For The Orthodox Faithful Who Are Confused About Covid Vaccines: Orthodox Talks

[ArmyMatt]

OK, you hear "this is what The Church teaches" and then you have this. So who ultimately decides...the RCC has the pope for that...us? We do not have any recent Ecumenical Councils...

the Church as a whole. the people can reject error as the final check.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I am...your are a priest What is your thoughts on them?

I disagree with them for a lot of the reasons All4Christ said

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

the Church as a whole. the people can reject error as the final check.

and if they go against "what the church teaches"?? Can the laity change it?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I disagree with them for a lot of the reasons All4Christ said

I understand that but what do you think should be done regarding it? It ends with just disagreeing with it?

 

[ArmyMatt]

and if they go against "what the church teaches"?? Can the laity change it?

yes, because the laity is preserving the Church. although, at least one bishop has always sided with the laity. but yes, councils have been overridden by the people.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I understand that but what do you think should be done regarding it? It ends with just disagreeing with it?

as a priest, let the bishops deal with it. I voice my opposition when asked by a bishop.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I found this:

In-Vitro Fertilization
“Married couples may use medical means to enhance conception of their common children, but the use of sperm or ova other than that of the married couple who both take responsibility for their offspring is forbidden.” 1992 OCA Synod of Bishops’ Affirmations, “On Marriage, Family, Sexuality and the Sanctity of Life”—The Procreation of Children

The position in Judaism is similar to that above but with more stipulations. I post this just as a comparison for information purposes only, I know some here do not care what Judaism says about anything . Be fruitful and multiply...

It is generally agreed by rabbinic authorities that IVF and related techniques are acceptable for Jewish couples when the husband's sperm and the wife's eggs are used.

(1) There is some controversy regarding how sperm may be procured for the procedure. Since there is a biblical admonition regarding the "spilling of seed", some rabbis insist that the husband may not [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to provide a specimen. However, since the intention of the procedure is specifically to enhance procreation and the sperm is not being wasted, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to produce the sperm may indeed be permissible.

(2) When more than one fertilized egg is implanted into the woman, this may result in a multiple pregnancy. When there are three or more fetuses growing in the womb, this results in a high risk pregnancy, and fetal reduction, or selectively eliminating one or more of the fetuses, may be recommended. Is this halachically permissible? Ending the life of a fetus is not considered murder by halachic definition, but it is not permissible either. This would only be permitted if the doctor has determined that some fetuses must be eliminated or they will all die. Even then, the decision is a very sensitive one and must be made by the doctor.

(3) When IVF is performed the woman is stimulated by hormone treatment so her ovaries can produce up to 20 eggs per cycle. The eggs are harvested and fertilized, but only three or four can be used in that cycle. The rest can be preserved by freezing. How does Jewish law address the issue of extra embryos? The fate of extra embryos could include: (A) Use of them by the original couple to establish future pregnancies (rabbis affirm this use). (B) Destruction of the extra embryos (permissible halachically if this is done passively, by letting them thaw out and die on their own). (C) The use of these extra embryos for research. Since this is an active process and results, ultimately, in their destruction, this is not generally acceptable by Orthodox rabbis. (D) Donation of the extra embryos to another infertile couple. This option is not approved by many Orthodox rabbis because the "adopted" child may inadvertently marry his/her genetic sibling, resulting in incest.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

yes, because the laity is preserving the Church. although, at least one bishop has always sided with the laity. but yes, councils have been overridden by the people.

Can that happen now? I dont think so with the power the clergy wield??

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

the Church as a whole. the people can reject error as the final check.

and if the clergy disagree? Can the laity change doctrine against the wishes of the clergy?

 

[ArmyMatt]

and if the clergy disagree? Can the laity change doctrine against the wishes of the clergy?

in this case it’s not the laity changing anything, but then not following erroneous clergy which has happened in the past.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Can that happen now? I dont think so with the power the clergy wield??

yes because the Spirit of Truth is almighty, unlike any amount of clergy

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

yes because the Spirit of Truth is almighty, unlike any amount of clergy

So you are saying that in the end it will correct itself?

 

[Andrei D]

The position in Judaism is similar to that above but with more stipulations. I post this just as a comparison for information purposes only, I know some here do not care what Judaism says about anything . Be fruitful and multiply...

It is generally agreed by rabbinic authorities that IVF and related techniques are acceptable for Jewish couples when the husband's sperm and the wife's eggs are used.

(1) There is some controversy regarding how sperm may be procured for the procedure. Since there is a biblical admonition regarding the "spilling of seed", some rabbis insist that the husband may not [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to provide a specimen. However, since the intention of the procedure is specifically to enhance procreation and the sperm is not being wasted, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to produce the sperm may indeed be permissible.

(2) When more than one fertilized egg is implanted into the woman, this may result in a multiple pregnancy. When there are three or more fetuses growing in the womb, this results in a high risk pregnancy, and fetal reduction, or selectively eliminating one or more of the fetuses, may be recommended. Is this halachically permissible? Ending the life of a fetus is not considered murder by halachic definition, but it is not permissible either. This would only be permitted if the doctor has determined that some fetuses must be eliminated or they will all die. Even then, the decision is a very sensitive one and must be made by the doctor.

(3) When IVF is performed the woman is stimulated by hormone treatment so her ovaries can produce up to 20 eggs per cycle. The eggs are harvested and fertilized, but only three or four can be used in that cycle. The rest can be preserved by freezing. How does Jewish law address the issue of extra embryos? The fate of extra embryos could include: (A) Use of them by the original couple to establish future pregnancies (rabbis affirm this use). (B) Destruction of the extra embryos (permissible halachically if this is done passively, by letting them thaw out and die on their own). (C) The use of these extra embryos for research. Since this is an active process and results, ultimately, in their destruction, this is not generally acceptable by Orthodox rabbis. (D) Donation of the extra embryos to another infertile couple. This option is not approved by many Orthodox rabbis because the "adopted" child may inadvertently marry his/her genetic sibling, resulting in incest.

Very interesting!

I would think though that I could never agree agree with "fetal reduction". Luckily right now that is no longer necessary depending on technique.

 

[ArmyMatt]

So you are saying that in the end it will correct itself?

in the end the Spirit will ensure it stays correct

 

[All4Christ]

It must be very painful to want to bear children and not be able to. I don't know what I could say about this that would turn that pain into serene joy. God is able to show, anyone who truly asks, how this can occur, I believe. There might be other ways of becoming mothers and fathers which bring unspeakable joy that is greater even than the joy of giving birth. I don't know.

I am praying for this every day. (It doesn’t take away the pain - at least not yet. It does make it more bearable though.). Thank you for the encouragement.

 

[Dorothea]

As you can probably guess, we struggle with infertility and we approached my priest about this (the snowflake adoption scenario) after failing to conceive with the standard Church approved treatments. We knew traditional IVF was off limits but thought this might be okay considering Orthodoxy’s high value of life. It is one of the situations where I needed to obey the spiritual guidance of my priest and bishop. It’s not always easy to do, as following our own logic and thoughts is the standard process for making decisions in modern society. That’s one reason I respect and value that obedience and trust with a priest and/or spiritual father.

Even other Orthodox friends asked why we approached our priest about this for advice and why we feel we should be obedient to the guidance we received. That’s what we are supposed to do though - ask our spiritual fathers to help guide us in our decisions and our faith.

Yes, that makes sense to me - asking advice from your spiritual father, and of course, once he gives it, yes, we are to do our best to abide by it through obedience. I know that had to have been very difficult to do with what you and your husband were and have been going through. I admire you.

 

[Dorothea]

None, that's not what I meant, forgive me. The argument you used (that adopting an embryo-child would have a social implication - encourage the IVF practice, so it is better to let those embryo-children die) can be interpreted as based on the premise that saving the individual life is less important than "the greater good".

My admittedly small mind was very convinced by @All4Christ even if maybe she didn't intend that, namely that the church might want to consider encouraging people to mass adopt the embryos, even couples who are not infertile. I see it as: there are a bunch of babies on death row. We could save them, but it could send the "wrong message"... Ugh.

What would be the downstream effect of saving all those lives? No one knows. It even might be the proper thing to do for the "greater good" although we are never able to say that; but it could signal that we truly believe life begins at conception. The alternative is not doing anything, and that clearly doesn't help.

Oh, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[rusmeister]

The position in Judaism is similar to that above but with more stipulations. I post this just as a comparison for information purposes only, I know some here do not care what Judaism says about anything . Be fruitful and multiply...

It is generally agreed by rabbinic authorities that IVF and related techniques are acceptable for Jewish couples when the husband's sperm and the wife's eggs are used.

(1) There is some controversy regarding how sperm may be procured for the procedure. Since there is a biblical admonition regarding the "spilling of seed", some rabbis insist that the husband may not [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to provide a specimen. However, since the intention of the procedure is specifically to enhance procreation and the sperm is not being wasted, [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to produce the sperm may indeed be permissible.

(2) When more than one fertilized egg is implanted into the woman, this may result in a multiple pregnancy. When there are three or more fetuses growing in the womb, this results in a high risk pregnancy, and fetal reduction, or selectively eliminating one or more of the fetuses, may be recommended. Is this halachically permissible? Ending the life of a fetus is not considered murder by halachic definition, but it is not permissible either. This would only be permitted if the doctor has determined that some fetuses must be eliminated or they will all die. Even then, the decision is a very sensitive one and must be made by the doctor.

(3) When IVF is performed the woman is stimulated by hormone treatment so her ovaries can produce up to 20 eggs per cycle. The eggs are harvested and fertilized, but only three or four can be used in that cycle. The rest can be preserved by freezing. How does Jewish law address the issue of extra embryos? The fate of extra embryos could include: (A) Use of them by the original couple to establish future pregnancies (rabbis affirm this use). (B) Destruction of the extra embryos (permissible halachically if this is done passively, by letting them thaw out and die on their own). (C) The use of these extra embryos for research. Since this is an active process and results, ultimately, in their destruction, this is not generally acceptable by Orthodox rabbis. (D) Donation of the extra embryos to another infertile couple. This option is not approved by many Orthodox rabbis because the "adopted" child may inadvertently marry his/her genetic sibling, resulting in incest.

Wow. Makes me glad I’m not a modern Jew. The legalism is rife.
Everything here is about what is permissible. No consideration about what the nature of sex and the relation of the sexes in marriage. No consideration of the perversion necessary to obtain the sperm. ”

Is this from an Orthodox Jewish source, a Liberal one, or what?

 

[Dorothea]

It is 100% not accepted in any form, even if it is the no-traditional path of only fertilizing 1 or two embryos (mini-IVF), or implanting existing embryos.

There are multiple problems.

One, the excess embryos are often discarded or donated to people outside the marital union.

Two, it removes procreation from the marital act.

There are other reasons, but I think those are the primary concrete issues. Other issues are ones ones that Rus mentioned.

I've heard this is the same thing for surrogacy. Because it ends up involving three people in the procreation instead of the two married couple. Besides that, I've always found it rather odd, and the emotional and painful circumstances that can and have happened with doing this are problems, too, imo.

 

[rusmeister]

OK, you hear "this is what The Church teaches" and then you have this. So who ultimately decides...the RCC has the pope for that...us? We do not have any recent Ecumenical Councils...

This is the essential problem of authority. The only legitimate authority is that which is truly in line with the historic mind of the Church, the consensus of the fathers. That’s why patristics so important.

The mere fact that a synod has pronounced something is no guarantee of being truly in line with Church teaching. I have even seen living metropolitans step outside of those boundaries in rather clear contradiction to patriotic teaching. The modern man converts and walks into the Church bringing most of his modern baggage of thought and beliefs with him, and thinking them to be consistent with Church teaching, or even to BE Church teaching. (That even goes for clergy.) The Church can cure us over time and we can come to shed the thinking that we once thought good and right, but is actually opposed to the mind and traditional teachings of the Church. But not if we hold a mindset of “What can I get away with doing?” “Can I wear a nose ring, or a halter top to Liturgy, or whatever?” It’s fairly normal for a convert to gradually change to more modest dress, and in a good parish, no one flies at people who haven’t figured out yet that they ought to actually desire to be modest, rather than try to hold on to the things that they came to see as normal in the world. That applies to everything. So even a modern synod is extremely likely to have bishops who hold modernist, rather than patriotic views, who are out of sync in one way or another with the mind of the Church. The whole question is, is what they are saying in line with that or not?