For Whom Did Jesus Christ Die?

[bling]

New Testament Atonement is very different from the Old Testament system, for starters

Yes very much so, but the word "atonement" did not change.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

Yes very much so, but the word "atonement" did not change.

We are not talking about words!

 

[bling]

We are not talking about words!

We are using the same word, but with different definitions, this is an "assumption" we are making on the definition of the word atonement which will impact our conclusions.
I base my assumption on how the scripture (OT and NT) defines the word and do not just make the definition of the word fit my conclusion.

Was Jesus on the cross our atonement sacrifice?

Was Jesus on the cross a ransom payment or the whole ransom process?

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

We are using the same word, but with different definitions, this is an "assumption" we are making on the definition of the word atonement which will impact our conclusions.
I base my assumption on how the scripture (OT and NT) defines the word and do not just make the definition of the word fit my conclusion.

Was Jesus on the cross our atonement sacrifice?

Was Jesus on the cross a ransom payment or the whole ransom process?

To the first question, the answer has to be yes. The second, the first part is correct, while the words after "or" are not. I think that people get confused by what the term "ransom" means in passages like Matthew 20:28, where the Greek word "λύτρον" is used. the base meaning of this word is, "the price for redeeming". Instead of understanding it for "a payment made to another", I think that it means that Jesus' blood shed on the cross, IS the price for the salvation of all sinners, but only effective upon repentance. Jesus' blood itself is the "price" paid, but not to anyone, but for the satisfying of the Just demands of God Almighty, Jesus Himself being the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, Who was also offended against, by the fallen human race.

I would love to continue, but it is past midnight in Old England.

 

[Neostarwcc]

can you explain the fact that Judas was present when Jesus told him and the others that He shed His blood for them ALL? You cannot base any doctrine simply on a single passage of Scripture. Even John Calvin whom "Calvinists" claim believed in "limited atonement", never did as his own comments as I have shown, prove. Neither did Jesus teach it as I have also shown from John chapter 5. Regardless of our "theology", the Bible very clearly teaches the universal atonement of Jesus Christ. This does not mean as some suppose, that it equates to universal salvation, as both "repentance and belief" in the Gospel are a pre-requirement (Mark 1:15, etc)

That's true. Jesus did tell Judas that. But Jesus also knew ahead of time that Judas would never accept him as savior and that Judas would betray him. Therefore Judas never was or could be saved. I mean he could have accepted Jesus when he had remorse. But he chose to kill himself before that could happen. Which tragically Jesus foreknew. That's why Jesus called him the son of perdition who is forever lost in John 17. If Jesus died for everyone than howcome not everyone will be saved? Only those that accept Jesus as savior right? Jesus died for the people who he knew ahead of time would accept him. God decided before time even began that everyone who accepts Jesus will be saved and that not one of those people will be lost. That much is clear from scripture.

 

[Doug Melven]

Jesus died for the people who he knew ahead of time would accept him. God decided before time even began that everyone who accepts Jesus will be saved and that not one of those people will be lost. That much is clear from scripture.

Could you show where it is clear in Scripture?
To me it is clear in Scripture that Jesus died for everyone.
1 John 2:2, Romans 5:6, 18

 

[Neostarwcc]

Could you show where it is clear in Scripture?
To me it is clear in Scripture that Jesus died for everyone.
1 John 2:2, Romans 5:6, 18

Certainly. Somewhere in John 17 in his prayer to the Father Jesus says that not one of the people he gave to Jesus were lost and that he died for those who would believe in him. In John 6:37-40 Jesus says that the will of the Father is that all who believe in Jesus will be saved. If Jesus died for everyone why are only people who believe in Jesus saved? If he died for everyone than Jesus would save all wouldn't he? Not just the elect.

 

[Doug Melven]

Certainly. Somewhere in John 17 in his prayer to the Father Jesus says that not one of the people he gave to Jesus were lost and that he died for those who would believe in him. In John 6:37-40 Jesus says that the will of the Father is that all who believe in Jesus will be saved. If Jesus died for everyone why are only people who believe in Jesus saved? If he died for everyone than Jesus would save all wouldn't he? Not just the elect.

It does not say in John 17 that He died only for the elect.
It does say that in this prayer He is praying only for believers, not for the world.
And if you read what He prayed for the believers you will see why in this prayer He did not pray for the world.
It was a prayer that we believers would be one as He and the Father were one.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If Jesus died for everyone why are only people who believe in Jesus saved? If he died for everyone than Jesus would save all wouldn't he? Not just the elect.

Sounds logical ? Makes (worldly) sense , right ?

But has to be rejected ! Why? Because it contradicts YHWH'S WORD and PLAN and PURPOSE in JESUS.

Anything that contradicts YHWH'S WORD (SCRIPTURE), is rejected as UNtrue/ false/ error.

 

[Neostarwcc]

It does not say in John 17 that He died only for the elect.
It does say that in this prayer He is praying only for believers, not for the world.
And if you read what He prayed for the believers you will see why in this prayer He did not pray for the world.
It was a prayer that we believers would be one as He and the Father were one.

That's true I remember that from the prayer. There were other verses but I cannot remember. Jesus did say somewhere in John "You do not believe because you are not of my sheep". Which means that his sheep are those who believe.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

That's true. Jesus did tell Judas that. But Jesus also knew ahead of time that Judas would never accept him as savior and that Judas would betray him. Therefore Judas never was or could be saved. I mean he could have accepted Jesus when he had remorse. But he chose to kill himself before that could happen. Which tragically Jesus foreknew. That's why Jesus called him the son of perdition who is forever lost in John 17. If Jesus died for everyone than howcome not everyone will be saved? Only those that accept Jesus as savior right? Jesus died for the people who he knew ahead of time would accept him. God decided before time even began that everyone who accepts Jesus will be saved and that not one of those people will be lost. That much is clear from scripture.

Jesus Christ dying for the whole human race has nothing to do with "universal salvation", they are totally different. Repentance and faith are necessary for any sinner to get saved! Just because Jesus dies for someone does not automatically guarantee their salvation, neither does it mean that because any are lost, for whom He died, that somehow His death failed!

 

[Doug Melven]

That's true I remember that from the prayer. There were other verses but I cannot remember. Jesus did say somewhere in John "You do not believe because you are not of my sheep". Which means that his sheep are those who believe.

Jesus died for all, that whosever will may believe on Him.
The problem with Limited Atonement is that God intentionally chose some people to go to hell.
He is not willing that any should perish, but thall should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
Notice the 2 parts of that verse.
It is NOT His will for anyone to perish.
It is His will that ALL should repent.
It is His will that everybody be saved 1 Timothy 2:5
If it is His will that everyone get saved, why would He intentionally choose some for hell?

 

[Neostarwcc]

In the bible Jesus called the elect his sheep. Especially in John 10:11,15 Jesus tells us that the sheep know him and he knows them. He also says that he lays down his life for the sheep and that he does it on his own accord if Jesus died for everyone why did Jesus say that he died for his sheep aka the elect. If he died for everyone wouldn't he have said something along the lines of "I lay down my life for the world so that the whole world may be saved". But he didn't say that he said I die for my sheep so that my sheep may be saved.

Also in John 10:7 Jesus says I am the gate for the sheep and everyone who enters through me will be saved. If he died for everyone why would he be the gate for the sheep? You could argue that he said EVERYONE who enters through me will be saved but I think he limited salvation to his sheep because why would he say "I am the gate for the sheep." instead of "I am the gate for the world"

When he said everyone who enters through me will be saved he meant his sheep. Which is those who God foreknew would come to Jesus for salvation. It's not possible to save the world or people who aren't Jesus´s sheep. Because Jesus foreknew that they would forever reject him.

 

[bling]

To the first question, the answer has to be yes. The second, the first part is correct, while the words after "or" are not. I think that people get confused by what the term "ransom" means in passages like Matthew 20:28, where the Greek word "λύτρον" is used. the base meaning of this word is, "the price for redeeming". Instead of understanding it for "a payment made to another", I think that it means that Jesus' blood shed on the cross, IS the price for the salvation of all sinners, but only effective upon repentance. Jesus' blood itself is the "price" paid, but not to anyone, but for the satisfying of the Just demands of God Almighty, Jesus Himself being the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, Who was also offended against, by the fallen human race.

I would love to continue, but it is past midnight in Old England.

I have no problem with the understanding of “ransom payment” being "λύτρον" and meaning: "the price for redeeming".

We seem to agree Christ was that payment for all of mankind, but disagree on “who or what” was paid this “price for redeeming and what was required to complete the transaction”.

As far as the completion of the transaction you seem to be saying “effective upon repentance”, but I do not find scripture support for that answer, except in the fact: “not everyone is redeemed”. I fully agree the unbeliever has to “do” something, but believing is not the same as repenting. The true “believer” will repent, but what ties “repentance” to the price being paid?

As far as “who or what is being paid” you first say: “but not to anyone” which makes no sense, because than there no reason to pay the price and then you say: “satisfying of the Just demands of God Almighty”, but who established this unique “justice” system totally contradictory to the justice described in scripture (it has to be God). This makes God out to be blood thirsty, unable to “forgive” without a human/deity bloody sacrifice (this shows a weakness of God). The “not to anyone” also means it goes to some intangible thing, because it did happen for someone (you are seem to suggest it is to satisfy a God with a problem).

It really is not that hard to figure out:

Do you agree the person refusing to believer/accept Christ is personally held responsible for his/her decision to not become a freed child and enter the kingdom or do you see that as someone else’s responsibility (satan, God, Adam &Eve) and yet God is going to punish the person?

Do you agree God’s power, wisdom in creating the rules and Love is great enough to forgive others without the need from anything or anyone else?

Do you agree no matter how great the ransom payment is, if the kidnapper refuses to accept the ransom payment the child is not set free?

God is not trying to get the nonbeliever to do some noble, righteous, honorable or worthy task like repent, but just to accept what He has done (accept the bloody ransom payment for that child within the nonbeliever). A kidnapper accepting an undeserved ransom payment is not doing anything worthy of anything.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

I have no problem with the understanding of “ransom payment” being "λύτρον" and meaning: "the price for redeeming".

We seem to agree Christ was that payment for all of mankind, but disagree on “who or what” was paid this “price for redeeming and what was required to complete the transaction”.

As far as the completion of the transaction you seem to be saying “effective upon repentance”, but I do not find scripture support for that answer, except in the fact: “not everyone is redeemed”. I fully agree the unbeliever has to “do” something, but believing is not the same as repenting. The true “believer” will repent, but what ties “repentance” to the price being paid?

As far as “who or what is being paid” you first say: “but not to anyone” which makes no sense, because than there no reason to pay the price and then you say: “satisfying of the Just demands of God Almighty”, but who established this unique “justice” system totally contradictory to the justice described in scripture (it has to be God). This makes God out to be blood thirsty, unable to “forgive” without a human/deity bloody sacrifice (this shows a weakness of God). The “not to anyone” also means it goes to some intangible thing, because it did happen for someone (you are seem to suggest it is to satisfy a God with a problem).

It really is not that hard to figure out:

Do you agree the person refusing to believer/accept Christ is personally held responsible for his/her decision to not become a freed child and enter the kingdom or do you see that as someone else’s responsibility (satan, God, Adam &Eve) and yet God is going to punish the person?

Do you agree God’s power, wisdom in creating the rules and Love is great enough to forgive others without the need from anything or anyone else?

Do you agree no matter how great the ransom payment is, if the kidnapper refuses to accept the ransom payment the child is not set free?

God is not trying to get the nonbeliever to do some noble, righteous, honorable or worthy task like repent, but just to accept what He has done (accept the bloody ransom payment for that child within the nonbeliever). A kidnapper accepting an undeserved ransom payment is not doing anything worthy of anything.

For starters, it was Jesus' first recorded words in Mark's Gospel, "repent and believe in the Gospel" (1:15), which shows that "belief" itself can never save anyone. The devil "believes", and will never get to heaven! At the end of His Ministry, Luke records Jesus as saying, "and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem" (24:47). Acts 2:38, Peter tells those convicted by the Holy Spirit, "REPENT". This is a pre-requisite for ALL sinners BEFORE they can ever be saved. A great example if Jonah, who was told to take the Gospel to the people of Nineveh, one of the most wicked places on earth at the time. When they finally heard the message, we read, " The word reached the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, removed his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. And he issued a proclamation and published through Nineveh, “By the decree of the king and his nobles: Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything. Let them not feed or drink water, but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and let them call out mightily to God. Let everyone turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands (true repentance). Who knows? God may turn and relent and turn from his fierce anger, so that we may not perish.” (3:6-9). How did God respond? We read on, "When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way (repented), God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it." (3:10)

 

[Doug Melven]

In the bible Jesus called the elect his sheep. Especially in John 10:11,15 Jesus tells us that the sheep know him and he knows them. He also says that he lays down his life for the sheep and that he does it on his own accord if Jesus died for everyone why did Jesus say that he died for his sheep aka the elect. If he died for everyone wouldn't he have said something along the lines of "I lay down my life for the world so that the whole world may be saved". But he didn't say that he said I die for my sheep so that my sheep may be saved.

Also in John 10:7 Jesus says I am the gate for the sheep and everyone who enters through me will be saved. If he died for everyone why would he be the gate for the sheep? You could argue that he said EVERYONE who enters through me will be saved but I think he limited salvation to his sheep because why would he say "I am the gate for the sheep." instead of "I am the gate for the world"

When he said everyone who enters through me will be saved he meant his sheep. Which is those who God foreknew would come to Jesus for salvation. It's not possible to save the world or people who aren't Jesus´s sheep. Because Jesus foreknew that they would forever reject him.

Of course Jesus died for His sheep, but He also died for the whole world.
1 John 2:2 And He is the propitiation for our sins (His sheep) and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
Now you will probably say "Whole world" refers to various nations where the elect are.
But I think we should look into the same book to see the meaning instead of going to a different book.

5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Jesus died for everybody, even those lying in wickedness.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

Of course Jesus died for His sheep, but He also died for the whole world.
1 John 2:2 And He is the propitiation for our sins (His sheep) and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
Now you will probably say "Whole world" refers to various nations where the elect are.
But I think we should look into the same book to see the meaning instead of going to a different book.

5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Jesus died for everybody, even those lying in wickedness.

Indeed! The Bible plainly teaches to those who will hear, that Jesus Christ died also for Judas!

In Luke's account of the Lord's Supper, we read the following,

"Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. But behold, the hand of My betrayer is with Me on the table" (22:20-21)

The word "you" is in the plural number, which would include Judas, who also partook of the cup which represented Jesus "blood" shed for the sins also of Judas on the cross. There are some who argue that Judas was not present for the Lord's Supper, but only for the Passover meal. I quote from two prominent Calvinistic commentator's, on this passage.

"From Luke's account it appears most clearly, that Judas was not only at the passover, but at the Lord's supper, since this was said when both were over" (John Gill)

"it seems plain that Judas did receive the Lord's supper, did eat of that bread and drink of that cup; for, after the solemnity was over, Christ said, Behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. There have been those that have eaten bread with Christ and yet have betrayed him" (Matthew Henry)

It should be observed, that the timing of the institution of the Lord's Supper is very important. Jesus makes sure that Judas, then one who would betray Him, was also present when He addressed His words, "My blood which is shed for YOU", which without any doubt included Judas. Had Jesus' death not been also for Judas, and those who are not of the so-called "elect", then surely Jesus would have waited for Judas to have left the room, which he did not much later, and then instituted the Lord's Supper, which included Jesus' words for whom this was intended.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If the false gospel was truth, and no one was going to be judged the way YHWH says they are going to be judged,
then
there is no reason at all for threads saying everyone is saved.
It doesn't make any sense to tell people they are going to be saved no matter what they do,
unless money is involved, or pride in wickedness and evil.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

If the false gospel was truth, and no one was going to be judged the way YHWH says they are going to be judged,
then
there is no reason at all for threads saying everyone is saved.
It doesn't make any sense to tell people they are going to be saved no matter what they do,
unless money is involved, or pride in wickedness and evil.

maybe to make them feel "good" about themselves! something that they "deserve"!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

maybe to make them feel "good" about themselves! something that they "deserve"!

"feel good" today, die condemned tomorrow ..... hmmm....
The false gospel leads to eternal condemnation and shame only.

The truth if anyone seeks it can set them free from eternal condemnation,
by
faith and grace in Christ Jesus.