgave from the cross, while they were murdering Him, really weren't forgiven? And when Stephen was being stoned to death and he told the Lord to not hold this sin against them, you're saying that the Lord did the opposite?

Maybe you could share a verse to counter these two I've mentioned. Because so far, having read all your posts, everything seems to just be your opinion.

 

[Ron Gurley]

OP: Q1: ..."Forgiveness"...


Peter's first spirit-led sermon on the miraculous day of Pentecostdoes not provide STEPS (1+2+3=6) to Salvation.Look ONLY at what Jesus said in a nearby thread!

Act 2:14, 36-38 (NASB)
But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them (crowds at Pentecost): ...
Act 2:36
“Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him BOTH Lord (God) and Christ (Divine Messiah)—this Jesus whom you crucified.” (The Gospel!)
Act 2:37
Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, (drawn by God, spirit-led BELIEF)
and said to Peter and the rest of the (11) apostles, “ Brethren, what shall we DO?” (to be like you)
Act 2:38
Peter said to THEM,
“Repent, (turn to God) and
each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ
(not in the name of John the Baptizer..baptism AFTER salvation)
FOR (as a symbol of salvation, BECAUSE OF) the forgiveness of your sins;
and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (be baptized into God the Holy Spirit)

"FOR" = Greek 1519 "eis" ~= into, unto, to, towards, for, among, (because of?) (in place of?)

FORGIVENESS / REMISSION ...Greek 859 - "aphesis'...release from bondage or imprisonment; forgiveness or pardon, of sins
(letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

Forgiveness of Sin / Sin(s) is ONE of the spiritual benefits of salvation!...(all NASB)

Matthew 26:28
for this is My blood of the (new) covenant,
which is poured out for many FOR forgiveness of sins.

Mark 14:24
And He said to them, “This is My blood of the (new) covenant, which is poured out FOR many.

Luke 22:20
And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying,
“This cup which is poured out FOR you is the NEW covenant IN My blood.

Luke 1:77
To give to His people the knowledge of salvation,
By (knowing) the forgiveness of their sins,

Act 5:31
“He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and (to grant) forgiveness of sins.

Act 10:43
“Of Him all the prophets bear witness that
through His name everyone who BELIEVES in Him
receives forgiveness of sins.”

Ephesians 1:7
IN Him, we have redemption THROUGH His blood,
the forgiveness of our trespasses,
according to the riches of His GRACE

Colosians 1:14
in whom we have redemption,
the forgiveness of sins.

Matthew 12: ...Jesus: The ONLY Unpardonable/Unforgivable Sin
30 He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.
31 “Therefore I say to you,
any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people,
but blasphemy against (God) the (Holy) Spirit shall not be forgiven.
32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him;
but whoever speaks against (God) the Holy Spirit,
it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

QUERY for Believers: How does one "blaspheme" against The Spiritual Person who permanently indwells you?

 

[Tolworth John]

So what you are saying then, is that the soldiers that Jesus forgave from the cross, while they were murdering Him, really weren't forgiven? And when Stephen was being stoned to death and he told the Lord to not hold this sin against them, you're saying that the Lord did the opposite?

Maybe you could share a verse to counter these two I've mentioned. Because so far, having read all your posts, everything seems to just be your opinion.

Both Jesus and Stephen prayed that their killers should be forgiven.
They were forgiving them, we have no knowledge of any of their killers ever repenting. We know that Saul who was a witness eventually repented.

 

[Tolworth John]

Yep. I am speaking about it too. Forgiveness is very much part of Christian Life. If we see it in the Light of God then we start living a Life of forgiveness which is God's Life. This is called Grace. Here we give forgiveness to those that do no deserve it. That is Grace. And in becoming graceful ourselves the unbelieving see Grace and can believe in it. And when they believe in it they also believe in the Word and it has the desired effect in the power of Jesus to redeem.

Sometimes we do not see how God mightily uses the wrong that people do to us. We can see the effect of it in Jesus on the cross. The wrong that we did to Him became our salvation. And now it is our turn to take up our cross. We should not think that our "afflictions" are less powerful because it is still the "afflictions of Christ". It is just in "my flesh".

Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Love Johan

Our example is that of Jesus.
Apart from his prayer for his exceutioners there is no evidence that Jesus forgives those who do not repent.

There is almost a fashion for Chjristians who have been publickly hurt, saying they forgive their unknown assailent.
While it is generous of them it also puts strain on the faith of those hurting Christians who cannot bring themselves to forgive someone who has not said sorry.

Yes we need to pray for those who hurt us, pray that we might have the grace to forgive, but there is no biblical requirement to offer a blanket forgiveness to those who donot say sorry.

 

[Hillsage]

Both Jesus and Stephen prayed that their killers should be forgiven.
They were forgiving them, we have no knowledge of any of their killers ever repenting. We know that Saul who was a witness eventually repented.

But they didn't pray, 'Father forgive them if they repent'. God didn't need their advice concerning forgiveness, Jesus has already told us how it works.

I asked for 'scripture' from you supporting your opinion, and you've given more opinion. I have opinion... plus scripture. And here's one supporting what I just said; So if you don't have any scripture, please deal with mine. And explain how they fit in your theology belief box.

JOH 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

That Jesus forgave sins before the cross is simply undebatable.

MAT 9:5, 6 For which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Rise and walk'? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

MAR 2:5 And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "My son, your sins are forgiven."

No mention of being sorry or repentance, in either verse above....just "faith".

 

[Ron Gurley]

Mark 1:4 (SEE ALSO: Luke 3:3)
John the Baptist (Baptizer) appeared in the wilderness preaching a "baptism of repentance" "FOR" the "forgiveness of sins."

Matthew 3:11...JOHN the Baptizer
“As for me, I (symbolicallY) baptize you with water FOR repentance, but He (Jesus) who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will (spiritually) baptize you with (into) (God) the Holy Spirit and "fire".(symbolic for spirit)

Luke 3:16
John (the Baptizer) answered and said to them all,
“As for me, I (symbolically) baptize you with water;
but One is coming who is mightier than I, and
I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals;
He will (spiritually) baptize you with (into) (God) the Holy Spirit and "fire".

SEE: 1 Cor. 12:13 !!

Luke 24:47...Risen Jesus to His 11 apostles
and that repentance FOR (and?because of?) forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

"for"...Greek 1519...eis...I.into, unto, to, towards...among (because of?)

Acts 2:38...Peter's First Sermon at the miracle of Pentecost
Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be (spiritually) baptized in the name of Jesus Christ FOR (and?because of?) the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift(s) of (God) the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:31
He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and (to grant believers)) forgiveness of sins.

"Forgiveness of sins" for BELIEVERS is major benefit of salvation. 1 John 1

"REPENT/REPENTANCE" as a separate work by Man on his own is a false pre-requisite to:
A: "salvation"
B: "forgiveness of sins"

"Repent",...Greek 3340...metanoeo...to change one's mind / to change one's mind for the better; heartily to amend with abhorrence one's past sins

"Repentance" (metanoia, = 'change of mind') involves a turning with contrition from sin to God;
the repentant sinner is in the proper condition to ACCEPT SALVATION.

To Me, repent simply means: RE-THINK...spiritually turning TO God and AWAY FROM self when He calls / draws you.

 

[Johan Abrahams]

Our example is that of Jesus.
Apart from his prayer for his exceutioners there is no evidence that Jesus forgives those who do not repent.

"Apart" is saying that you know that giving grace was part of Jesus.

There is almost a fashion for Chjristians who have been publickly hurt, saying they forgive their unknown assailent.

Yep . . .and they will have their punishment for lying. Afterwards they still hurt.

While it is generous of them it also puts strain on the faith of those hurting Christians who cannot bring themselves to forgive someone who has not said sorry.

At least they are honest and will find true forgiveness if the look for it. But as you can see in this case. They will "hurt" until grace is found. Grace is forgiveness given to anyone. Even those killng you as Jesus did. Here lies true freedom from the sin of the world against you.

[Merged] A God of Love / The Living God - International Skeptics Forum

Yes we need to pray for those who hurt us, pray that we might have the grace to forgive, but there is no biblical requirement to offer a blanket forgiveness to those who donot say sorry.

There is no requirement to become a child of God but to believe in Jesus.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For spiritual growth we need to believe in more of Jesus.

1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

So we do not need grace to be a child of God. Grace is only for those that want more.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Children need to realize that they need to grow up. Everything of God is in Jesus and everything of Jesus is for us.


Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

 

[Tolworth John]

and they will have their punishment for lying.

Who has said that they are lying?

 

[Johan Abrahams]

Who has said that they are lying?

The spirit of "hurt".