For Those of Reformed Theology

[Ioustinos]

Hi all

I have been looking into and studying the view of Calvinism lately because as a Bible student who is studying to be a pastor, I must decide what doctrines I hold to and teach. So I have been pondering some ideas and I would like some feedback concering this idea:

As Calvinists or Reformers, would the reason be that so many people "fall away" from the faith or turn away from christianity because they were never truly saved? By this, reformers believe in limited atonement and irresistable grace, therefore all who God has predestined to be saved will be saved. But we see many, even on this MB, who claim to have once been Christian but have now become atheist or agnostic. Could this be because they are not of the elect, and that in their depraived nature they saw the fruits of being a "Christian" and thus decided to try and live a certain lifestyle rather than being truly converted?

If you would allow me to elaborate just ask

Again this is just my pondering on Calvinism and its theological results.


PS. Have any of you read a short novel by Richard Belcher entitled "A Journey in Grace"? If so, your thoughts.


Be well

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Jesaiah
Hi all

Hey Jes!

As Calvinists or Reformers, would the reason be that so many people "fall away" from the faith or turn away from christianity because they were never truly saved?

Not necessarily.  For some it might be an issue of disobedience.  For others, the Word fell upon unproductive ground because unless God "tills the soil" (changes our heart) it doesn't matter how closely we strive to keep the Law we do not have the right motivation for doing so.  Thus, if an unregenerate person goes to church, reads their Bible and applies it to their life so they will be accepted in a group or for some other reason that isn't because they wish to glorify God then it benefits them as much as physical circumcision benefitted the Jew with regard to their salvation, none.  The thing is, we can never know the motive of someone's choices like God can.  Therefore, we are commanded to never make a judgment as to a person's salvitic disposition.  If we feel that they are living in sin, regardless of our personal opinion as to their salvation, we are commanded to treat them with love.  Biblical love is not always a hug.  Sometimes it's telling them to leave the fellowship of brethren, hence, excommunication. 

By this, reformers believe in limited atonement and irresistable grace, therefore all who God has predestined to be saved will be saved.

Absolutely.  However, the elect, saved and unsaved, sin.  For those whom have been saved the penalty of sin has changed because Christ overcame eternal separation from His Father.  We are in Him, so we too overcame, by His Works.  The elect are not subject to the law of sin and death.  They are subject to the law of sin that Paul speaks of in Romans 7:23:

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Contrast that with the law that Paul says he was freed from when God saved him:

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

But we see many, even on this MB, who claim to have once been Christian but have now become atheist or agnostic.

I will say this and only this.  If someone is not saved when they die, then they were never saved.  Beyond that, I am not in a position to judge the salvation of man.  I just know that my God is righteous and saved His elect for a reason, and that reason wasn't for them to lose their salvation.

Could this be because they are not of the elect, and that in their depraived nature they saw the fruits of being a "Christian" and thus decided to try and live a certain lifestyle rather than being truly converted?

Possibly.  Again, however, we are not commanded anywhere in the Bible to determine the salvitic disposition of anyone.  In fact, on numerous occasions, God tells us that to judge another is to condemn ourselves, or that we are not to judge another man's servant, etc.  There is a different kind of judgment we do and are commanded to do.  However, salvitic judgment is a right of God, not man.

PS. Have any of you read a short novel by Richard Belcher entitled "A Journey in Grace"? If so, your thoughts.

I have not.  Is he a reformed author? 

God bless brother,

Don

 

[Ioustinos]

Thanks for the reply Reformationist.

I have another question:

Can one go through life being saved but not knowing it?


Ps. Yes Richard Belcher is a reformed author. The novel is about a young man at bible college learning about Calvinism. Pretty creepy huh? Acutally on of my pastor friends from back home gave it to me for my birthday.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Jesaiah
Thanks for the reply Reformationist.

I have another question:

Can one go through life being saved but not knowing it?

Well, seeing as how it is God's desire that His elect worship Him and supplicate to His Majesty, and that He desires for us to grow in our knowledge of Him, and seeing as how He said He would "complete the good work He started in us" I can't imagine He'd save someone and just leave them to it. 

Ps. Yes Richard Belcher is a reformed author. The novel is about a young man at bible college learning about Calvinism. Pretty creepy huh? Acutally on of my pastor friends from back home gave it to me for my birthday.

Was it fiction?  Have you read it, and if so, did you enjoy it?

God bless,

Don

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Jesaiah
Thanks for the reply Reformationist.

I have another question:

Can one go through life being saved but not knowing it?


First, I will suggest that you listen to Don.  He knows his stuff.

Second, I will address the above question.  I don't see how.  God's tug on our heart is strong ewnough to pull us from sin and death.  Every thought I think or word I utter is now full of Him.  I don't see how someone can be saved and not know.  my personal opinion only.  I will look for scripture to back it up, but for now i must get my Ziti in the oven.

 

[Gabriel]

Dang Don.  You are quick on the draw!

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Gabriel
Dang Don.  You are quick on the draw!

Either that or I have no life outside these forums!!  Aaaaggghhh!  I have an addiction!!!!  Help me!!!!  LOL!

God bless

 

[Ioustinos]

Hi Don


It is a fictional book, but there are a lot of similarities with myself and the character. For some reason I don't think this was some coincidence that my pastor friend gave me this novel

I am enjoying it and I will post questions as they arise.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Jesaiah
It is a fictional book, but there are a lot of similarities with myself and the character. For some reason I don't think this was some coincidence that my pastor friend gave me this novel

Probably not!  

I am enjoying it and I will post questions as they arise.

Is it a book that those of us who aren't a young man at bible college learning about Calvinism would enjoy?

God bless,

Don

 

[Ioustinos]

Is it a book that those of us who aren't a young man at bible college learning about Calvinism would enjoy?

Sure, why not?

 

[Gabriel]

Jesaiah,

What denomination is the bible college you are attending?  Is it a reformed college or are you studying the reformed view on your own?

Just curious, I guess.

 

[Ioustinos]

Originally posted by Gabriel
Jesaiah,

What denomination is the bible college you are attending?  Is it a reformed college or are you studying the reformed view on your own?

Just curious, I guess.

I attend Liberty University which is Southern Baptist. But I am studying the reformed view on my own.

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Jesaiah
I attend Liberty University which is Southern Baptist. But I am studying the reformed view on my own.

Isn't it cool how the spirit leads us to the truth?  Don't get me wrong, I am not flaming Baptists.  I was raised Baptist and only learned about reformed theology a couple years ago.  It just makes so much sense, it's hard to deny it.

A good reformed author is RC Sproul.  Also, check out goodtheology.com they have The Geneva Study Bible on sale for 40% off.  The study notes and commentary were all written by reformed scholars.  It really brings to light the subjects of covenant family, election and infant baptism.

Reformed theology will not be popular with your professors and they will make convincing arguements against it.  Take it with a grain of salt and continue to seek the truth on your own.  If you have any questions we will be glad to help out.

My prayers are with you.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Gabriel
A good reformed author is RC Sproul.  Also, check out goodtheology.com they have The Geneva Study Bible on sale for 40% off.  The study notes and commentary were all written by reformed scholars.  It really brings to light the subjects of covenant family, election and infant baptism.

I'd like to second Gabriel's comments.  Sproul is awesome.  Of course, there are so many of them; Calvin, Knox, C.S. Lewis, Spurgeon, and A.W. Pink are a few to take note of.  Also, I have been using that very Bible that Gabe is referring to for about 1½ years now and I have to tell you, it is amazing.  It has the most insightful commentary and it has these "theological notes" all throughout it that go into depth on certain topics, like "The Fall," "God's Covenant of Grace," "Infant Baptism," "Original Sin and Total Depravity," "Divine Sovereignty," "Predestination and Foreknowledge" just to name a few.  There are actually 96 separate, in depth coverages of various topical themes found in the Bible.  It is a great resource that I encourage everyone to get.  It will definitely increase your knowledge and love for God.

God bless

 

[sola fide]

Jesaiah, it's so awesome to hear that you are studying reformed theology. I can probably relate to you since I am a southern baptist as well. I actually attend a Southern Baptist Church that adheres to reformed theology.
Liberty University?-is that Jerry Fallwells college?
Anyway, I wanted to second, or third, the motion of you studying Sproul, all though he is from a presbyterian background...I got to meet him this weekend...it was pretty awesome.
Anyway, I'm looking very strongly at attending Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, and it is Calvinistic in its theology. The history of the Baptist movement is reformed in nature....If you read the older confessions of faith of the baptists, they are reformed...especially the 1689 London Confession of Faith. It's only been in the last 50 to 60 years that fundamentalism has really started to eat away at the southern baptist convention.
Anyway, the reformed faith is awesome. It puts God where He belongs- lifted up...and sees man as what he is- depraved. I'd check out some stuff by Spurgeon if I were you...and possibly John Gill. Puritan writings are great also.
But some modern day baptists I'd check out if I were you are Allistair Begg, John MacArthur, and John Piper...plus R. Albert Mohler (he is president of Southern Baptist Seminary)...he's speaking at a ligonier conference with Sproul in March. MacArther has alot of good things to say, but I disagree with his views on eschaetology, in that he is a dispensationalist, and I am definitely not.
There's a new reformed movement happening within Baptist churches...it's definitely worth looking into...Sproul calls it neo-puritanism in his forward to Begg's book "for His pleasure".
I've thought about attending a presbyterian seminary, but there are definitely some baptist churches that adhere to reformed theology.
Let me encourage you to study the reformation, especially the writings of Calvin....Studying the reformers has changed my life...it's made me appreciate my faith...and God's grace more than I ever would have.
God bless.

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by sola fide
Jesaiah, it's so awesome to hear that you are studying reformed theology. I can probably relate to you since I am a southern baptist as well. I actually attend a Southern Baptist Church that adheres to reformed theology.
Liberty University?-is that Jerry Fallwells college?
Anyway, I wanted to second, or third, the motion of you studying Sproul, all though he is from a presbyterian background...I got to meet him this weekend...it was pretty awesome.
Anyway, I'm looking very strongly at attending Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, and it is Calvinistic in its theology. The history of the Baptist movement is reformed in nature....If you read the older confessions of faith of the baptists, they are reformed...especially the 1689 London Confession of Faith. It's only been in the last 50 to 60 years that fundamentalism has really started to eat away at the southern baptist convention.
Anyway, the reformed faith is awesome. It puts God where He belongs- lifted up...and sees man as what he is- depraved. I'd check out some stuff by Spurgeon if I were you...and possibly John Gill. Puritan writings are great also.
But some modern day baptists I'd check out if I were you are Allistair Begg, John MacArthur, and John Piper...plus R. Albert Mohler (he is president of Southern Baptist Seminary)...he's speaking at a ligonier conference with Sproul in March. MacArther has alot of good things to say, but I disagree with his views on eschaetology, in that he is a dispensationalist, and I am definitely not.
There's a new reformed movement happening within Baptist churches...it's definitely worth looking into...Sproul calls it neo-puritanism in his forward to Begg's book "for His pleasure".
I've thought about attending a presbyterian seminary, but there are definitely some baptist churches that adhere to reformed theology.
Let me encourage you to study the reformation, especially the writings of Calvin....Studying the reformers has changed my life...it's made me appreciate my faith...and God's grace more than I ever would have.
God bless.

Amen to you, brother.

I have a comment, not a flame at all.  This is a habit that I had and my pastor pointed out to me. 

It is the use of the word 'awesome'.  Awesome is a way to say "worthy of worship".  I would submit that while Sproul is a great man (by the grace of God), he is not worthy of worship.

We all say it.  I still do.  It's worth looking into though.  Don't you think?

 

[Ioustinos]

Hi Sola Fide

Liberty University?-is that Jerry Fallwells college?

Yes.

Puritan writings are great also.

I have only read one Puritan book which was The Reformed Pastor by Richard Baxter and I must say it was a wonderful book.

But some modern day baptists I'd check out if I were you are Allistair Begg, John MacArthur, and John Piper...

MacArthur and Begg are two of my top three favorite preachers (David Jeremiah being the third)!


After getting my BA in Biblical Studies here at LU I really want to attend the Master's Seminary to obtain my M. Div.


God Bless

 

[sola fide]

Gabriel...I don't think I actually said that Sproul was awesome...I said the reformed faith was awesome...and I would say the doctrine of justification by grace through faith in Christ alone, and the belief in the sovereignty of God is pretty awesome....maybe I shouldn't have used that word in any case. Thanks for pointing that out at any rate.
Jesaiah, that's cool you're looking at Master's...I've been in contact with them...I listened to a tape of student's testimonies, it was pretty cool.
It's a little too far away from home for me though. Anyway, you must have a pretty decent understanding of the doctrines of grace if you want to attend Master's right?
By the way, I hear the scenery at Master's is awesome...and the teachers aren't too bad either from what I hear...God bless you there, or wherever you decide to go.
By the way...have you looked at any info on Southern in Louisville?

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by sola fide
Gabriel...I don't think I actually said that Sproul was awesome...I said the reformed faith was awesome...and I would say the doctrine of justification by grace through faith in Christ alone, and the belief in the sovereignty of God is pretty awesome....maybe I shouldn't have used that word in any case. Thanks for pointing that out at any rate.
Jesaiah, that's cool you're looking at Master's...I've been in contact with them...I listened to a tape of student's testimonies, it was pretty cool.
It's a little too far away from home for me though. Anyway, you must have a pretty decent understanding of the doctrines of grace if you want to attend Master's right?
By the way, I hear the scenery at Master's is awesome...and the teachers aren't too bad either from what I hear...God bless you there, or wherever you decide to go.
By the way...have you looked at any info on Southern in Louisville?

No, you didn't.  I wasn't really trying to bust on ya.  I was mostly just screwing around.

 

[Ioustinos]

Originally posted by sola fide

Jesaiah, that's cool you're looking at Master's...I've been in contact with them...I listened to a tape of student's testimonies, it was pretty cool.
It's a little too far away from home for me though. Anyway, you must have a pretty decent understanding of the doctrines of grace if you want to attend Master's right?
By the way, I hear the scenery at Master's is awesome...and the teachers aren't too bad either from what I hear...God bless you there, or wherever you decide to go.
By the way...have you looked at any info on Southern in Louisville?

Actually I have just recently started studying Reformed theology on my own, but I know that MacArthur is Reformed.

No I haven't looked into Southern Seminary in Louisville. If I am not able to go to Master's I might go to Southeastern Seminary in my home state of North Carolina.