"For This Reason": Homosexual Desire & God's Judgement

[jimmyjimmy]

We might say, and rightly so, that homosexual activity is sinful and will be judged by God, but according to Romans 1, it seems clear that homosexuality is itself a judgement from God.

. . .because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. (Romans 1:25-27)
​

I am not saying of course that God causes sin. I'm saying that the text clearly reveals that He removes His restraint, allowing them to pursue sin and plummet to even greater depths.

My main point is that we should stop framing the argument like this: "homosexuality is a sin, and if you do it, God will condemn you", and we should begin to frame it as Paul has: God has already condemned you (John 3:18). Before I'm misunderstood, all of mankind, outside of Christ, stands condemned before God, and a condemned man needs pardon. An innocent one does not.

The hope for the homosexual, as it is for us all, is found in the good news that Christ died to redeem condemned men.

​

 

[rockytopva]

we can read into the bible and find sex something good to abstain from all together

 

[jimmyjimmy]

we can read into the bible and find sex something good to abstain from all together

I suppose that's possible; however, I don't think that, so I'm not sure what your point is.

 

[John Hyperspace]

I always thought it was weird that there were only 10 commandments at Sinai. With everything that is sin, you'd think God would've been "do no homosexuality" "do no joining before marriage" "do no gambling" "do no shaving" "do no prostitution" "do no effeminating" "do no backbiting" "do no clamouring" "do no this that and the other thing"

I wonder why He left so much unsaid; like, "peripheral"? Could there have been more on the back of the tablets that Moses didn't notice?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I always thought it was weird that there were only 10 commandments at Sinai. With everything that is sin, you'd think God would've been "do no homosexuality" "do no joining before marriage" "do no gambling" "do no shaving" "do no prostitution" "do no effeminating" "do no backbiting" "do no clamouring" "do no this that and the other thing"

I wonder why He left so much unsaid; like, "peripheral"? Could there have been more on the back of the tablets that Moses didn't notice?

Has He left it unsaid, or are you sticking your fingers in your ears?

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

I always thought it was weird that there were only 10 commandments at Sinai. With everything that is sin, you'd think God would've been "do no homosexuality" "do no joining before marriage" "do no gambling" "do no shaving" "do no prostitution" "do no effeminating" "do no backbiting" "do no clamouring" "do no this that and the other thing"

I wonder why He left so much unsaid; like, "peripheral"? Could there have been more on the back of the tablets that Moses didn't notice?

At what point is bad spelling in my internet posts a sin, and why are there no biblical commands mentioning internet etiquette?

 

[John Hyperspace]

But seriously, I was looking at that passage and it continues like this:

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate*, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Now, who are the "they" in this? Is it homosexuals? Am I misunderstanding?

*Wait, "debate"? Is that verse talking about us?!

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

We might say, and rightly so, that homosexual activity is sinful and will be judged by God, but according to Romans 1, it seems clear that homosexuality is itself a judgement from God.

. . .because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. (Romans 1:25-27)
​

I am not saying of course that God causes sin. I'm saying that the text clearly reveals that He removes His restraint, allowing them to pursue sin and plummet to even greater depths.

My main point is that we should stop framing the argument like this: "homosexuality is a sin, and if you do it, God will condemn you", and we should begin to frame it as Paul has: God has already condemned you. Before I'm misunderstood, all of mankind stands condemned before God, and a condemned man needs pardon. An innocent one does not.

The hope for the homosexual, as it is for all, is found in the good news that Christ died to redeem condemned men.

​

Wow i've read this multiple times but never looked at the verse this way.


And this is true tbh, I have actually seen this happen with someone I know, they turned away from God and the church and after all that homosexuality entered.

homosexuality wasn't what caused them to turn away, it's something they seemed to get later.


However I believe homosexuality can be a sort of born with spirit that is maybe passed down from a past generation that maybe had a lot of sexual activity. This is the case with many members in my family right now.

Like I know some people who never went to church or anything that struggled with this.


I think it's best to define homosexuality as a spirit. Also sin=anything against god basically so it's still a sin. HOwever you're right that it shouldn't just be called a sin and nothing else. IT's much deeper then simply "oh don't be homo it's a sin."

But in every case the individual's mind isn't right.


The bible also says unreightoueness shall not inherit the kingdom of god and it list things like lyers, fornicators, and then homosexuality. So it's in the same branch as this other stuff, we shouldn't uphold it higher as well.


ima study this even more though it's a real interesting subject.

 

[John Hyperspace]

Has He left it unsaid, or are you sticking your fingers in your ears?

I'm just not as sure as you that we're understanding these things properly; at least, not enough for me to pass judgment. I'll leave that to others; for now, all I can say is, love your brother, love your neighbor, love your enemies. I'm certain that love is good, and hate is bad. Other than that; I need to wait until I have all of the information to render a competent judgment on things not involving love and hate of others.

 

[Greg J.]

My main point is that we should stop framing the argument like this: "homosexuality is a sin, and if you do it, God will condemn you",

People should stop saying this because it miscommunicates a truth (in U.S. culture).

we should begin to frame it as Paul has: God has already condemned you. Before I'm misunderstood, all of mankind stands condemned before God, and a condemned man needs pardon. An innocent one does not.

We shouldn't frame it this way because it would also miscommunicate a truth.

The hope for the homosexual, as it is for all, is found in the good news that Christ died to redeem condemned men.

Replace the reference to homosexuals with a reference to all people, and you will communicate the truth. It miscommunicates the truth when you either call out a person's sin or a group of people's sin, because it means you are separating them in your mind from everyone else. That's offensive.

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11, 1984 NIV)

It's one thing to say jimmyjimmy is a sinner in need of salvation and quite another to say jimmyjimmy is a liar, a thief, and intentionally violates the laws of the land who is in need of salvation.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I never understand why straight people are so obsessed with gay folks sin. It would seem to me that us straight folk ought to be more concerned with straight folk sin. Particularly that of the person we see in the mirror.

 

[Samson Reaper]

We might say, and rightly so, that homosexual activity is sinful and will be judged by God, but according to Romans 1, it seems clear that homosexuality is itself a judgement from God.

. . .because they exchanged ....
​

This is yet another reason why Calvinism is mysterious. Who did the exchanging ? They did, reads the text. Seems to blow the idea that God predestines all thing out of the water.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonourable passions

Not prejudges (predestined ) before the foundation of the world then.
​

I am not saying of course that God causes sin.

Yes you are, in all but name.

My main point is that we should stop framing the argument like this: "homosexuality is a sin, and if you do it, God will condemn you", and we should begin to frame it as Paul has: God has already condemned you. ....

Right here for instance -Already condemned!

The hope for the homosexual, as it is for all, is found in the good news that Christ died to redeem condemned men.

In this scenario there is NO HOPE for the homosexual. God predestined this and pre condemned them.

However, in modern times, Science often overrides old theology. A gay gene has not been found but there is plenty of neural science to show that some/all are predispositioned to be what they are. In which case, these people did NOT exchange anything. So what are they held accountable for ?; pre destined, pre judged and pre condemned from something they had no choice to avoid ?

 

[AlexDTX]

We might say, and rightly so, that homosexual activity is sinful and will be judged by God, but according to Romans 1, it seems clear that homosexuality is itself a judgement from God.

. . .because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. (Romans 1:25-27)
​

I am not saying of course that God causes sin. I'm saying that the text clearly reveals that He removes His restraint, allowing them to pursue sin and plummet to even greater depths.

My main point is that we should stop framing the argument like this: "homosexuality is a sin, and if you do it, God will condemn you", and we should begin to frame it as Paul has: God has already condemned you. Before I'm misunderstood, all of mankind stands condemned before God, and a condemned man needs pardon. An innocent one does not.

The hope for the homosexual, as it is for all, is found in the good news that Christ died to redeem condemned men.

​

I think you made a good point. Being left alone in their sin means further hardening of their hearts with no hope of redemption. Christians see the action of sins more than the state of sin as an issue. A homosexual and an adulterer are both destructive actions, but their damnation is being sin, not doing sin. Without the new birth changing our nature damnation is already the path everyone is on.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I think you made a good point. Being left alone in their sin means further hardening of their hearts with no hope of redemption. Christians see the action of sins more than the state of sin as an issue. A homosexual and an adulterer are both destructive actions, but their damnation is being sin, not doing sin. Without the new birth changing our nature damnation is already the path everyone is on.

Yes. When God turns you over, He essentially says, "thy will be done".

Sin is our problem. Sins are just the symptoms.

Our situation is such that we need far more than moral reform. We need rebirth. Jesus sarcastically took a jab a Nicodemus for not understanding this.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I never understand why straight people are so obsessed with gay folks sin. It would seem to me that us straight folk ought to be more concerned with straight folk sin. Particularly that of the person we see in the mirror.

You don't seem to have read the OP very carefully. Also, this and the related issue of so closed, "transgender" are the watershed issues of the day, which is why we need to discuss them.

 

[seeking.IAM]

You don't seem to have read the OP very carefully. Also, this and the related issue of so closed, "transgender" are the watershed issues of the day, which is why we need to discuss them.

You caught me. I probably didn't. I tire rather easily of this topic. I doubt it is the most important thing Christians need to be talking about. But, carry on.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I doubt it is the most important thing Christians need to be talking about.

I don't either.

Today is my one-year anniversary on CF. If posted over 6,000 times, and begun many threads. Only a few have addressed this topic.

I brought this up to look at the subject from an angle which I think has been overlooked, and I did so to possibly talk about the best biblical approach to the subject when we come across it in day-to-day life.

In short, although it does single out homosexuality, this isn't a stone-throwing thread, and the OP should make that clear.