Forgiveness

TamaraLynne

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I'm leaning on the teaching of forgiveness the way it is done in the Catholic church but I would like to know more as far as the qualifications of the priest and why he is the only one to forgive...and why would forgiveness be withheld? under what circumstances?
In other denominations I keep hearing that when we forgive someone who has hurt us that they still have their sin but somehow we are released ...in other words our sins will be forgiven by God but the one who trespassed against us still retains their sin...is this true? Because it seems selfish and not a loving gesture at all towards another. Is it a sin to withhold forgiveness towards another if they are not sorry and plan on hurting again and again?

When Jesus forgave others sins and as a result they were healed...is this also something the Catholic church practices?

When God resides in us then when we forgive is it not God himself in us that does the forgiving of others who have trespassed against us?

Just want to understand more...

I know that when we hear the message of Jesus and believe then our sins are forgiven and we have baptism of Water and Holy Spirit...but in the Lords prayer forgiveness is huge and if we forgive others then should it not be the same as God forgiving us? Is there anything in the bible that speaks of others sins not truly being forgiven when someone has forgave them?

Please...keep it simple because I'm not extremely educated in the Catholic language :angel: Sorry I asked a lot of questions and I'm pretty sure if given more time I could come up with more questions but I will stop here...I hope I can ask these questions here...if not then please forgive me :prayer:
 

Rhamiel

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well Jesus tells us to forgive others
When God resides in us then when we forgive is it not God himself in us that does the forgiving of others who have trespassed against us?
well all of our good works are done through the grace of Christ, so forgiveness and any act of charity or justice is God acting in us.

God is soverigne, He can forgive who He chooses to forgive
so if someone is unable to go a priest but is honest in their repentance, we have a hope that God will forgive them (do not make the word "hope" make it seem like a weak thing, Catholics tend to use the word hope more because God is soverigne and we do not want to presume, hope in the goodness of the Lord is a powerful thing, it is not the silly wishful thing that some people use the word hope for)

We are called to forgive others, but that effects us, it does not really effect them

now, confession to a priest is for several differant reasons
1, Jesus told us to do that. John 20:21-23 is the catholic "go to verse" for this teaching. But there are a lot of other verses in the Old and New testaments that would support this.

2, The priest, acting in the person of Christ, has the authority to forgive sins

there is a story of a person who liked to gossip, she confessed this sin to her priest, and for penance she had to take a feather pillow and throw the feathers all over the city, after she did this she went back to her priest, "ok, what should I do now?" and the priest told her to try to go and collect all of the feathers agian, she said "that is impossible, I have no idea where the wind blew them all!" and the priest responded that it is the same for the harm done by gossip, you have no idea where such evil talk will go.
It is really the same with all sins, we do not really know what harm our sins will do, who all will be hurt by them
so in a why, the Priest also represents the Church as a whole, he is a person, so in a way he represents all of us, everyone who is hurt by our sins

now the Church also teaches that whenever possible we should seek to make amends with the person who we directly wronged, but this is not always possible
 
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Root of Jesse

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I'm leaning on the teaching of forgiveness the way it is done in the Catholic church but I would like to know more as far as the qualifications of the priest and why he is the only one to forgive...and why would forgiveness be withheld? under what circumstances?
Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to Forgive Sins
John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, "as the Father sent me, so I send you." As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins.

John 20:22 - the Lord "breathes" on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord "breathes" divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place. John 20:23 - Jesus says, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained." In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

When a priest hears confession, he hears the sinner in the person of Christ, and it is Christ who forgives the sin. The person only needs to be sorry for what sin he committed, and have a firm purpose to not commit it again. In other words, you can't be having an adulterous affair, go to confession, and still carry on the affair.
In other denominations I keep hearing that when we forgive someone who has hurt us that they still have their sin but somehow we are released ...in other words our sins will be forgiven by God but the one who trespassed against us still retains their sin...is this true? Because it seems selfish and not a loving gesture at all towards another. Is it a sin to withhold forgiveness towards another if they are not sorry and plan on hurting again and again?
Jesus says we're to forgive our enemy endlessly (70 X 7 times). I think it helps to forgive someone if they admit their mistake, but that's not required, according to Jesus. You suffering through someone's abuse is reparitive to your own sins. We say "Offer up your pain and suffering to God", and let him use your witness to help someone else. Retaliation is never good.
When Jesus forgave others sins and as a result they were healed...is this also something the Catholic church practices?
Absolutely. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is also called the Sacrament of Healing.
When God resides in us then when we forgive is it not God himself in us that does the forgiving of others who have trespassed against us?
Whatever we do, it's God working in us. God even takes horrific acts of evil and turns them to good.
Just want to understand more...

I know that when we hear the message of Jesus and believe then our sins are forgiven and we have baptism of Water and Holy Spirit...but in the Lords prayer forgiveness is huge and if we forgive others then should it not be the same as God forgiving us? Is there anything in the bible that speaks of others sins not truly being forgiven when someone has forgave them?
God is always willing to forgive, it's for us to ask for it. And all we have to do is ask God, be sorry, and promise not to do it again (even in a case where we stumble and fall again) Remember there's a parable of one who sinned his whole life, and repented at the end, and was forgiven, but one who was good his whole life and turned to evil was not.
The thief on the cross comes to mind.
Please...keep it simple because I'm not extremely educated in the Catholic language :angel: Sorry I asked a lot of questions and I'm pretty sure if given more time I could come up with more questions but I will stop here...I hope I can ask these questions here...if not then please forgive me :prayer:
Questions are always good, TamaraLynne, especially when asked with an interest in knowing what we believe.
 
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TamaraLynne

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well Jesus tells us to forgive others

well all of our good works are done through the grace of Christ, so forgiveness and any act of charity or justice is God acting in us.

God is soverigne, He can forgive who He chooses to forgive
so if someone is unable to go a priest but is honest in their repentance, we have a hope that God will forgive them (do not make the word "hope" make it seem like a weak thing, Catholics tend to use the word hope more because God is soverigne and we do not want to presume, hope in the goodness of the Lord is a powerful thing, it is not the silly wishful thing that some people use the word hope for)

We are called to forgive others, but that effects us, it does not really effect them

now, confession to a priest is for several differant reasons
1, Jesus told us to do that. John 20:21-23 is the catholic "go to verse" for this teaching. But there are a lot of other verses in the Old and New testaments that would support this.

2, The priest, acting in the person of Christ, has the authority to forgive sins

there is a story of a person who liked to gossip, she confessed this sin to her priest, and for penance she had to take a feather pillow and throw the feathers all over the city, after she did this she went back to her priest, "ok, what should I do now?" and the priest told her to try to go and collect all of the feathers agian, she said "that is impossible, I have no idea where the wind blew them all!" and the priest responded that it is the same for the harm done by gossip, you have no idea where such evil talk will go.
It is really the same with all sins, we do not really know what harm our sins will do, who all will be hurt by them
so in a why, the Priest also represents the Church as a whole, he is a person, so in a way he represents all of us, everyone who is hurt by our sins

now the Church also teaches that whenever possible we should seek to make amends with the person who we directly wronged, but this is not always possible

Thank you Rhamiel :) I was hoping you would respond :)

I will meditate on the things you have said and yes any scripture from the bible on forgiveness and the Catholic view is appreciated.

So the priest in some way after someone repents of gossip becomes a prayer warrior on the hurt that was spread? If someone repents of murder then the priest would pray restoration or peace for the loved ones? So it involves much more then forgiving them ?

When I went into the confession booth as a child I made up a sin because I could not think of a sin..so making up a sin was actually a sin..the priest told me to say so many Hail Marys and Our Fathers but I was in grade school and really did not understand things.

I think forgiveness is huge and yes of course repentance...
 
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TamaraLynne

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Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to Forgive Sins
John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, "as the Father sent me, so I send you." As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins.

John 20:22 - the Lord "breathes" on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord "breathes" divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place. John 20:23 - Jesus says, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained." In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

When a priest hears confession, he hears the sinner in the person of Christ, and it is Christ who forgives the sin. The person only needs to be sorry for what sin he committed, and have a firm purpose to not commit it again. In other words, you can't be having an adulterous affair, go to confession, and still carry on the affair.
Jesus says we're to forgive our enemy endlessly (70 X 7 times). I think it helps to forgive someone if they admit their mistake, but that's not required, according to Jesus. You suffering through someone's abuse is reparitive to your own sins. We say "Offer up your pain and suffering to God", and let him use your witness to help someone else. Retaliation is never good.
Absolutely. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is also called the Sacrament of Healing.

Whatever we do, it's God working in us. God even takes horrific acts of evil and turns them to good.
God is always willing to forgive, it's for us to ask for it. And all we have to do is ask God, be sorry, and promise not to do it again (even in a case where we stumble and fall again) Remember there's a parable of one who sinned his whole life, and repented at the end, and was forgiven, but one who was good his whole life and turned to evil was not.
The thief on the cross comes to mind.

Questions are always good, TamaraLynne, especially when asked with an interest in knowing what we believe.

Thank you :angel:
 
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Rhamiel

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So the priest in some way after someone repents of gossip becomes a prayer warrior on the hurt that was spread? If someone repents of murder then the priest would pray restoration or peace for the loved ones? So it involves much more then forgiving them ?
well this goes back to the idea that we should, whenever possible, try to make amends for our sin
fix what we have broken

all sin offends God, who is all good, all holy
so only the death of Jesus could cover the cost of our sins
He paid that price for us.
but there are still lesser ways on how to fix this
like if we break a window, we should replace that window

the lesson the priest was trying to teach the woman who gossiped is that sin is not as simple as a broken window
we do not know all that happens as a result of our sins
only God knows
so since we can not say "sorry" to all 7 billion people on earth, we confess to a priest, who in a way, represents all humanity, in so much as he is a human and thus part of the "offended party"
he also represents God as shown by the Bible verses that have allready been posted.

I dunno, the human part is kind of my own view on confession, I do not want to get you mixed up and have you think I am more officail then I am

also, saying prayers or little acts of mercy and charity are offten given as penance, the feather pillow thing was an odd example but it helped show my point, that is not really the norm
 
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Root of Jesse

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Thank you Rhamiel :) I was hoping you would respond :)

I will meditate on the things you have said and yes any scripture from the bible on forgiveness and the Catholic view is appreciated.

So the priest in some way after someone repents of gossip becomes a prayer warrior on the hurt that was spread? If someone repents of murder then the priest would pray restoration or peace for the loved ones? So it involves much more then forgiving them ?

When I went into the confession booth as a child I made up a sin because I could not think of a sin..so making up a sin was actually a sin..the priest told me to say so many Hail Marys and Our Fathers but I was in grade school and really did not understand things.

I think forgiveness is huge and yes of course repentance...

Forgiveness actually involves the priest forgetting. In fact, if you went to a priest, he probably couldn't tell you what you confessed an hour ago. But they do pray for those (in general) who come into the confessional. IT's sort of a spiritual carwash.

As a child, you wouldn't think of this, but I believe that, on a daily basis, we sin against the first commandment, every one of us. There's no way we can love God as much as he deserves...:)
 
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TamaraLynne

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Seriously!!! :) Odd you say!!! :)

I'm a mom of eight children and the feather pillow thing is exactly my language. That is the area my brain goes to is comparisons ...like feathers = gossip.

In another thread I was so bold to compare ourselve as paper towels and God was water :) to try to explain what I know.. :)
 
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TamaraLynne

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Forgiveness actually involves the priest forgetting. In fact, if you went to a priest, he probably couldn't tell you what you confessed an hour ago. But they do pray for those (in general) who come into the confessional. IT's sort of a spiritual carwash.

As a child, you wouldn't think of this, but I believe that, on a daily basis, we sin against the first commandment, every one of us. There's no way we can love God as much as he deserves...:)

This verse came to mind when you said how there is no way to love God as much as he deserves


Lu 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
 
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Root of Jesse

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This verse came to mind when you said how there is no way to love God as much as he deserves


Lu 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
Preach it, Sister!
 
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Root of Jesse

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:blush: I'm to shy to preach...but I can share my thoughts :blush:
Legend has it that St. Francis of Assisi invited a brother to walk into town to preach one time. They walked into town, walked around the square three times, and went back home. The brother asked Francis "I thought we were going to preach?" Francis replied "We just did."

He's also said to have said "Preach the gospel, and where necessary, use words". He didn't say that, really, but the point is still valid.

God bless.
 
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TamaraLynne

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Legend has it that St. Francis of Assisi invited a brother to walk into town to preach one time. They walked into town, walked around the square three times, and went back home. The brother asked Francis "I thought we were going to preach?" Francis replied "We just did."

He's also said to have said "Preach the gospel, and where necessary, use words". He didn't say that, really, but the point is still valid.

God bless.
Maybe in his steps he was claiming the area for God :)
 
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StevenMerten

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Hello Tamara,

I remember when Pope John Paul II was shot. My friend told me that three days later Pope John Paul II went to the prison to forgive his attempted assassin. I was confused and asked my friend why the Pope did not have the man over to the Vatican for diner to forgive the man. My friend exclaimed, 'He forgave the man! He did not let him out of prison!' Even today I hear homilies mention how great Pope John Paul II was for forgiving his attempted assassin. It is kind of confusing when the forgiven man spent 19 years in prison for trespassing against Pope John Paul II and Pope John Paul II receives decades of world glorification for forgiving him.

I think it is clear, from what Pope John Paul II taught with his actions, that just because you forgive someone does not mean that those who harm you are now, not brought to justice, get a get out of jail free card, or now can go to heaven in a state of unrepentance.

Many priests of today teach in their homilies that you forgive those who harm you, for your own healing, and not for the benefit of the one who harmed you or your family.
 
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TamaraLynne

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Hello Tamara,

I remember when Pope John Paul II was shot. My friend told me that three days later Pope John Paul II went to the prison to forgive his attempted assassin. I was confused and asked my friend why the Pope did not have the man over to the Vatican for diner to forgive the man. My friend exclaimed, 'He forgave the man! He did not let him out of prison!' Even today I hear homilies mention how great Pope John Paul II was for forgiving his attempted assassin. It is kind of confusing when the forgiven man spent 19 years in prison for trespassing against Pope John Paul II and Pope John Paul II receives decades of world glorification for forgiving him.

I think it is clear, from what Pope John Paul II taught with his actions, that just because you forgive someone does not mean that those who harm you are now, not brought to justice, get a get out of jail free card, or now can go to heaven in a state of unrepentance.

Many priests of today teach in their homilies that you forgive those who harm you, for your own healing, and not for the benefit of the one who harmed you or your family.

Thank you...because I have had a time where it has been hard to picture forgiveness for those who hurt me...but what if it is just gossip or feathers they spread against me? I know that I do not want revenge and I want no hurt to come to them...but I do want restoration...they might not spend time in prison for gossip but in my mind I think about the Holy Spirit being more powerful and the enemy having no foot hold against my enemies....so that victory against the enemy is accomplished...in other words satan is defeated and my enemy(gossiper) is protected against the powers of darkness...that way they are set apart? because of my prayers for them?

But even more ...if I forgive someone who has not sinned against me...where is that in scripture?
 
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TamaraLynne

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Revenge is mine says the Lord our God....God punished Cain and said no man will punish more and the mark was put upon Cain to show that no one was to punish him more...then we have Lamech who had the sacrifice like Abels and he murdered...but no punishment followed..then it goes right into the birth of seth
So....in the new covenant does that still apply? In the old covenant only God could forgive sins...but in the new Jesus shows us that man also will have the power to forgive sins...

I don't know these thoughts just seem to float around all the time...all the time...why?
 
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TamaraLynne

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Why do most take the rich man who could not give up his wealth in such a literal way when clearly it explains rich and poor in a spiritual way but when something that is what I consider a literal kind of meaning it gets twisted into something that .....is spiritual that in the end is explained in a literal sense? Like when Jesus told the woman her sins were forgiven....we go back to the cross and baptism...but when you look at the astonishment of others that God had given us the power to forgive...which we all know that the power is not ours but Gods....why did it get twisted into a repentance thing and salvation thing....clearly Jesus let us know we could forgive the sins of others...clearly this is shown...

I don't know....


there is not one....

single person...or denomination...that understands where my thoughts are...

or how to correct my thoughts... :(
 
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Why do most take the rich man who could not give up his wealth in such a literal way when clearly it explains rich and poor in a spiritual way but when something that is what I consider a literal kind of meaning it gets twisted into something that .....is spiritual that in the end is explained in a literal sense? Like when Jesus told the woman her sins were forgiven....we go back to the cross and baptism...but when you look at the astonishment of others that God had given us the power to forgive...which we all know that the power is not ours but Gods....why did it get twisted into a repentance thing and salvation thing....clearly Jesus let us know we could forgive the sins of others...clearly this is shown...

I don't know....


there is not one....

single person...or denomination...that understands where my thoughts are...

or how to correct my thoughts... :(

Your thoughts don't need correcting. They are very beautiful. :wave:

In my view there are several layers of forgiveness open to us.

The first is to forgive someone, freely and without reserve, without them asking for forgiveness. This one is easy, and would tend to be for minor issues; those which irritate but do not really harm us.

The second is to wait until someone asks us to forgive them, and then deciding to do so, even though it is painful to us to do this. They may have hurt us in a significant way, and the pain may remain with us forever, but we choose not to hold this against that person; we leave it to God to decide what is appropriate and what is not. This does not mean that they are not subject to legal process, though. If they have caused harm to us, they must be held to account for that, in order to prevent them doing the same thing again. The person who shot the Pope could be forgiven, but could not escape justice.

The third level of forgiveness is the hardest of all. We forgive those who have hurt us, and we ask God to forgive them for this sin as well. This is the example the Lord gives us from the cross; he does not just forgive them himself, he asks God to forgive them as well. This is the example we are given; this is the one we have to aim for.

The best place for this third level of forgiveness is the confessional; to confess our own sins and to ask God to forgive those who have sinned against us. They will have plenty of other sins left to their name, but we can ask him to remove those committed against us.
 
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