For the christians who believe in evolution.

[Blackhawk]

"Well, I know exactly what I mean, and I think I know what he means, and if I'm wrong, he will have to be the one to explain exactly what he means."

okay.

"But, you are right about one thing, Blackhawk. There are a lot of teachings with various origins, that have been passed from generation to generation, to the point where they are not even checked against scripture. They are just taken for granted and assumed as being scriptural, without giving it a second thought."

I do not think I have ever said that. But it is true. Especially if we are speaking about greek philosophy.

 

[TheBear]

Okay. Let me just sum things up, and bring us back to point. Somewhere along the line, came the teaching that there was no physical death of any life form, before Adam and Eve sinned, or at least that Adam and Eve were to physically live forever, before they sinned. These teachings are not found anywhere in scripture, and that's why I challenged anyone who disagrees, to show me scripture to the contrary.


Make sense, now?


John

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by TheBear
Okay. Let me just sum things up, and bring us back to point. Somewhere along the line, came the teaching that there was no physical death of any life form, before Adam and Eve sinned, or at least that Adam and Eve were to physically live forever, before they sinned. These teachings are not found anywhere in scripture, and that's why I challenged anyone who disagrees, to show me scripture to the contrary.

Well... I think that would be a plausible way to interpret the warning that, if they eat of the tree, they'll die. However, unless we're assuming that God is often "just funning with us" when He gives us warnings, we have to assume that they *did* die in some way... but given that they had children, we have to assume that it wasn't physical.

Interpretation is a subtle art. I've learned a lot about it, but... it's still tricky.

 

[Blackhawk]

Bear,

"Make sense, now? "

I know what you are trying to say. And I know many things that the early Christians believed. I really do not know where this is coming from. I thought you were going to debate Louis on it. I just tried to give some feedback that Louis has reasons why he believes in what he does and not just because others have said it to him.

Also I know that many historically have believed in no physical death before the fall. it does not make it right but it is something to consider.

I won't post in this thread any longer but I have no idea what is going on here.

BH

 

[LouisBooth]

"Well, did Adam and Eve physically die in the day that they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?
"

You need to check your hebrew on that one. The word the serpent used was more towards instantous death, so he was using a play on words. If only spiritual results happened as a result of sin, they why all the PHYSICAL curses put on man, women, and the serpent in genesis? All for show? No, indeed I think physical death entered it then.

Also in verse 12 the word for death thanatos is the same word used in this verse...

"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. "

Which is 5:10. I think it very much lends itself to physical death being implied and with it spiritual death being a seperation.

And I think the last part of verse 17 is better translated this way..."grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) " In life..not of life. check out the word.. used there..its

1722 en {en}

a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time
or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or
constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between
1519 and 1537); TDNT - 2:537,233; prep

AV - in 1902, by 163, with 140, among 117, at 113, on 62,
through 39, misc 264; 2800

1) in, by, with etc.

 

[TheBear]

Louis, we could go round and round on the root meaning of words and linguistics.

My challenge is, show me some clear-cut, unmistakable scripture, that states that nothing died before Adam and Eve sinned. I really don't want to play word games here. And, I'm sctratcing my head as to how the serpent got into this conversation.

John

 

[LouisBooth]

"Louis, we could go round and round on the root meaning of words and linguistics.
"

I just did you said that doesn't deal with physical death, I showed you it does by eliminating your objection. Are we not looking at the words on the page anymore?

"My challenge is, show me some clear-cut, unmistakable scripture, that states that nothing died before Adam and Eve sinned. "

I think it just says there that death entered in by Adam, telling us it was not present before him.

"I'm sctratcing my head as to how the serpent got into this conversation. "

physical punishment, ie everything that happened was physical in nature (the curses) ie death that happened was also physical

 

[TheBear]

Louis,

God told Adam an Eve, that on the day they ate from the tree of knowledge, they would surely die. Either God is a liar, or the death He was referring to was other than physical. No word games, no spin. Straight forward reasoning and deduction. Combine that with Rom 5 and it all makes perfect sense, that it is a spiritual death He was referring to. Read the entire chapter of Gen 2, and of Rom 5 to get the gist of what is being said.


John

 

[elephanticity]

They are just taken for granted and assumed as being scriptural, without giving it a second thought.

So, am i the only one that's heard Shakespeare quoted, with the words 'And the bible says:'?

There is a lot of argument on atheist boards about how that part of Genesis seems to make God out to be a liar, and the snake the one telling truth in the scene.

God says, 'Eat this and you'll die.'
and the snake says 'No, you won't die. He just doesn't want you getting smart.'

In the event, Adam and Eve DON'T die, and Adam lives 900 years. Most responses we get for this apparent contradiction lean heavily on the idea that A&E were immortal until they ate of the fruit, which then made it possible for them to die, and they started to die 'in the day' that they ate of the fruit.

The snake, who didn't lie, gets punished, and God, who at best omitted facts, is upheld. The animals, herbivores all, get kicked out of paradise as well as the hairless apes.

It seems convoluted and rationalized, to me, but there you go. Also, this doesn't explain the purpose of the tree of immortality in a garden of immortals.

 

[TheBear]

No, God does not say, 'in the day you eat, you will begin the 900 year process of dying.' If your Dr. told you that in 6 months you will die, would you think he meant that you will live another 30 years, and merely start the process of dying in 6 months?

No one is calling God a liar, or the Srepent a truth teller. That is an erroneous analogy. It falsely assumes the death referred to in Gen 2, is a physical death.

John 8:51

"Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."

Uh oh.....It looks like anyone who has physically died has not kept His word.


John

 

[TheBear]

Here are a few more verses that make it clear that there is spiritual death.

Look at each of these verses, and try to assume they are talking about physical death......Do they make any sense that way?



John 5:24

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."


John 11:13

"However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep"


Rom 5:17

"For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)"


John 3:16

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


James 5:20

"let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.


1 John 3:14

"We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death."



John

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by TheBear
Here are a few more verses that make it clear that there is spiritual death.

Look at each of these verses, and try to assume they are talking about physical death......Do they make any sense that way?

John 11:13

"However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep"

This one, I think, does. The others don't.

 

[LouisBooth]

"God told Adam an Eve, that on the day they ate from the tree of knowledge, they would surely die. Either God is a liar, or the death He was referring to was other than physical. "

Okay bear have you looked at the hebrew at all?

In gen 3:3 God used the word
04191 muwth {mooth}

a primitive root; TWOT - 1169; v

AV - die 424, dead 130, slay 100, death 83, surely 50, kill 31,
dead man 3, dead body 2, in no wise 2, misc 10; 835


and in gen 3:4 the word is used twice indicating instant death. Like I said, it was a trick on words.

As for John 8:51 you're not looking at the text. You're reading english not realizing it wasn't written in english..the word thanatos in this context implies spirtual death. Look at the surrounding verses for more hints.

"Either God is a liar, or the death He was referring to was other than physical"

Niether. I showed you how it fits perfectly into no physical death before the fall. Just look at the text. I showed you it very clearly. As far as God being a liar, you need to go back to the hebrew. The serpent's statments mean to die instantly. He was using a play on words. An example would be if I told you I ate some pizza then you when and said Louis ate all of the pizza. I didn't say that its a small twist on the truth. Please read the hebrew or find someone that will explain it to you. The bible wasn't orginally written in english.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

The only problem with your argument LouisBooth is that Genisis was not originaly in hebrew either, at least the earlier parts. Even if Earth is only 6000 or so years old it the early parts of Genisis predate hebrew as a language by atleast 2000 years.

W L Wildermuth

 

[ECAEP STNAW]

I agree with allie!!!!
You aren't a true christian if you believe in evolution!!!

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by ECAEP STNAW
I agree with allie!!!!
You aren't a true christian if you believe in evolution!!!

I'm obviously a bit slow today; could you show me where in the Nicene Creed evolution and creation are discussed in this kind of detail?

 

[tericl2]

Originally posted by LewisWildermuth
The only problem with your argument LouisBooth is that Genisis was not originaly in hebrew either, at least the earlier parts. Even if Earth is only 6000 or so years old it the early parts of Genisis predate hebrew as a language by atleast 2000 years.

W L Wildermuth

It was originally written in Hebrew. It is commonly accepted that Moses wrote the Pentateuch (first five books of the Bible). Moses would have spoken Hebrew since he was an Israelite. Of course this was by divine inspiration.

 

[tericl2]

Originally posted by seebs


I'm obviously a bit slow today; could you show me where in the Nicene Creed evolution and creation are discussed in this kind of detail?

I do not have the Nicene Creed memorized but I am pretty sure that somwhere in there it will state something concerning the belief that the Bible is the infallible, inerrant word of God, given by divine inspiration.

If you believe in evolution then you don't believe that, since God said he created everything by speaking it into existence.

 

[tericl2]

Okay my above post was wrong. The Nicene Creed says nothing about the Word being infallible. However, it does say......

We believe in one God ,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen .

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made .

 

[RufusAtticus]

Eric,

Do you beleive that an omnipotent god could not have created through evolution?