For the christians who believe in evolution.

[tericl2]

Originally posted by RufusAtticus
Eric,

Do you beleive that an omnipotent god could not have created through evolution?

I believe an omnipotent God COULD have created anything in any way He liked. However, Genesis 1 is pretty clear, in English or Hebrew about HOW he chose to create. "...let there be light, and there was light." Not "light gradually came into existence". The same goes for the rest of His creation.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Originally posted by tericl2



Now Moses was raised by the pharaohs family since shortly after his birth. That would make his first language learned Egyptian, he may have picked up a smattering of Hebrew before his self exile. The major extent of his knowledge of the Hebrew language and religion would have been picked up during that exile and just before he returned to set his people free.
Yes, he is given credit for writing/compiling the first five or so books of the old testament, but the origins of those books would have been the collected oral and written traditions of the Hebrew people. They existed as stories long before Moses was born. That would seem to explain the two creation storied melded together in Gen.

W L Wildermuth

 

[tericl2]

Originally posted by LewisWildermuth

Originally posted by tericl2



Now Moses was raised by the pharaohs family since shortly after his birth. That would make his first language learned Egyptian, he may have picked up a smattering of Hebrew before his self exile. The major extent of his knowledge of the Hebrew language and religion would have been picked up during that exile and just before he returned to set his people free.
Yes, he is given credit for writing/compiling the first five or so books of the old testament, but the origins of those books would have been the collected oral and written traditions of the Hebrew people. They existed as stories long before Moses was born. That would seem to explain the two creation storied melded together in Gen.

W L Wildermuth

First of all, there is only one creation story in Genesis. And the scripture was given by divine inspiration. If you are a Christian and don't believe in divine inspiration you need to do some serious study of the Word.

Second of all, Moses, regardless of the first language he learned was Hebrew and spoke with and led the Israelites. He wrote down the Law for them. I would imagine he spoke more than a "smattering" of the Hebrew language.

 

[chickenman]

well, its debatable whether at least some of genesis doesn't predate Moses, have a look at this http://www-relg-studies.scu.edu/netcours/rs011/restrict/gilflood.htm its from the epic of gilgamesh, I'm fairly sure it predates genesis, and it is very similar

 

[Pastor Eric]

Before I jump into this, I will state for the record that I have not read all the previous post in this thread and that this information may be redundant. If so I am sorry for wasting your time.

The Bible can substanciate evolution. First understand that the Bible is not written in Chronological order.

In Isa 14:12-14, we read the story of the fall of Lucifer after his fall and the taking of 1/3 of the angels with him, he receives a name change to satan and those fallen angels become known as demons. NOTE: anytime there is a permanant change of residency be it physical or spiritual there is a name change to correspond to it.
He is then as stated cut down to the ground or in other words he is cast out of Heaven and sent packing to the earth.

Gen 1:1-2
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

In verse 1 we have the beginning of the earth. At this time GOD created what we call "pre-historic earth". This earth was populated by 2 part beings. They had a body and a soul but they DID NOT have a spirit in them. Thus when in verse 2 it says that the earth was without form and void it is in reference to the lack of order and absence of the SPIRIT of GOD. Then in the next part of the verse it states that "and darkness was upon the face of the deep." If you will look up the Hebrew for darkness you will find it to be the attributes of satan, i.e. death, distruction, darkness, etc...

The next part of the verse shows GOD starting to show satan that he is an inferior being. GOD's SPIRIT starts to move and in verse 3 GOD does HIS thing HE starts to create a new world order. HE starts to create and then HE goes one step beyond anything HE has done before. In Gen 2:7 HE breathes HIS SPIRIT into man. Now there exist a three part creature, something truely made in the image of GOD who is also a three part being (FATHER, SON and HOLY GHOST).

Now right in the midst of what used to be satan's world GOD steps in and changes everything. HE does the same thing in the lives of unbelievers when they come to know HIM.

This intrusion into satan's world also goes to explain the scientific community's obsession with cloning. If they can clone a person they will have created a new 2 part being. If they make enough of them, since they are without the SPIRIT of GOD within them, then satan can rule over them again and he wns, so to speak!

I know this is a short version and will probably cause allot of questions but you must grab onto the difference between a 2 and 3 part being to ever accept this. Thus today the fruitfly is the same as those found incased in Amber from centuries earlier.
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Edited addition:
I guess I should also state that when GOD starts to re-create the earth as seen in the Bible that this is then the beginning of time (History) and that since this is when HE starts to put HIS SPIRIT on the earth and inside of man that this is the only part of history that HE is concerned with. notice that in the future after the Body of CHRIST is reunited and New Jerusalem is formed there is very little mention of life? Time will have stopped and satan will have disposed but the earth will still exist. It is simply not important for GOD to record much about it because of the lack of conflict between GOD and satan as we see in the time before the presence of GOD's SPIRIT on the earth.
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[chickenman]

"This intrusion into satan's world also goes to explain the scientific community's obsession with cloning." - the scientists who are trying to clone human beings are generally shunned and castigated by the scientific community, but there are always crackpots on egotrips who will try to be the first to do something, regardless of the ethical issues

 

[LewisWildermuth]

-=Quoting Tercil2=-
>First of all, there is only one creation story in Genesis. And the scripture was given by >divine inspiration. If you are a Christian and don't believe in divine inspiration you need >to do some serious study of the Word.

Now I am a Christian so I do not debate divine inspiration of the bible but you must have never read Gen 1 and 2 if you thing there is only one version of the creation story there…

Now I won’t directly quote Gen 1 and 2 to save space but you are free to crack open your Bible and follow along.

Gen 1:1-5 (day 1)
God creates Heaven, Earth, light, day and night.

Gen 1:6-8 (day 2)
God creates the sky.

Gen 1:9-13 (day 3)
God creates land, sea and vegetation.

Gen 1:14-19 (day 4)
God creates the sun(one day after plants that need sunlight to live?), moon, day and night(again?).

Gen 1:20-23 (day 5)
God creates sea life and birds.

Gen 1:24-31 (day 6)
God creates land animals and finally mankind(men and women are mentioned) and gives them dominion over the entire earth.

Gen 2:1-3 (day 7)
God rests and declares the day Holy.

Now Gen 2:4-25 is the second telling of the same story in Gen 1 although in a different order or it is a recreation story.

Gen 2:4-6
Earth and heavens created.

Gen 2:7
Man(male only this time) is created.

Gen 8-9
Eden and vegetation created. Also the Tree of Life and the Tree of Good and Evil first mentioned.

Gen 2:10-14
Description of Eden.

Gen 2:15-17
Adam assigned as gardener of Eden and told to stay away from Tree of Good and Evil.


Gen 2:18
God decides Adam needs a helper.

Gen 2:19-20
All animals are created and shown to Adam to name.

Gen 2:21-25
Eve is made and presented to Adam.

Now that is over with we can clearly see two different tellings of the same tale here.
Their order of creation is different and one puts days to when things were done the other seems to happen in one day. Or do you believe that God created the world twice?

W L Wildermuth

 

[elephanticity]

OOOODLEs of biblical scholars have discussed the two genesis stories. The Jehovah tradition and the priestly tradition.

A give away that they are two different stories is that the creations are in differing order.
Another is that in the first creation, God (actually the word for God in the first story was plural, and implied both Genders) creates Man and Woman, both in the image of the Gods.
In the second, God creates Adam, then all the animals for his amusement, then Eve, because even the sheep weren't doing it for him. Really, the more you actually READ the bible, the more you know...

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by elephanticity

In the second, God creates Adam, then all the animals for his amusement, then Eve, because even the sheep weren't doing it for him. Really, the more you actually READ the bible, the more you know...

This doesn't explain why there are Scottish women.

 

[elephanticity]

to keep the vikings from invading...

 

[Pastor Eric]

Lewis,

Personally I think you answered your own question?

"we can clearly see two different tellings of the same tale here."

Have you ever told someone about something? Do you always tell it exactly the same way or do you modify it sometimes to save time? Since GOD had already laid the creation story out in detail in Gen 1-2:3 HE didn't really need to set every detail in order again.

This time there are other salient points to be made. Such things as the fact that HE breathed into their nostrils the breath of life and that this is when man changed from a 2 part being to a 3 part being. Such as the when HE planted a Garden and put man into it even though their was life (so to speak) around it and of course all the other details included.

All too often people try to make the Bible all too literal. The important facts of the Bible are all included in the verse that, "GOD so loved the world, that HE gave HIS only begotten SON, that whosoever believeth in HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life."(John 3:16)

To all that are here today. Have you accepted what HE has done for you? If not you can, just ask HIM to come into your life and forgive you of your past. Ask HIM to come to life within you this day, this hour and HE will!

 

[tericl2]

Lewis W.

Now that is over with we can clearly see two different tellings of the same tale here.
Their order of creation is different and one puts days to when things were done the other seems to happen in one day. Or do you believe that God created the world twice?

Genesis 1
- Day one - heavens and earth are created. "Let there be light." Day and Night.
- Day two - Atmospheric waters separated from earth waters.
- Day three - Land appears separating the seas. Vegetation is made.
- Day four - Sun, moon, stars are made.
- Day five - Sea life and birds are made.
- Day six - Land animals, creeping things, and man (male and female) are made.
Genesis 2
States heaven and earth were created. no plant yet on earth, no rain yet, no man. but, a mist rose watering the surface of the ground. Then the Lord formed man from dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. Then God made Eve.
There is no contradiction between Genesis 1 and 2. Genesis 1 is a detailed explanation of the six days of creation, day by day. Genesis two is a recap and a more detailed explanation of the sixth day , the day that Adam and Eve were made. The recap is stated in Gen. 2:4, "This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven." Then, Moses goes on to detail the creation of Adam and Eve as is seen in verses 7 thru 24 of Gen. 2. Proof that it is not a creative account is found in the fact that animals aren't even mentioned until after the creation of Adam. Why? Probably because their purpose was designated by Adam. They didn't need to be mentioned until after Adam was created.

 

[Sinai]

Although there are a few commentators who think Chapters one and two of Genesis give two separate and contradictory accounts of creation, and there are some (primarily those who hold to the Gap Theory) who claim there are two separate creations of Earth, the majority view is that there is not really a contradiction between the first account (Genesis 1:1-2:3) and the account that begins in Genesis 2:4. Rather, most Bible scholars say that the first is a chronological account of the major events in creation, while the second is a more topical account that focuses on the relationship between God and humanity.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by Sinai
Although there are a few commentators who think Chapters one and two of Genesis give two separate and contradictory accounts of creation, and there are some (primarily those who hold to the Gap Theory) who claim there are two separate creations of Earth, the majority view is that there is not really a contradiction between the first account (Genesis 1:1-2:3) and the account that begins in Genesis 2:4. Rather, most Bible scholars say that the first is a chronological account of the major events in creation, while the second is a more topical account that focuses on the relationship between God and humanity.

No, I just can't buy that. If the first is chronological, than the second is *wrong*, because it explicitly says that Adam meets and names all of the animals *before* Eve is created, as she is created only when Adam is lonely *after* naming the animals.

A majority can believe all sorts of silly things. In this case, I really don't think that reading is consistent. The second telling is unambiguously chronological about the adam/name animals/eve chronology; the first excludes it.

 

[Pastor Eric]

Have you ever heard of the apple snail? It is an asexual creature. That means it is a creature that posesses within it both male and female. In Gen 1 when GOD creates mankind (Adaham) he creates both sexes within one creature "LIKE" the apple snail in its sexual abilities only. Then in Gen 2 HE simple separates the two parts into two humans. This is why in Gen 1 HE is able to tell Adaham to be fruitful and multiply. HE would not have told this to a single sexed being without a mate to reproduce with!
***************

 

[tericl2]

Originally posted by seebs


No, I just can't buy that. If the first is chronological, than the second is *wrong*, because it explicitly says that Adam meets and names all of the animals *before* Eve is created, as she is created only when Adam is lonely *after* naming the animals.

A majority can believe all sorts of silly things. In this case, I really don't think that reading is consistent. The second telling is unambiguously chronological about the adam/name animals/eve chronology; the first excludes it.

HUH???

Adam met and named the animals then God created Eve. How does this not agree with chapter 1? Chapter 1 doesn't even mention naming the animals. See my above post about Chapter 2 covering the specifics of the creation of man. And what SPECIFICALLY happened on at that time.

 

[tericl2]

Originally posted by Pastor Eric
Have you ever heard of the apple snail? It is an asexual creature. That means it is a creature that posesses within it both male and female. In Gen 1 when GOD creates mankind (Adaham) he creates both sexes within one creature "LIKE" the apple snail in its sexual abilities only. Then in Gen 2 HE simple separates the two parts into two humans. This is why in Gen 1 HE is able to tell Adaham to be fruitful and multiply. HE would not have told this to a single sexed being without a mate to reproduce with!
***************

Again, huh???

Genesis 1:27
God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them

Check the Hebrew. There are to different words for male and female.

Female - (transliteration) N@qebah (noun feminine)
Meaning - female
woman, female child
female animal

Male - (transliteration) Zakar
Meaning - male (of humans and animals) adj
male (of humans)

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by tericl2


HUH???

Adam met and named the animals then God created Eve. How does this not agree with chapter 1? Chapter 1 doesn't even mention naming the animals. See my above post about Chapter 2 covering the specifics of the creation of man. And what SPECIFICALLY happened on at that time.

(Oh, hey, Chapter 1 also says the moon itself is a "light".)

Chapter 1: Animals formed before Adam and Eve; Adam and Eve created at the same time.

Chapter 2: Adam created. Animals formed, and named. Eve created.

If you can reconcile these, you have already committed to such a vague interpretation that you might as well admit the whole thing is a myth, not a literal telling of facts.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Argh... Can no one here follow a line of logic or even bother to read the posts that the other posts that the current posts are based on? Do you people only have the memory and attention span of a gold fish?

Olay let's lay this out...

First, I was initially replying to Louis Booth who was claiming that the Hebrew in the early part of Gen is the original and thus infallible language of Gen.

-=Quote LouisBooth=-
>Niether. I showed you how it fits perfectly into no >physical death before the fall. Just look at the text. I >showed you it very clearly. As far as God being a liar, >you need to go back to the hebrew. The serpent's >statments mean to die instantly. He was using a play on >words. An example would be if I told you I ate some pizza >then you when and said Louis ate all of the pizza. I >didn't say that its a small twist on the truth. Please >read the hebrew or find someone that will explain it to >you. The bible wasn't orginally written in English
>

-=Quote LewisWildermuth=-
>The only problem with your argument LouisBooth is that >Genisis was not originaly >In hebrew either, at least the >earlier parts. Even if Earth is only 6000 or so years >old it the early parts of Genisis predate hebrew as a >language by atleast 2000 >years.
>
>W L Wildermuth

Then Tericl2 responded
-=Quote Tericl2=-
>It was originally written in Hebrew. It is commonly >accepted that Moses wrote the Pentateuch (first five >books of the Bible). Moses would have spoken Hebrew since >he was an Israelite. Of course this was by divine >inspiration.

And then he misquoted the Nicene Creed to support his argument…
-=Quote Tericl2=-
>I do not have the Nicene Creed memorized but I am pretty >sure that somwhere in there it will state something >concerning the belief that the Bible is the infallible, >inerrant word of God, given by divine inspiration. If you >believe in evolution then you don't believe that, since >God said he created everything by speaking it into >existence.

I responded…

-=Quote LewisWildermuth=-
>Now Moses was raised by the pharaohs family since shortly >after his birth. That would make his first language >learned Egyptian, he may have picked up a smattering of >Hebrew before his self exile. The major extent of his >knowledge of the Hebrew language and religion would have >been picked up during that exile and just before he >returned to set his people free.
>Yes, he is given credit for writing/compiling the first >five or so books of the old testament, but the origins of >those books would have been the collected oral and >written traditions of the Hebrew people. They existed as >stories long before Moses was born. That would seem to >explain the two creation storied melded together in Gen.

>W L Wildermuth

Tericl2 responded…

-=quote Tericl2=-
>First of all, there is only one creation story in >Genesis. And the scripture was given by divine >inspiration. If you are a Christian and don't believe in >divine inspiration you need to do some serious study of >the Word.

>Second of all, Moses, regardless of the first language he >learned was Hebrew and spoke with and led the Israelites. >He wrote down the Law for them. I would imagine he spoke >more than a "smattering" of the Hebrew language.

Again Tercl2 spoke before bothering to check his facts so I pointed out that yer there are two creation stories and yes they do conflict.

W L Wildermuth

 

[tericl2]

Lewis W,

And then he misquoted the Nicene Creed to support his argument…
-=Quote Tericl2=-
>I do not have the Nicene Creed memorized but I am pretty >sure that somwhere in there it will state something >concerning the belief that the Bible is the infallible, >inerrant word of God, given by divine inspiration. If you >believe in evolution then you don't believe that, since >God said he created everything by speaking it into >existence.

I really hate it when someone deliberately and intentionally misrepresents the facts. It is you my friend that does not check your facts. I corrected myself on the Nicene Creed and even posted it here on this thread. See post #78 for the error and post #79 for my correction.
So, what you posted above and I quoted here was a blatant lie and misrepresentation, spliced together in such a way as to suit your own purposes. If you can argue logically about this subject then please do so. DO NOT twist my words to try to make me out a fool. You'll only make yourself look foolish, because I will call you on it every time!!

By the way, my correction of what I thought the Nicene Creed PROBABLY said in no way changed the point that was being made. feel free to go back and re-read so it will be clear.

Can you follow that clear line of logic?