Originally posted by Lanakila
Jerry the first creature on your list is debated still. Here is an article at AIG about it: http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2001/0416news.asp another article on Lucy: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/tj/docs/tj_v15n2_knuckle_walker.asp
Here is an article about Neanderthal man from AIG too: http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/3171.asp
Here is an article by Dr Duane Gish about the supposed Homind trail: http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-171.htm
The websites give a very clear picture of creationist tactics. For instance, the first one is claiming A. afarensis can't be a human ancestor because supposedly Lucy knuckle-walked. From the website "Regardless of the status of Lucys knee joint, new evidence has come forth that Lucy has the morphology of a <B>knuckle-walker</B>,
<A href="]ttp://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/tj/docs/tj_v15n2_knuckle_walker.asp#r4"><SUP>4</SUP> which is a distinctly quadrupedal specialization characteristic of some living apes and is quite different than walking upright."
It has a quote from a
Science article: ""I walked over to the cabinet, pulled out Lucy, and--shazam!--she had the morphology that was classic for knuckle walkers."
But the
very next sentence in the article says "Lucy herself wasn't a knuckle walker, notes Richmond; rather, these wrist traits are a leftover from her knuckle-walking ancestors."
Do you see why we get very frustrated at the violations of the 9th commandment by creationists? What the articles state is that Lucy has traits that you would expect of an evolutionary sequence from a knuckle-walking ape to bipedality. The knee is bipedal, but the wrists retain features left over from the knuckle-walking ancestor.
There is no debate that A. afarensis exists. Nor is there any real debate that A. afarensis is our direct ancestor. OH 13, 14, and 24 are intermediate between A. afarensis and H. habilis.
Now, the other article discusses a new skull that resembles EMR 1470. This skull was placed in a new species -- H. rudolfensis. It was a contemporary of H. habilis, even lived in the same neighborhood, and had a bigger brain than H. habilis. It appears to be an evolutionary offshoot, one of those branches on the bush. I have not seen any fossils connecting H. rudolfensis to H. erectus, like there are fossils connecting H. habilis to H. erectus.
The neandertal site simply focusses on noses. The evidence that says neandertals were a separate species is varied -- lack of intermediate neandertal to sapiens fossils, different mtDNA, the fact that the last neandertal fossils are the "most" neandertal, etc. No anthropologist disputes that neandertals were intelligent, tool users, and even had the beginnings of culture. That would be expected if neandertals and sapiens both have H. erectus as our common ancestor. The differences would be slight. But the DNA evidence shows that there are no DNA sequences in modern humans that are older than 100,000 years. If neandertals had contributed to the sapiens gene pool, then there would be genes 300,000 years old -- when the first neandertal fossils appear.
The Gish article is over 15 years old. New data trumps old ideas. Always.
Gish: "All of the species of <I>Australopithecus</I> and <I>Homo habilis</I> had long curved fingers and long curved toes. Creatures with such anatomical features use them for only one purposeswinging from branch to branch in the trees. So much for the supposed human-like upright locomotion of <I>Homo habilis</I> and <I>Australopithecus</I>, including "Lucy." "
This is just deceptive. Several articles, including Oxnard's that Gish cites, describe the adaptations in the feet of afarensis and habilis that indicate bipedalism. Oxnard's paper, when actually read, leaves no doubt that Lucy walked upright. The gait wasn't quite like modern humans, but then, if we are talking evolution in gradual stages, then it can't be.
Gish does indeed touch on a reality:
"Louis Leakey discovered fossils of creatures in the Olduvai Gorge in Tanzania which he claimed were more "advanced" than the australopithecinessufficiently advanced to place them in the same genus as man. He designated these creatures <I>Homo habilis</I> ("handy man"), believing that they had formed primitive tools.
<SUP>3</SUP> Many paleonanthropologists argue, however, that these creatures were simply variants of the australopithecines. "
What Gish doesn't realize is that this type of argument over nomenclature is
exactly what you expect if evolution is true. Because of the gradual transformations, there are going to be arguments about when exactly the changes are "enough" to warrant placing them in a different taxa -- genus in this case. The typology that Gish advocates, however, would have always distinct taxa since there are no intermediates.
In the case of afarensis and habilis, the argument was reinforced by the intermediate fossils OH 13, 14, and 24. Were they afarensis or habilis? They are so in-between that it is impossible to say. Then there were the transitionals at Olduvai blending H. habilis to H. erectus. The transition was so rapid and continuous from afarensis to erectus that it is very difficult to find a "type" fossil for H. habilis.
I'm glad you guys are trying to bring up data, but you have to look just as critically at creationist sources as the creationists look at evolution. Are Gish's claims valid? Did they quote the articles so that they got the
real intent of the authors, or did they pick quotes that only supported their position?