For Those of Reformed Theology

[FOMWatts<><]

I was also raised in a Southern Baptist Church and am on a quest (LOL) to reform that church. They have convincing arguments, but none can argue with the word of God! I must say that, AS A BAPTIST, I was taught to resist anything NON-Baptist and to stick with the view of the church, but GOD had different plans for me. He has enlightened me through an in-depth study of HIS Word! I got a hold of a book by a group of reformationist called TULIP, which is an acronym for the five basic views of Calvinism. It explains it all and compares Calvinism to Arminianism through Scriptural comparison. It is good for anyone looking for an in depth explanation of Calvinism :-D Anyway, I wrote all of this to agree that it is amazing at how God opens the door for people to get exposed to the truth.

FOMWatts<><

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by FOMWatts&lt;&gt;&lt;
I was also raised in a Southern Baptist Church and am on a quest (LOL) to reform that church. They have convincing arguments, but none can argue with the word of God! I must say that, AS A BAPTIST, I was taught to resist anything NON-Baptist and to stick with the view of the church, but GOD had different plans for me. He has enlightened me through an in-depth study of HIS Word! I got a hold of a book by a group of reformationist called TULIP, which is an acronym for the five basic views of Calvinism. It explains it all and compares Calvinism to Arminianism through Scriptural comparison. It is good for anyone looking for an in depth explanation of Calvinism :-D Anyway, I wrote all of this to agree that it is amazing at how God opens the door for people to get exposed to the truth.

FOMWatts&lt;&gt;&lt;

Amen, Brother.&nbsp; Another good and easy to understand book is The 5 Points of Calvinism by Steele.&nbsp; The first name escapes me and I have loaned the book to someone.&nbsp; Good read and backed up by scripture.

 

[Gamecock]

Hi all

I have been looking into and studying the view of Calvinism lately because as a Bible student who is studying to be a pastor, I must decide what doctrines I hold to and teach. So I have been pondering some ideas and I would like some feedback concering this idea:

As Calvinists or Reformers, would the reason be that so many people "fall away" from the faith or turn away from christianity because they were never truly saved? By this, reformers believe in limited atonement and irresistable grace, therefore all who God has predestined to be saved will be saved. But we see many, even on this MB, who claim to have once been Christian but have now become atheist or agnostic. Could this be because they are not of the elect, and that in their depraived nature they saw the fruits of being a "Christian" and thus decided to try and live a certain lifestyle rather than being truly converted?

If you would allow me to elaborate just ask

Again this is just my pondering on Calvinism and its theological results.


PS. Have any of you read a short novel by Richard Belcher entitled "A Journey in Grace"? If so, your thoughts.


Be well

You don't know if someone is truely "fallen away" until they die. God may allow them to stray for a season for his own Glory!

 

[geebob]

Don't forget to check out the various free will theists who come from the reformed tradition Such as Vincent Brummer,Nicolaus Wolterstorff, and Alvin Plantinga. The last two are credited for bringing about a revival and even an explosion in Christian Philosophy in the last quarter of the 20th century that has been something that serious philosophers can respect. They come from this magical place up north called "Calvin College" where everyone in the philosophy department rejects most of the tulip in favor of free will theism.


Also there's some great calvinistic biblical scholars out there such as NT Wright who are defending the orthodox faith in a historically sophisticated way and they are exposing the old calvinistic prooftexts demonstrating them to be something different (not that that is their specific intention).

 

[frumanchu]

MacArthur and Begg are two of my top three favorite preachers (David Jeremiah being the third)!

Love Dr. Jeremiah. Listen to him every day on the way home from work. Excellent teacher. I'll add my voice to the list recommending R.C. Sproul. Read him more than any other.

Glad you are taking an interest in Reformed theology and wish you the best of luck.

 

[eutychus37]

Greetings, Jesaiah. I, too, am glad to hear that you're searching out God and reformed theology. I suggest the following articles, especially the first, if you want some good reads during your quest:
http://www.antithesis.com/conversations/easychairs.html
http://www.antithesis.com/features/calvinism.html

I pray that the Spirit will continue to guide you toward the truth proclaimed in God's character and His Word.

Oh yeah, and I second Southern Seminary. I'm going to their undergraduate school next semester, and Dr. Mohler is a gem.

 

[Ben johnson]

As Calvinists or Reformers, would the reason be that so many people "fall away" from the faith or turn away from christianity because they were never truly saved? By this, reformers believe in limited atonement and irresistable grace, therefore all who God has predestined to be saved will be saved. But we see many, even on this MB, who claim to have once been Christian but have now become atheist or agnostic. Could this be because they are not of the elect, and that in their depraived nature they saw the fruits of being a "Christian" and thus decided to try and live a certain lifestyle rather than being truly converted?

Hi, Jesaiah! I'm not what you call "of reformed theology"; but may I comment? I hope you will find value in my ideas...

There are many passages in the Bible that speak of "falling away"; to keep with a "OSAS" dogma, one must understand each as:

1. They were NEVER REALLY SAVED.
2. They NEVER REALLY FELL.
3. It's not a REAL ACCOUNT, it's HYPERBOLE; a fanciful tail spun to impart fatherly advice --- but the FALLING can't REALLY happen.
4. There is some way to DISREGARD entire letters of Scripture; perhaps James and Peter wrote theirs for a different dispensation than ours, or maybe Hebrews was written for JEWS ONLY.

That's about it; there isn't any #5 as far as I know.

"Problem passages" include Gal3:1-3 & 5:1-7, 2Pet2:20-22, James 5:19-20, 1:14-16, and pretty much the entire book of Hebrews. Let's look at just the first two:

1. 2Pet2:18 speaks of the THIRD group (not false teachers nor false prophets), but the ONTOS APOPHEUGO TRULY ESCAPED. How did they EFFECT that escape? It's word-for-Greek-word the same as 2Pet1:1-4, "apopheugo-escaped corruption/defilements, through the epignosis-saved-knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ". How can they NOT be saved in ch2, when those in ch1 ARE saved? And in Gal, they "began in the Spirit, they WERE running WELL". Can that EVER refer to UNSAVED? How?

2. Gal5:4 says "you are SEVERED from CHRIST, you are FALLEN from GRACE"; 2Pet says "entangled in defilements and overcome, now worse than BEFORE they EPIGINOSKO-TRULY-KNEW the way of righteousness. They EPISTREPHO-EK-TURNED-AWAY from the holy commandment." No, I do not think anyone can say, "THEY ARE STILL SAVED".

3. 2Pet2 reads as REAL; and Gal3&5 are speaking of a REAL PEOPLE with a REALY HISTORY, It is NOT hyperbole, it is NOT rhetorical fatherly advice. It is a real account.

4. The problem with this is that Galatians (as far as I know) has not been assigned to a different dispensation than ours; it speaks of the NEW COVENANT, GRACE. Hebrews especially says "new covenant". Heb8:6.

4. As far as JEWS ONLY, don't passages like Gal3:28 say "there is now neither Jew nor Greek ...all are one in Christ Jesus"?

Now, to say that "one who FALLS was never really SAVED", contradicts a variety of Scriptures. Did they have FRUITS of salvation? I assure you they did; many of these "fallen people" have posted on these forums. Jesus said, "a BAD tree CANNOT produce good fruits"; this also contradicts those who would say "passages such as 2Pet2:20-22 only APPEARED to escape but they weren't REALLY escaped" --- Paul writes in Rom6:16 we are EITHER slaves to SIN, or slaves to RIGHTEOUSNESS; there is no "pretending to be slaves to righteousness".

A bad tree CANNOT pretend to be good. It CANNOT produce good fruit --- Jesus said so.

So I really don't think the paradigm of "they were never REALLY saved" works, either in Scripture, or in real life...

 

[Wrigley]

Don't forget to check out the various free will theists who come from the reformed tradition Such as Vincent Brummer,Nicolaus Wolterstorff, and Alvin Plantinga. The last two are credited for bringing about a revival and even an explosion in Christian Philosophy in the last quarter of the 20th century that has been something that serious philosophers can respect. They come from this magical place up north called "Calvin College" where everyone in the philosophy department rejects most of the tulip in favor of free will theism.

It's been 13 years since I graduated from Calvin College, but still live in the area. I chuckle because I know what you're talking about.

 

[frumanchu]

Jesaiah, as you consider Ben Johnson's little tract there I would encourage you to also check out some of the threads on this issue. You will find that thorough explanations have been given for the grand rhetorical statements Ben has blessed us with.

 

[geebob]

It's been 13 years since I graduated from Calvin College, but still live in the area. I chuckle because I know what you're talking about

[Mr. Burn's voice]excellent![/Mr. Burn's voice]

 

[Gamecock]

I was also raised in a Southern Baptist Church and am on a quest (LOL) to reform that church. They have convincing arguments, but none can argue with the word of God! I must say that, AS A BAPTIST, I was taught to resist anything NON-Baptist and to stick with the view of the church, but GOD had different plans for me. He has enlightened me through an in-depth study of HIS Word! I got a hold of a book by a group of reformationist called TULIP, which is an acronym for the five basic views of Calvinism. It explains it all and compares Calvinism to Arminianism through Scriptural comparison. It is good for anyone looking for an in depth explanation of Calvinism :-D Anyway, I wrote all of this to agree that it is amazing at how God opens the door for people to get exposed to the truth.

FOMWatts<><

As a Baptist, you must be familiar with the great Great Reformed Baptist preacher named Spurgeon...

 

[Ben johnson]

You will find that thorough explanations have been given for the grand rhetorical statements Ben has blessed us with

Really! (Hi, Fru! )

If you could be bothered to direct us to some of those "thorough explanations", I would be grateful. I was thinkin' that they mostly go ignored...

MOUNTS was the only one that had the courage to respond to that particular question; and I was very pleased with him that he took the trouble...

 

[Timothy S.]

"" PS. Have any of you read a short novel by Richard Belcher entitled "A Journey in Grace"? ""

Hey Jesaiah-
I have read the Journey in Grace novel, (and you probably already know this,) but the book is the beginning of a series, following Ira (I think that’s his name) through his journey’s in Eschatology, Providence, Purity, and Salvation to name a few, I think there is something like nine of them. Anyway thought you'd like to know
God bless--
Timothy S.

 

[Ioustinos]

"" PS. Have any of you read a short novel by Richard Belcher entitled "A Journey in Grace"? ""

Hey Jesaiah-
I have read the Journey in Grace novel, (and you probably already know this,) but the book is the beginning of a series, following Ira (I think that’s his name) through his journey’s in Eschatology, Providence, Purity, and Salvation to name a few, I think there is something like nine of them. Anyway thought you'd like to know
God bless--
Timothy S.

Hi Timothy

Actually I didn't know that it was only one book in a series Thanks for the information. It would be interesting to read the other books within the series. Have you read them all? I only have "A Journey in Grace" because it was a gift to me from a pastor.

God Bless

Jesaiah

 

[Rick Otto]

Jes,
I see you're not being distracted by those proud of their "free" volitions.
Good for you.
AS for anyone living their life not knowing they are "saved"...
I would allow for it in a certain sense.
Millions have died never having "heard the gospel" in the traditional sense, but what a glorious witness to His salvific power, if He were to have mercy upon one of these, allowing them to "hear the gospel" in a non-traditional sense.
Certainly Abraham heard it in what would be considered a "non-traditional sense".

 

[Timothy S.]

Hey Jes
I have read all the books, but seeing this thread is for those of the reformed persuasion; I won’t comment . Besides, it’s been so long since I’ve read them! As I recall, they are not really in depth, more so introductory. They’re more for entertainment, and he sneaks in theological points, kind of like a Trojan horse, except it's not trying to kill you .
Anyway, Take care and God bless---
Timothy S.

 

[Tam4givin]

What does reformed theology mean? Thank you.

 

[Bulldog]

You can learn some good stuff about Reformed Theology here: reformed.org

 

[Ben johnson]

"Reformed Theology" is quite complicated. Ususally it's interchangeable with terms like "Total Depravity" and "Unconditional Election" and "Limited Atonement" and "Irresistible Grace" and "Perseverance of the Saints"; and "predestined-election" and "Calvinism" etcetera. But basically the belief asserts that God CHOOSES who WILL believe, and ignores all the rest. Asserts that Jesus did NOT die for everyone, but only those God has elected (chosen before) --- atonement being LIMITED.

It asserts that mankind is too depraved to EVER believe, godly things are FOOLISHNESS and he is not just unable to receive Jesus, he is spiritually, a CORPSE. God accomplishes regeneration in his (her?) heart, UNILATERALLY --- unasked, unwanted, unknown (before it happens); and it is from this "divinely-regenerated-heart" flow things like belief/faith, endurance, righteousness, etcetera.

Those regenerated WILL believe, those not regenerated will NOT believe. All of the warnings to "abide" and "not fall" and "be steadfast" and "be diligent about your election", they're really "hypothetical", hyperbolic really; because all those things flow FROM that "unilaterally-regenerated-heart".

The most foundational difference between "Reformed Theology" and "Responsible Grace" is that RT asserts "regeneration causes belief" (or "leads to, invariably, belief") --- while "Responsible Grace asserts that "belief receives regeneration by the Holy Spirit"...

 

[Ioustinos]

"Reformed Theology" is quite complicated. Ususally it's interchangeable with terms like "Total Depravity" and "Unconditional Election" and "Limited Atonement" and "Irresistible Grace" and "Perseverance of the Saints"; and "predestined-election" and "Calvinism" etcetera. But basically the belief asserts that God CHOOSES who WILL believe, and ignores all the rest. Asserts that Jesus did NOT die for everyone, but only those God has elected (chosen before) --- atonement being LIMITED.

It asserts that mankind is too depraved to EVER believe, godly things are FOOLISHNESS and he is not just unable to receive Jesus, he is spiritually, a CORPSE. God accomplishes regeneration in his (her?) heart, UNILATERALLY --- unasked, unwanted, unknown (before it happens); and it is from this "divinely-regenerated-heart" flow things like belief/faith, endurance, righteousness, etcetera.

Those regenerated WILL believe, those not regenerated will NOT believe. All of the warnings to "abide" and "not fall" and "be steadfast" and "be diligent about your election", they're really "hypothetical", hyperbolic really; because all those things flow FROM that "unilaterally-regenerated-heart".

The most foundational difference between "Reformed Theology" and "Responsible Grace" is that RT asserts "regeneration causes belief" (or "leads to, invariably, belief") --- while "Responsible Grace asserts that "belief receives regeneration by the Holy Spirit"...

Hi Ben!

Though you are correct in saying that the issue of Soteriology is an important factor in Reformed Theology we must remember that it is only one aspect of Reformed Theology. Reformed Theology includes soteriology but also eschatology, the sacraments, covanent theology, etc.

God Bless

Jesaiah