For the christians who believe in evolution.

[LewisWildermuth]

You did misquote the Nicean creed and you did say that there was only one creation story, you have been proven wrong both times. I do not have to twist those facts.

 

[tericl2]

Originally posted by LewisWildermuth
You did misquote the Nicean creed and you did say that there was only one creation story, you have been proven wrong both times. I do not have to twist those facts.

But you do have to twist other facts? By the way, you have yet to PROVE anything. You have not proven my stance on Genesis 1 and 2 wrong.

Yes, I did "quote" the Nicene Creed wrong. Although it was not a quote ( were you twisting that or not?), and I corrected myself. So, you didn't even use your great power of deduction to find that mistake...I gave it to you by my own admission. Oh, and my own correction. See, I'll admit when I am wrong. Will you?

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Yes you did corect yourself, that much is true but you still infered that I was not a beliver because I did not share your point of view on Gen 1 and 2.

And I am fully able to admit that I am wrong, now where am I wrong?

 

[tericl2]

Originally posted by LewisWildermuth
Yes you did corect yourself, that much is true but you still infered that I was not a beliver because I did not share your point of view on Gen 1 and 2.

And I am fully able to admit that I am wrong, now where am I wrong?

Well, did you or did you not state as fact something I did not say? Namely that I quoted the Nicene Creed, which I did not and I even used a disclaimer that I didn't have it memorized. Then I did come back and "quote" it correctly and it still upheld the argument I was making. I was replying to a post from seebs asking for proof from the Nicene Creed. I provided that. Of course, from the way you cut and pasted my posts one could not gather what I was really saying.

You were wrong in your representation (misrepresentation) of what I said.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Misquoted may have been the wrong word, do you prefer…

Misrepresenting? Bearing false witness? Not bothering to look before you spoke?

I am sorry and apologize for using quote in an improper fashion, now what would you prefer me to call it?

Now back to the subject at hand.

I disagreed with LouisBooth’s inference that the early parts of Gen were in Hebrew from the beginning since the Hebrew language is less than 4000 years old and the creation stories in Gen predate that time by at least 2000 years.

You then stated that the common belief that Moses wrote the first five books (I personally think he compiled them from earlier writings and stories and did not invent the religion from scratch) and the fact that he was an Israelite meant he spoke and wrote in Hebrew fluently. (Wow genetic language?)

I pointed out that Moses was not raised by Israelites but Egyptians and that Moses probably didn’t learn Hebrew until his late teens at the earliest, and would not then probably even fully understand the history of the language. And thus even using the Hebrew root words may not prove anything since most likely the Hebrew was itself a translation from an even earlier language. I pointed to the dual creation stories in Geneses
As a hint that it was a compiled book (Gen 1 and 2).

You took this as an attack on the divine inspiration of the Bible (I am a believer too so I also believe that it was inspired.) and the inerrancy of the Bible as a factual document (I do take issue with that belief). That is when you took a quote from me out of context and said I had stated that Moses only would have known a smattering on Hebrew. What I did say is that he probably only knew a smattering of the language and culture before his self exile, that during that exile is where he learned the stories, religion and language of his people. Then he later returned to free them. After taking me out of context you then denied there was even two creation stories.

I then broke down Gen one and two that you ma see that there are two different accounts.

You still deny they are different accounts.

Now if the bible is infallible why are the orders different?

If at least one is an allegory there is no conflict but they cannot both be true.


W L Wildermuth

 

[tericl2]

Lewis W,

My main problem was not the use of the word "quote". It was your very creative use of the cut and paste functions, which you used to give a meaning to my statements that wasn't there.

As far as G1 and G2, I also gave a simple and concise explanation of why they ARE NOT separate accounts. Again, we are back to the fact that you have not disproven my explanation.

I do apologize for misunderstanding your intent on Moses' Hebrew speaking capabilities. The point I would like to make about that is it doesn't matter when he learned Hebrew. He would have known the language quite fluently at the time he wrote the Pentateuch. And since Genesis was written by divine inspiration (which you say you agree with, and would necessarily preclude "borrowing" arguments)it would have been written in the language of God's people and the language that Moses spoke at the time - Hebrew. Whether or not he learned Egyptian first and Hebrew later is just a moot point.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by tericl2

As far as G1 and G2, I also gave a simple and concise explanation of why they ARE NOT separate accounts. Again, we are back to the fact that you have not disproven my explanation.

Well, I don't see the need to "disprove" it, merely to observe that I don't find it convincing. You might see if you can *prove* it, rather than expecting us to accept everything we can't totally rule out.

 

[tericl2]

Originally posted by seebs


Well, I don't see the need to "disprove" it, merely to observe that I don't find it convincing. You might see if you can *prove* it, rather than expecting us to accept everything we can't totally rule out.

If you don't see the need to disprove what I say why should I see the need to disprove what you say? I have given my position and my reasons for holding that position. You can certainly choose to disregard them. I have given what I feel to be a credible refutation to G1 and G2 being mutually exclusive accounts of the creation story. I fear the only "proof" you would accept would be and eye witness account of it. Even then you probably wouldn't believe me, because we have, already, the eye witness account of God. Moses is not the issue here, it is the divine inspiration by God and the fact that he cannot lie.

 

[LouisBooth]

"I disagreed with LouisBooth’s inference that the early parts of Gen were in Hebrew from the beginning since the Hebrew language is less than 4000 years old and the creation stories in Gen predate that time by at least 2000 years. "

Hmm..reference? I was making the point that hebrew is a much more specific language then english. The point you made in no way hinders my replies or posts at all.

 

[Sinai]

As far as we know and believe, Genesis was originally written in Hebrew about 3400-3500 years ago by Moses. Whether Moses was entirely inspired by God as to what to write or whether he was the recipient of information passed down from generation to generation--or a combination of both--is open to speculation.

 

[LouisBooth]

still waiting for that reference Lewis..and thanks for the info Sinai..do you have a reference?

 

[Sinai]

Were you asking me for a reference for what I posted, or were you asking Lewis?

 

[LouisBooth]

both of ya. Just wondering that's all.

 

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by tericl2
Okay my above post was wrong. The Nicene Creed says nothing about the Word being infallible. However, it does say......

We believe in one God ,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen .

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made .

Mmm hmmm, yes, and does it also state HOW God made the universe or what scientifically occured when He "spoke" it into existence?

 

[TheBear]

Have volcanos always occured, or is this something else that happened after Adam & Eve sinned?


John

 

[Sinai]

Originally posted by Sinai:
As far as we know and believe, Genesis was originally written in Hebrew about 3400-3500 years ago by Moses. Whether Moses was entirely inspired by God as to what to write or whether he was the recipient of information passed down from generation to generation--or a combination of both--is open to speculation.

Question posed by LouisBooth:
Sinai..do you have a reference?

What I posted is pretty well general knowledge. Almost any Bible that has footnotes or commentary will list Moses as the author of Genesis, and those that assign dates will tend to place the writing as being about 1400-1500 BCE (or BC), as do Bible commentaries and encyclopedias.

 

[LouisBooth]

okay, I know that...Siani, I agreed with you (I do) but Lewis has yet to show his ref..hmm...

 

[elephanticity]

If Moses wrote (or recorded) the first five books...can someone tell me what book contains the account of his funeral?

 

[Sinai]

Originally posted by elephanticity
If Moses wrote (or recorded) the first five books...can someone tell me what book contains the account of his funeral?

No funeral in the sense that we generally think of funerals (he died on Mount Nebo)—but Moses’ death is recorded in Deuteronomy 34, and is again referred to in Joshua 1. According to Deuteronomy 34:8, the Israelites grieved for Moses for 30 days in the plains of Moab.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by Sinai

No funeral in the sense that we generally think of funerals (he died on Mount Nebo)—but Moses’ death is recorded in Deuteronomy 34, and is again referred to in Joshua 1. According to Deuteronomy 34:8, the Israelites grieved for Moses for 30 days in the plains of Moab.

So... Uhm... Who wrote that part of Deuteronomy?