For The Orthodox Faithful Who Are Confused About Covid Vaccines: Orthodox Talks

[Dorothea]

Our late priest (reposed) and his wife tried for years to have children and it just never happened. So, they adopted a baby son. Very soon afterwards, she became pregnant with a daughter. I found this to be a curious thing. It almost seems plausible that the anxiety over not being able to conceive a child may have had something to do with things. But I don't have any real evidence of this. Her pregnancy soon after the adoption might be entirely coincidental.

I've heard a few stories from couples who had that happen for them too.

 

[Dorothea]

My wife and I lost our first child in miscarriage. We then struggled for some years to have a child. Genetic testing showed she was alpha thalassemia and I beta thalassemia.

we went to the monastery of St Irene Chrysovalantou and cried/prayed before her holy miraculous icon there, for her intercession). My wife followed the instructions of eating a small piece of the blessed apple for three days in a row.

within two months, we were pregnant with our child.

Some months later we were in Greece and my wife felt for the first time the quickening (the baby movements felt for the first time).

We didn’t find out until later that morning that it was the very feast day of St Irene Chrysovalantou! Needless to say, St Irene has a very close place to our hearts.

Glory to God! Such a beautiful and amazing story! Thanks for sharing this, and to others who have shared similar ones! Love it!

 

[truefiction1]

We don’t, but that is beautiful. It sounds like a great program.

I’m looking up some more about other Orthodox parishes that implemented it, and I just found an article from Dr Mary Ford about it. It looks like Bishop David of Alaska also recommends it.

I would love for my godson and goddaughters to have something like this, and it would be something I’d love to help with. I was already thinking about stepping into some of the Children’s Education at our parish. I may mention / suggest this as well to Fr.

Thank you!

Well, if the opportunity ever comes your way, maybe you'll consider attending Orthodox Catechesis of the Good Shepherd formation sessions. At least once, and then figure out from this encounter if you're among those called by Him to suffer the little children to come to Him. It's a huge commitment though.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Abnormal relations, yes.

To make children? Abnormal?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

yes, it certainly can be. husbands and wives can do all sorts of sinful stuff to produce children.

Such as? Maybe my imagination is poor...

 

[prodromos]

Such as? Maybe my imagination is poor...

Consider it a blessing.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Consider it a blessing.

Maybe so! What about married couples using artificial insemination? Just trying to understand where the line is...

 

[rusmeister]

So IYO having relations with your wife in an effort to produce children is a perversion? Interesting...


To make children? Abnormal?

This strikes me as not reading or choosing words carefully, AND perhaps that the philosophy of what sexual relations ARE and ought to be according to Church teaching has not been thought out.


I think it obvious that I never suggested that copulation in the marriage bed is bad. The Church tells us that it is good. So I would think you would need to reword your questions.


There have been threads in the past, and people have tried to discuss it. Usually, someone goes off into an excess of unnecessary detail.


The problem is that we walked into the Church from the world, and nearly all of us have brought some of our baggage, or ideas acquired in the world, and think them to be compatible with or even to BE the teaching of the Church, when in fact it does not have the support of the consensus of the fathers.


And so, thanks to the wide spread of inappropriate contentography in our time, something Anthony Comstock successfully fought off in the US, so that for nearly a century, until the “sexual revolution”, inappropriate contentography was only available in forms that indicated social shame. Since then, many ideas of many different forms of achieving sexual pleasure that are NOT connected to the God-created reproductive process have come to be seen as acceptable to Christians, and even to Orthodox Christians.


In this absence of a clear philosophy about what the sexual relations are, people have come to imagine pleasure as primary, and childbirth as optional and something that may be openly avoided while engaging even in blessed intercourse. The question is, what do they think is the purpose of sexual organs, and the very desire of the sexes one for the other? The answers generally show that they put pleasure and “bonding” first, and childbirth very much a distant second, with a thousand reasons trotted out justifying that short-circuiting of the natural process in order to obtain pleasure.


That kind of makes us at fault, at least as contributors to the problem, by insisting on perverted sexual relations as consistent with our Faith. Hence sodomy, and other things better not named, have become normal even to publicly express and talk about, and the approval of sodomic same-sex sexual relations is an outcome of our own permissive attitude that seeks what may be “allowed” rather than learn what we OUGHT to desire. And I have contributed to that myself, so am not guiltless.


And yet, not everything is bad or perverted. If an operation or a medicine can cause the natural function to work where it did not before, that is clearly in line with the Orthodox view of doctors and physical healing.


And that doesn’t even begin to touch on the inevitable “playing God”, deciding when, how, and how many children one will have, and all of the problems people raised about the resulting fertilized embryos. We are supposed to see children as a gift, to be given or withheld, and not a “right” driven by our own will and desires. And so, we made “surrogate motherhood” and same-sex couples “adopting” such unnaturally produced children, and then we wonder why these evils are proliferating.

So, no, modern bishops, synods and “Orthodox bioethicists” don’t impress me as even close to infallible.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

This strikes me as not reading or choosing words carefully, AND perhaps that the philosophy of what sexual relations ARE and ought to be according to Church teaching has not been thought out.


I think it obvious that I never suggested that copulation in the marriage bed is bad. The Church tells us that it is good. So I would think you would need to reword your questions.


There have been threads in the past, and people have tried to discuss it. Usually, someone goes off into an excess of unnecessary detail.


The problem is that we walked into the Church from the world, and nearly all of us have brought some of our baggage, or ideas acquired in the world, and think them to be compatible with or even to BE the teaching of the Church, when in fact it does not have the support of the consensus of the fathers.


And so, thanks to the wide spread of inappropriate contentography in our time, something Anthony Comstock successfully fought off in the US, so that for nearly a century, until the “sexual revolution”, inappropriate contentography was only available in forms that indicated social shame. Since then, many ideas of many different forms of achieving sexual pleasure that are NOT connected to the God-created reproductive process have come to be seen as acceptable to Christians, and even to Orthodox Christians.


In this absence of a clear philosophy about what the sexual relations are, people have come to imagine pleasure as primary, and childbirth as optional and something that may be openly avoided while engaging even in blessed intercourse. The question is, what do they think is the purpose of sexual organs, and the very desire of the sexes one for the other? The answers generally show that they put pleasure and “bonding” first, and childbirth very much a distant second, with a thousand reasons trotted out justifying that short-circuiting of the natural process in order to obtain pleasure.


That kind of makes us at fault, at least as contributors to the problem, by insisting on perverted sexual relations as consistent with our Faith. Hence sodomy, and other things better not named, have become normal even to publicly express and talk about, and the approval of sodomic same-sex sexual relations is an outcome of our own permissive attitude that seeks what may be “allowed” rather than learn what we OUGHT to desire. And I have contributed to that myself, so am not guiltless.


And yet, not everything is bad or perverted. If an operation or a medicine can cause the natural function to work where it did not before, that is clearly in line with the Orthodox view of doctors and physical healing.


And that doesn’t even begin to touch on the inevitable “playing God”, deciding when, how, and how many children one will have, and all of the problems people raised about the resulting fertilized embryos. We are supposed to see children as a gift, to be given or withheld, and not a “right” driven by our own will and desires. And so, we made “surrogate motherhood” and same-sex couples “adopting” such unnaturally produced children, and then we wonder why these evils are proliferating.

So, no, modern bishops, synods and “Orthodox bioethicists” don’t impress me as even close to infallible.

Interesting Rus. However, I am not sure how inappropriate contentography has anything to do with my questions...

 

[SamanthaAnastasia]

This strikes me as not reading or choosing words carefully, AND perhaps that the philosophy of what sexual relations ARE and ought to be according to Church teaching has not been thought out.


I think it obvious that I never suggested that copulation in the marriage bed is bad. The Church tells us that it is good. So I would think you would need to reword your questions.


There have been threads in the past, and people have tried to discuss it. Usually, someone goes off into an excess of unnecessary detail.


The problem is that we walked into the Church from the world, and nearly all of us have brought some of our baggage, or ideas acquired in the world, and think them to be compatible with or even to BE the teaching of the Church, when in fact it does not have the support of the consensus of the fathers.


And so, thanks to the wide spread of inappropriate contentography in our time, something Anthony Comstock successfully fought off in the US, so that for nearly a century, until the “sexual revolution”, inappropriate contentography was only available in forms that indicated social shame. Since then, many ideas of many different forms of achieving sexual pleasure that are NOT connected to the God-created reproductive process have come to be seen as acceptable to Christians, and even to Orthodox Christians.


In this absence of a clear philosophy about what the sexual relations are, people have come to imagine pleasure as primary, and childbirth as optional and something that may be openly avoided while engaging even in blessed intercourse. The question is, what do they think is the purpose of sexual organs, and the very desire of the sexes one for the other? The answers generally show that they put pleasure and “bonding” first, and childbirth very much a distant second, with a thousand reasons trotted out justifying that short-circuiting of the natural process in order to obtain pleasure.


That kind of makes us at fault, at least as contributors to the problem, by insisting on perverted sexual relations as consistent with our Faith. Hence sodomy, and other things better not named, have become normal even to publicly express and talk about, and the approval of sodomic same-sex sexual relations is an outcome of our own permissive attitude that seeks what may be “allowed” rather than learn what we OUGHT to desire. And I have contributed to that myself, so am not guiltless.


And yet, not everything is bad or perverted. If an operation or a medicine can cause the natural function to work where it did not before, that is clearly in line with the Orthodox view of doctors and physical healing.


And that doesn’t even begin to touch on the inevitable “playing God”, deciding when, how, and how many children one will have, and all of the problems people raised about the resulting fertilized embryos. We are supposed to see children as a gift, to be given or withheld, and not a “right” driven by our own will and desires. And so, we made “surrogate motherhood” and same-sex couples “adopting” such unnaturally produced children, and then we wonder why these evils are proliferating.

So, no, modern bishops, synods and “Orthodox bioethicists” don’t impress me as even close to infallible.

Idk I thought that the Orthodox Church viewed the marriage bed as a sacred way to bond between husband and wife and children were the natural result of that union. It should be desired along with bonding and sacrifice. These things don’t have a hierarchy but are all at the same level. If that makes sense

 

[ArmyMatt]

Such as? Maybe my imagination is poor...

pick any fetish because that’s what turns one or both of them on

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

pick any fetish because that’s what turns one or both of them on

Huh? This is a married couple trying to have a baby...I don't understand what you mean

 

[ArmyMatt]

Huh? This is a married couple trying to have a baby...I don't understand what you mean

okay, a married couple brings a third person into the bedroom to help both get turned on, even though only the married couple will do the deed.

 

[rusmeister]

Interesting Rus. However, I am not sure how inappropriate contentography has anything to do with my questions...

You know, it doesn't take a lot of effort to inquire as to how the sperm is generally acquired from the prospective father. You might even show me an exception; I will show you an overwhelming rule. These unnatural ways of producing children inevitably lead straight to horrific abuse. A fat wise man once said, "We have learned to do a great many clever things. The next great task is to learn not to do them."

It really is not complicated. The end runs man tries to make around nature turn to evil, just like in Tolkien's story attempts to use the Ring for good invariably become corrupted. Man is Fallen. And so because our society has allowed these things at all, now we have tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of insane people who want to produce their own children to order.

I mentioned inappropriate contentography because the fetishes Fr Matt referred to really multiplied from that, in an atmosphere of increasing assumption that the primary purpose of sex is pleasure, not procreation. Making possible the artificial production of children turns to evil, plain and simple. You can't avoid violating some aspect of morality, and even when you think you have, you've opened the door for a thousand other people who aren't so scrupulous.

 

[rusmeister]

Here's someone who carried the cross of childlessness:

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

okay, a married couple brings a third person into the bedroom to help both get turned on, even though only the married couple will do the deed.

Huh? If they need to do that to conceive a child maybe they should not be married in the fist place! Jeeez!

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You know, it doesn't take a lot of effort to inquire as to how the sperm is generally acquired from the prospective father. You might even show me an exception; I will show you an overwhelming rule. These unnatural ways of producing children inevitably lead straight to horrific abuse. A fat wise man once said, "We have learned to do a great many clever things. The next great task is to learn not to do them."

It really is not complicated. The end runs man tries to make around nature turn to evil, just like in Tolkien's story attempts to use the Ring for good invariably become corrupted. Man is Fallen. And so because our society has allowed these things at all, now we have tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of insane people who want to produce their own children to order.

I mentioned inappropriate contentography because the fetishes Fr Matt referred to really multiplied from that, in an atmosphere of increasing assumption that the primary purpose of sex is pleasure, not procreation. Making possible the artificial production of children turns to evil, plain and simple. You can't avoid violating some aspect of morality, and even when you think you have, you've opened the door for a thousand other people who aren't so scrupulous.

OK. I was talking about just the husband and wife...trying to conceive a child...not any of that...but I see your point that other things can happen

 

[ArmyMatt]

Huh? If they need to do that to conceive a child maybe they should not be married in the fist place! Jeeez!

of course they don’t have to. some choose to because they like it. even husbands and wives trying to conceive can defile the marriage bed.

 

[rusmeister]

OK. I was talking about just the husband and wife...trying to conceive a child...not any of that...but I see your point that other things can happen

I think understanding is a matter of looking into the details of what IVF normally entails. You would see how "the third person" gets involved, how immoral means of obtaining sperm are the norm, and what results from trying to do everything outside of the woman's body. Even the well-intentioned Christian trying to do things morally winds up having to participate in immoral processes. (to say nothing of their unnatural nature)

If you want to find out, it's not hard. I found stuff like this in seconds:
In vitro fertilization (IVF) - Mayo Clinic
3 Ways to Collect Sperm for Analysis - wikiHow

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

of course they don’t have to. some choose to because they like it. even husbands and wives trying to conceive can defile the marriage bed.

I guess anything can happen but I would think these things are not the norm...