For The Orthodox Faithful Who Are Confused About Covid Vaccines: Orthodox Talks

[SamanthaAnastasia]

Trying to type something and hope it’s not suddenly erased...
Your question is a fair one. I would point out that it’s starting point is in the middle of another process. I would say that that other process - that of IVF in general - is evil, and you are essentially proposing to do good to at least partially redeem the evil in the middle of that process. The real answer is that the other, evil process should be stopped. If you, in 1945, are bursting into the German concentration camps to liberate the prisoners, then you are similarly seeking to do good in the middle of another process that some people once thought good, but others can see that it is not. And so, for a short time, you use the camp’s for good, to continue to House the former prisoners until they can be properly repatriated. So while yes, if you are stopping an evil and want to do good, absolutely, but make sure to stop the evil that made it all possible in the first place. That’s all part of the question of what IVF is, and what the sexual ideal is, and how it is one of the many ways people fall away from that ideal, and worse, one that is fully amenable to eugenics, which the Nazis mastered so well.

You can always type it in a another program then copy and paste just to make sure the site won’t delete it by accident.

 

[Andrei D]

What portion of my comment was pro-abortion?

None, that's not what I meant, forgive me. The argument you used (that adopting an embryo-child would have a social implication - encourage the IVF practice, so it is better to let those embryo-children die) can be interpreted as based on the premise that saving the individual life is less important than "the greater good".

My admittedly small mind was very convinced by @All4Christ even if maybe she didn't intend that, namely that the church might want to consider encouraging people to mass adopt the embryos, even couples who are not infertile. I see it as: there are a bunch of babies on death row. We could save them, but it could send the "wrong message"... Ugh.

What would be the downstream effect of saving all those lives? No one knows. It even might be the proper thing to do for the "greater good" although we are never able to say that; but it could signal that we truly believe life begins at conception. The alternative is not doing anything, and that clearly doesn't help.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

None, that's not what I meant, forgive me. The argument you used (that adopting an embryo-child would have a social implication - encourage the IVF practice, so it is better to let those embryo-children die) can be interpreted as based on the premise that saving the individual life is less important than "the greater good".

My admittedly small mind was very convinced by @All4Christ even if maybe she didn't intend that, namely that the church might want to consider encouraging people to mass adopt the embryos, even couples who are not infertile. I see it as: there are a bunch of babies on death row. We could save them, but it could send the "wrong message"... Ugh.

What would be the downstream effect of saving all those lives? No one knows. It even might be the proper thing to do for the "greater good" although we are never able to say that; but it could signal that we truly believe life begins at conception. The alternative is not doing anything, and that clearly doesn't help.

What is the Orthodox church's stance on IVF? I know women can have naturally fertilized eggs that never implant just the same as egg implantation in IVF. The end result is the same. Some implant and grow while others do not.

 

[All4Christ]

What is the Orthodox church's stance on IVF? I know women can have naturally fertilized eggs that never implant just the same as egg implantation in IVF. The end result is the same. Some implant and grow while others do not.

It is 100% not accepted in any form, even if it is the no-traditional path of only fertilizing 1 or two embryos (mini-IVF), or implanting existing embryos.

There are multiple problems.

One, the excess embryos are often discarded or donated to people outside the marital union.

Two, it removes procreation from the marital act.

There are other reasons, but I think those are the primary concrete issues. Other issues are ones ones that Rus mentioned.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

It is 100% not accepted in any form, even if it is the no-traditional path of only fertilizing 1 or two embryos (mini-IVF), or implanting existing embryos.

I have heard of priests giving people approval for IVF and baptizing the resulting children...

 

[All4Christ]

I have heard of priests giving people approval for IVF...

Okay. At least in the Russian Church and OCA, it is 100% not accepted. I got a very clear no from my priest for the reasons I added in my edit above. He talked to the bishop and looked at church rules / guidelines / ethical ‘councils’, etc.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Okay. At least in the Russian Church and OCA, it is 100% not accepted.

Not true, these were under OCA and EP...

 

[All4Christ]

Not true, these were under OCA and EP...

Guidelines that the Church has given in their councils for OCA say no. I have no clue about the EP. What individual priests do, or perhaps bishops, is outside of what I can speak to. Official guidance follows what I said. After work, I can grab the resources that confirm what I said.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Guidelines that the Church has given in their councils for OCA say no. I have no clue about the EP. What individual priests do, or perhaps bishops, is outside of what I can speak to. Official guidance follows what I said. After work, I can grab the resources that confirm what I said.

Interesting

 

[All4Christ]

Interesting

Believe me, I have many times that I wish it was different. Knowing the percentage of likelihood for it to work with IVF and having to say no to all REI doctor recommendations for the standard procedure in my medical situation is tough. At times, it seem like ignorance would be bliss. I need to talk to my priest first though, and he makes sure to guide us in what the Church teaches. It is a fairly new concept in the life of the Church, so I know a lot of discussions have taken place about it to determine what is or not acceptable with ART.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Guidelines that the Church has given in their councils for OCA say no. I have no clue about the EP. What individual priests do, or perhaps bishops, is outside of what I can speak to. Official guidance follows what I said. After work, I can grab the resources that confirm what I said.

I found this:

In-Vitro Fertilization
“Married couples may use medical means to enhance conception of their common children, but the use of sperm or ova other than that of the married couple who both take responsibility for their offspring is forbidden.” 1992 OCA Synod of Bishops’ Affirmations, “On Marriage, Family, Sexuality and the Sanctity of Life”—The Procreation of Children

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I also found this. Could be regarding the Covid shot???

“All efforts to heal physical and spiritual sickness, to alleviate physical and spiritual suffering, and to prevent physical and spiritual death are to be supported and defended.”
1992 OCA Synod of Bishops’ Affirmations, “On Marriage, Family, Sexuality and the Sanctity of Life”—Sickness, Suffering and Death

 

[rusmeister]

You can always type it in a another program then copy and paste just to make sure the site won’t delete it by accident.

Thanks!
(But it isn't terribly convenient, though granted that it's not as bad as losing whole texts.)

 

[All4Christ]

I found this:

In-Vitro Fertilization
“Married couples may use medical means to enhance conception of their common children, but the use of sperm or ova other than that of the married couple who both take responsibility for their offspring is forbidden.” 1992 OCA Synod of Bishops’ Affirmations, “On Marriage, Family, Sexuality and the Sanctity of Life”—The Procreation of Children

Yes. I was told that it was a follow on to that in conjunction with a Russian synod. I am looking for it, but I am wondering if it was a diocesan decision that finalized it? Either way, I received a 100% no to it with the indication that it was more than his opinion and that it was what the OCA taught.

@ArmyMatt Any insight?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yes. I was told that it was a follow on to that in conjunction with a Russian synod. I am looking for it, but I am wondering if it was a diocesan decision that finalized it? Either way, I received a 100% no to it with the indication that it was more than his opinion and that it was what the OCA taught.

@ArmyMatt Any insight?

I have heard a 100% no for this as well.

 

[rusmeister]

I found this:

In-Vitro Fertilization
“Married couples may use medical means to enhance conception of their common children, but the use of sperm or ova other than that of the married couple who both take responsibility for their offspring is forbidden.” 1992 OCA Synod of Bishops’ Affirmations, “On Marriage, Family, Sexuality and the Sanctity of Life”—The Procreation of Children

Can a synod of bishops ever err? You bet your booties it can.

Even this seems to me to be a lawyerly legalistic way to find a way to get something approved that is philosophically really bad, and runs against our core teachings and the nature of the relations of the sexes, even if kept strictly within marriage (which society won't, for sure, even if Christians would). It can seem kind and benevolent at its best, but still creates a really slippery slope which all too soon after permissiveness is displayed, people get on their toboggans and slide down it, with varying intentions, but willy-nilly come under the delusion of playing God. I will decide whether I can have children or not! It's hardly even a step from that to deciding that one will have a boy but not a girl (or vice-versa), to being willing to have one but not three, things that the Church has never seen as the prerogative of the parents. It ought to be illegal as the place prepared for the devil and his angels.

I am sure that someone, somewhere, has done good in a Christian way by it and am not judging any individual case I am speaking about what it will do to us, both as a society and as the Church. But it is SO prone to abuse that it will certainly destroy the society that allows it, and ultimately drag down the parishes where it is allowed. And that has to be said in the face of the pain that childless couples experience. It IS pain, and grief. But what I've said is true.


And all of that is completely OT. Sorry about that.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Can a synod of bishops ever err? You bet your booties it can.

OK, you hear "this is what The Church teaches" and then you have this. So who ultimately decides...the RCC has the pope for that...us? We do not have any recent Ecumenical Councils...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I have heard a 100% no for this as well.

So what about those multiple OCA and EP clergy that allow it?

 

[ArmyMatt]

So what about those multiple OCA and EP clergy that allow it?

ask them

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

ask them

I am...your are a priest What is your thoughts on them?