For Whom Did Jesus Christ Die?

[TheBibleIsTruth]

"feel good" today, die condemned tomorrow ..... hmmm....
The false gospel leads to eternal condemnation and shame only.

The truth if anyone seeks it can set them free from eternal condemnation,
by
faith and grace in Christ Jesus.

they are sadly blinded by the LIES they believe in!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

they are sadly blinded by the LIES they believe in!

Yes, that's true of the whole world in the flesh, outside of Christ,
as YHWH says in EPHESIANS 2, "sons of disobedience" ....
the lies are growing.... the evil is growing.... the people won't repent of worshiping demons..... so they die forever, never to live again,
never ever to see heaven.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

Yes, that's true of the whole world in the flesh, outside of Christ,
as YHWH says in EPHESIANS 2, "sons of disobedience" ....
the lies are growing.... the evil is growing.... the people won't repent of worshiping demons..... so they die forever, never to live again,
never ever to see heaven.

it is our duty to warn them in love...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

it is our duty to warn them in love...

Who said otherwise ?
Remember also open rebuke is better than hidden love.

Letting them lose their chance for eternal life without warning them is worse than speaking out boldly rebuking the false gospel.

 

[Ron Gurley]

OP: Q: For Whom Did Jesus Christ Die?
a. all spiritually born again from above (John 3)
b. all who spiritually accept His call/draw
c. "the elect"(eklektos)...the few chosen by God without regard to Man's action.
d. other?

A: Understand Scripture supporting "substitutionary atonement".

" Substitutionary Atonement "...What is it ??

" Substitutionary Atonement "...a preamble!

1. The TRI-UNE God created Mankind in THEIR own spritual image.

2. "Natural Man", beginning with A&E, has an innate "sin nature"...
to be disobedient, self / world centered, and with a tendancy to turn from God.

3. God has given Man (and angels) the spiritual gift of "Free Will" to spiritually accept or reject Him
and His gracious provisions for salvation when called / drawn by the Spirit.

4. God is perfectly Loving/Merciful/full of Grace. AND He is also perfectly JUST.
He loves all sinners. AND He hates all sin.

5. Sinful Man on his own cannot work his way to heaven and be acceptable to a perfect sinless God. A sin barrier exists.
Man needs a Savior to act on his behalf to reconcile himself to God

6. Jesus the God-Man had a DUAL NATURE:
True Man: the sinless New Adam.
True Deity: Divinity poured out into a miraculous Body without loss or change of Deity.

7. Jesus the Divine Messiah voluntarily bled to death on a cruel, unjust Cross.
Jesus the God-Man voluntarily substituted Himself FOR all sins FOR all Men FOR all time.
His miraculous birth, ministry, death, resurrection, appearances, and ascension
RECONCILED Man to God. (at-one-ment)

8. The New Covenant: The blood of Jesus covers the sin of man.
We believers are longer under condemnation.
We believers are FORGIVEN of our SINS.

PLEASE DISCUSS (with supporting copy + paste Scripture) Your VIEWS on any or all of the above.

AND NOW: " Substitutionary Atonement "

Substitution = e.g. "hyper" / ...Jesus died FOR you...in your place

2 Corinthians 5:21,
"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin "on our behalf",
that we might become the righteousness of God IN Him." (Imputed Righteousness!)

Romans 6:10
For the death that He died, He died to sin once FOR all;
but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

1 Peter 3:18 -
"For Christ also died FOR sins once FOR all,
the righteous (Jesus) FOR the unrighteous (Man),
that he might bring us to God" (reconciliation)

1 Peter 2 (NASB)
21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered FOR you,
leaving you an example FOR you to follow in His steps,
22 (Jesus who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth;
23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return;
while suffering, He uttered no threats,
but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;
24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross,
so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness;
FOR by His wounds you were healed.
25 For you were continually straying like sheep,
but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

Atonement = basic meaning of RECONCILIATION....work of redemption on behalf of ...

"Atonement" = at-ONE-ment = spiritual reconciliation and other benefits of salvation...
...some spiritual act that "pays for" / redeems Man from his sin nature / sin / sin(s)
...the penalty due to Man's sins are avoided
...action decreed by God for the re-establishment of a positive relationship
between Man (the sinner) and Himself (the holy God).

The OT is replete with a myriad of ritual laws to cover the sins of Israel.
The word Atonement is used only ONCE in the KJV of the NT.

Romans 5:11 KJV
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
by whom we have now received the atonement.

the atonement. ...Greek 2643....katallage....adjustment of a difference, RECONCILIATION, restoration to favour

Romans 5: 6-11 (NASB)
For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died FOR the ungodly.
For one will hardly die for a righteous man;
though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died FOR us.Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved (sanctified) by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Leviticus 16:34
Now you shall have this as a permanent statute, (Mosaic Law)
to make atonement for the sons of Israel for all their sins once every year.”
And just as the Lord had commanded Moses, so he did.

Hebrews 7:27
who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices,
first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people,
because this He did once FOR all when He offered up Himself.

Hebrews 9:12
and not through the blood of goats and calves, but THROUGH His own blood,
He entered the holy place once FOR all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Hebrews 10:10
By this will we have been sanctified
through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once FOR all.

See also: PROPITIATION ...

New Testament Greek:
G2435 hilasterion (he-lä-sta'-re-on) =~ propitiation, "mercy seat"

...“The word propitiation carries the basic idea of appeasement, or satisfaction, specifically towards God.
Propitiation is a two-part act that involves
appeasing the wrath of an offended person and
being reconciled to them.”
Propitiation is that:
“by which it becomes consistent with his character and government to pardon and bless the sinner.
The propitiation does not procure his love or make him loving; (God is ALSO perfectly LOVING and MERCIFUL!)
it only renders it consistent for him to exercise his love towards sinners...

1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God,
but that He loved us and
sent His Son to be the propitiation FOR our sins.

Hebrews 2:17
Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things,
so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God,
to make propitiation FOR the sins of the people.

The BLOOD of Jesus:

Ephesians 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus
you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Hebrews 10:19
Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence
to enter the holy place (presence of God) by the blood of Jesus,

Hebrews 12:24
and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant,
and to the (His) sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Hebrews 13:20
Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead
the great Shepherd of the sheep
through the blood of the eternal covenant,
even Jesus our Lord,

1 Peter 1:2 ...a peek a the TRI-UNE GOD?
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
by the sanctifying work of (God) the (Holy) Spirit,
to obey (God the Son) Jesus Christ
and be sprinkled with His blood:
May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

1 John 1:7
but if we (believers) walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light,
we have fellowship with one another, and
the blood of Jesus His Son CLEANSES (washes away) us from all sin.

Revelation 1:5
and from Jesus Christ,
the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—

 

[Neostarwcc]

Of course Jesus died for His sheep, but He also died for the whole world.
1 John 2:2 And He is the propitiation for our sins (His sheep) and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
Now you will probably say "Whole world" refers to various nations where the elect are.
But I think we should look into the same book to see the meaning instead of going to a different book.

5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Jesus died for everybody, even those lying in wickedness.

Something I don't understand but if Jesus died for the sins of the whole world then why do people go to hell? If Jesus died for the whole world wouldn't nobody go to hell? Yet the bible is clear if you don't believe in Jesus you will go to hell. Hell is for those who reject Jesus and disobey God. John says this in John 3:17 when he said "those who don't believe stand condemned already". You're right that John said that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world but how can that be? When the whole world isn't saved. Only Jesus´s sheep are. Therefore Jesus died for his sheep right?

 

[Doug Melven]

Something I don't understand but if Jesus died for the sins of the whole world then why do people go to hell? If Jesus died for the whole world wouldn't nobody go to hell? Yet the bible is clear if you don't believe in Jesus you will go to hell. Hell is for those who reject Jesus and disobey God. John says this in John 3:17 when he said "those who don't believe stand condemned already". You're right that John said that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world but how can that be? When the whole world isn't saved. Only Jesus´s sheep are. Therefore Jesus died for his sheep right?

For God so loved the world (that would be everybody) that He gave His only begotten Son (Jesus dying for the world) that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Just because Jesus died for someone does not mean they are automatically saved.

 

[shakewell]

Something I don't understand but if Jesus died for the sins of the whole world then why do people go to hell? If Jesus died for the whole world wouldn't nobody go to hell? Yet the bible is clear if you don't believe in Jesus you will go to hell. Hell is for those who reject Jesus and disobey God. John says this in John 3:17 when he said "those who don't believe stand condemned already". You're right that John said that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world but how can that be? When the whole world isn't saved. Only Jesus´s sheep are. Therefore Jesus died for his sheep right?

Jesus died for the whole world, but His dying for the whole world never saved anyone. Each individual for whom He died must receive Him as their Saviour in order to be saved.

 

[Neostarwcc]

For God so loved the world (that would be everybody) that He gave His only begotten Son (Jesus dying for the world) that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Just because Jesus died for someone does not mean they are automatically saved.

Right, only Jesus's Sheep (those who God foreknew would come to Jesus for salvation and would believe in Christ) are saved. But how can God die for the sins of the whole world yet only save the elect? That's what I don't understand. If it's true that Jesus died for the whole world why are only Jesus's sheep saved? Like for example, let's say I don't believe in Jesus. I never went to Jesus asking for his forgiveness and I spend my whole life blaspheming his name and living like the devil. My sins are covered? If my sins would be covered why would I go to hell? Because I don't believe in Jesus and spent my life blaspheming his name? I mean, if my sins are covered there should be no reason I go to hell. To say that Jesus died for the whole world is like saying the whole world is saved. But yet, the bible says that they're not.

 

[Doug Melven]

Right, only Jesus's Sheep (those who God foreknew would come to Jesus for salvation and would believe in Christ) are saved. But how can God die for the sins of the whole world yet only save the elect? That's what I don't understand. If it's true that Jesus died for the whole world why are only Jesus's sheep saved? Like for example, let's say I don't believe in Jesus. I never went to Jesus asking for his forgiveness and I spend my whole life blaspheming his name and living like the devil. My sins are covered? If my sins would be covered why would I go to hell? Because I don't believe in Jesus and spent my life blaspheming his name? I mean, if my sins are covered there should be no reason I go to hell. To say that Jesus died for the whole world is like saying the whole world is saved. But yet, the bible says that they're not.

God's gift is extended to all, so Jesus had to die for all so it could be extended to all.
But, only those who receive God's Gift are saved.

 

[Neostarwcc]

God's gift is extended to all, so Jesus had to die for all so it could be extended to all.
But, only those who receive God's Gift are saved.

I think I see what you're saying. But it makes more sense thinking that he only died for his sheep that way he died for the sins of people who he knew were going to be saved anyway. And John 10 goes into extreme detail about how he laid down his life for his sheep and that the jews he was talking to didn't believe because they weren't his sheep. God died so that his sheep could be saved not the whole world yet at the same time, he desired that the whole world be saved it's just that the whole world won't come to Jesus for salvation. It is kinda confusing.

 

[Doug Melven]

I think I see what you're saying. But it makes more sense thinking that he only died for his sheep that way he died for the sins of people who he knew were going to be saved anyway. And John 10 goes into extreme detail about how he laid down his life for his sheep and that the jews he was talking to didn't believe because they weren't his sheep. God died so that his sheep could be saved not the whole world yet at the same time, he desired that the whole world be saved it's just that the whole world won't come to Jesus for salvation. It is kinda confusing.

The problem I see in only dying for the elect means that He intentionally chose some not to be saved.
There are way to many Scriptures that say He wants all to be saved. God would not contradict His Word.

 

[bling]

For starters, it was Jesus' first recorded words in Mark's Gospel, "repent and believe in the Gospel" (1:15), which shows that "belief" itself can never save anyone. The devil "believes", and will never get to heaven! At the end of His Ministry, Luke records Jesus as saying, "and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem" (24:47). Acts 2:38, Peter tells those convicted by the Holy Spirit, "REPENT". This is a pre-requisite for ALL sinners BEFORE they can ever be saved. A great example if Jonah, who was told to take the Gospel to the people of Nineveh, one of the most wicked places on earth at the time. When they finally heard the message, we read, " The word reached the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, removed his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. And he issued a proclamation and published through Nineveh, “By the decree of the king and his nobles: Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything. Let them not feed or drink water, but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and let them call out mightily to God. Let everyone turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands (true repentance). Who knows? God may turn and relent and turn from his fierce anger, so that we may not perish.” (3:6-9). How did God respond? We read on, "When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way (repented), God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it." (3:10)

First off: I do not feel I explained myself well. I did say: “The true “believer” will repent…” which to me would say: “if you do not repent you do not have a saving faith and will not be saved”.

Repenting is a turning from going or thinking one way to thinking or going another way, but how does repentance relate to the atonement sacrifice of Christ. I see the biblical best example given on Pentecost Acts 2. The people Peter is preaching to thought/believed they had done the right thing in following the religious leaders by crucifying Christ. When they came to believe they had tortured, humiliated and murdered the Messiah their belief/thinking changed. That change in their belief resulted in them going from a good feeling about following the religious leaders to the worst possible feeling they could experience in knowing they just crucified the Messiah which caused them to experience a death blow to their heart Acts 2:37. Peter tells them “you crucified the Messiah” and 3000 believed that and were baptized, but not all would have believed and so not all would be baptized (repent). The repentance and baptism was dependent on their belief.

What I am saying is the nonbeliever has to by-in/accept/believe the fact Christ/Messiah was tortured, humiliated and murdered, because of what the nonbeliever did (sinned) and thus be cut to the heart. That acceptance of the fact of the crucifixion is acceptance of the ransom payment by the nonbeliever (the criminal/the kidnapper) this will allow the child the nonbeliever to enter the kingdom.

As far as using Jonah: the book of Jonah is following Jonah and not Nineveh which is the back drop to the story of Jonah. We do not know what the people of Nineveh where taught by prophets before Jonah and specifically about a coming prophet (Jonah) and really we do not need to know, but they did believe something about God to make this change.

The “repentance” topic was more of a side note to the questions and topic we are talking about.

Look at the very best example of a “Christ Crucified Sermon” with Peter’s sermon in Acts 2: you do not hear Peter saying Christ took your place on the cross. You do see in challenging their belief and they have to believe That they caused the crucifixion of Christ and only after they believed that do they repent.

Can you address?

Do you agree the person refusing to believer/accept Christ is personally held responsible for his/her decision to not become a freed child and enter the kingdom or do you see that as someone else’s responsibility (satan, God, Adam &Eve) and yet God is going to punish the person?


Do you agree God’s power, wisdom in creating the rules and Love is great enough to forgive others without the need from anything or anyone else?


Do you agree no matter how great the ransom payment is, if the kidnapper refuses to accept the ransom payment the child is not set free?

 

[Neostarwcc]

The problem I see in only dying for the elect means that He intentionally chose some not to be saved.
There are way to many Scriptures that say He wants all to be saved. God would not contradict His Word.

It wasn't that he chose people to not be saved. It was more like he knew that they would never come to him for salvation so they can't be saved. Don't forget God knows all. He knows our entire lives. So he knows who will come to him for salvation and who will not. The belief that Jesus only died for the elect doesn't say that God will abandon anyone or that God chooses people for hell. Everyone who comes to Jesus WILL be saved.

But you're right scripture does say that God wanted salvation to be available to the world. But don't forget Gods own chosen people rejected him. The world rejected him and continues to reject him to this day. Salvation is available to all who God foreknew would accept it. We both agree on this. That's what matters I guess.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Jesus the Divine Messiah voluntarily bled to death on an unjust Cross FOR all Mankind FOR all Sin FOR all Time. This Salvation is spiritually offered to ALL spirits. Some accept the Light / Gift. Some do not

Revelation 1:5 (NASB)...BELIEVERS
...and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead,
and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To Him who loves us and released us from our sins BY His blood—

Sounds like spiritual "atonement" and "reconciliation" to me.

1 Corinthians 15:3,17...Jesus the God-Man and SIN
For I delivered to you (believers) as of first importance what I also received,
that Christ died FOR our sins according to the Scriptures,...and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

Hebrews 9:28
so Christ also, having been offered ONCE to BEAR the sins of many, (WHO ACCEPT!)
will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. (Second Coming! to the saved)

1 Peter 3:18...ALL MANKIND
For Christ also died FOR sins ONCE FOR ALL,
the just (Jesus)
FOR the unjust, (Mankind)
so that He might bring us to God, (RECONCILIATION!)
having been put to death in the flesh, (CRUCIFIXION)
but made alive in the spirit;(RESURRECTION + APPEARANCES + ASCENSION)

Sounds like "substitution" to me

2 Cor. 5:21 ...IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS!
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin ON OUR BEHALF, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

1 Peter 2:24 (NASB)...and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness;
for by His wounds you were healed.

Romans 3:25
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood--to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

Romans 4:25
He was delivered over to death FOR our sins and was raised to life FOR our justification.

Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,

Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—

1 John 3:5
But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.

 

[By_Christ]

Greetings everyone. I am so glad to find this forum and especially this topic.

My question. After reading the Scriptures but also by your own mind, what is sin for you?

For me, I would define it as missing a purpose in life. Thoughts?

 

[Ron Gurley]

Response To Post # 56 : Q: "...what is sin?..."

"SIN"...DEFINED??

DEFINE: "Sin".

Romans 14:23b...whatever is not from (spirit-led) faith is sin.

SIN / SIN(S) / SINNERS / SIN NATURE...Defined and Explained

"SIN" :
414 times in 269 verses in the OT Hebrew concordance of the NASB...condition of sin, guilt of sin, punishment for sin, sin-offering

OT: Hebrew 2403 - "chatta'ath"

NT: Greek 266 - "hamartia" : 1)
a) to be without a share in
b) to miss the mark
c) to err, be mistaken
d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong
e) to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, sin
2) that which is done wrong, sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act
3) collectively, the complex or aggregate of sins committed either by a single person or by many

My Attempted DEFINITIONS:

1. SIN = "falling short" = ANYTHING contrary to the perfect CHARACTER and ATTRIBUTES of the TRI-UNE GOD...ALL fall short!

Romans 3:23 (NASB)... for all have sinned and fall short of the "glory of God",

(This is the spiritual gap between God's perfect good and Man's imperfections.)

2. SIN(S) = personal "missing the marks" = willful or ignorant, commission or omission, "trespasses" that cause loss of fellowship with / create a barrier between God and Man...
For Believers, these can be FORGIVEN! 1 John 1
For UNbelievers, SALVATION is first required.
For REMEDY for believers, CONFESSION (spiritually agreeing with God)... 1 John 1

3. SIN NATURE = the natural-born innate capacity and inclination to do / not do those things that can in no way commend Man and his "works" to God...Man's exercising God-given "free will" to REJECT God.
This natural tendency is SPIRITUALLY changed by the SALVATION / REDEMPTION EVENT, BUT it still rears its ugly head in the BODY / SOUL combo ("flesh") during the SANCTIFICATION PROCESS.

4. IMPUTED SIN:?...Romans 5:12. 15-17 (NIV)...Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ = IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS!

"original sin" is a false doctrine! ~= the first wilfull disobedience of A&E is NOT in our DNA! SEE:

Original Sin?

2 Corinthians 5:21...= IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS!
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God IN Him.

How believers deal with SIN(S) in their lives after salvation
...>>> the "carnal Christ-follower " must CONFESS (agree with God)...
1 John 1: 5-10...Walking in the Light

1 Peter 3: 15-22 (NIV1984)...substitutionary atonement
For Christ (Jesus the God-Man) died FOR (ALL) sin(s) once FOR ALL,
the righteous (Jesus the God-Man) FOR the unrighteous,(all natural men with IMPUTED SIN)
to bring you to God. (salvation and reconciliation)

 

[He Calls Me Friend]

Scripture tells us "the sins of us all" were placed on Jesus, and atonement for them was complete ... I believe that means all mankind, and all sins, past, present and future. I believe that means that God was reconciled to all mankind. Otherwise, if a sinner's sins are only atoned for when he confesses them, then Jesus would have to die (again, and again, and again...!) each time an individual confesses his sins, for the past 2,000 years and counting.

It takes two to "reconcile". I believe Scripture teaches that Jesus' "once for all" sacrifice reconciled God to mankind, but not mankind to God. In order for an individual to be reconciled to God, it involves a conscious choice on the part of the individual, and that choice can't be made by God the Father or God the Son. In other words, the Father completed what he needed to do, what he could do, and Jesus completed what he needed to do, what he could do, for everyone to be "saved". That gift is offered to "whosoever will," which, like any gift, doesn't benefit anyone unless it is accepted and used for its intended purpose.