For political reasons, Texas' state water plan ignores climate change, but the reverse won't be true

rambot

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Back in the days of acid rain and the like, air pollution, contaminated waterways, the cost of alleviating those problems fell on the industry polluters. Many complied, many left for other nations. Then the profiteers got the idea to profit from the very problem they created by starting the environmental movement where the taxpayers would foot the bill instead. It's always about profit.
That's nice but it's all made up.
Do you HONESTLY believe no government money was put into the acid rain program?
Do you REALLY think the environmental movement WANTS government programs?
It only WANTS those programs if the sectors are unwilling to do the work on their own accord and all appearances are that they are unwilling. Perhaps if those industries felt, I don't know, a moral obligation to do so. But they don't.
BUT people ACTUALLY NEED clean drinking water and clean air to breathe. And yet, for some INSANE reason we keep telling businesses to "not worry about it" and then, by default, taxpayers have to pay.

And that's why oil and gas procedures get MULTIPLE BILLIONS in tax breaks.

If you are angry that "taxypayers have to foot hte bill", then be angry at the companies polluting and put pressure on them to solve their own problems.

Here in Alberta, we have a lot of orphan/abandoned wells from our decades of oil exploration. Luckily for all the drillers and exploiters of our resources we have a Conservative government that has NO interest in holding those companies at ALL responsible so guess what? Taxpayers have to pay. O&G saw profits in the TRILLIONS and yet our @#%#@% government doesn't hold them to account to clean up their messes. It's beyond infuriating.

And you get mad that taxpayers foot the bill when, NOT TWO POSTS BEFORE THIS you said "industry and profit first".
pfffft.

Perhaps I'm being unfair though and maybe you could help me understand your position:
Do you think industries should be responsible for the unintended negative consequences of their industry or should it be taxpayers?
Also, do you think, once the link is clear and industries are aware of the negative consequences (intended or not) that the industry should pay or should it be taxpayers? (for the record the industry ABSOLUTELY agrees that AGW is real)


It has been my experience that Conservatives seem to argue:
Tax payers shouldn't have to deal with it
Industry needs to focus on making a profit

But that's not a tenable solution. It's not ethical, moral, or beneficial to society.

As for food production, that industry is now controlled also, most farmers no longer allowed to be independent, and the concept of what passes as being called food completely changed from natural to processed comprised of sugar and starch, always considered the cheapest and least nutritional diet.
I can't be more lost in how that relates to what we were discussing
 
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Tuur

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It's not off the cuff. There's widespread consensus among climate scientists that the temperate zone will shift northward from latitudes of Virginia and Pennsylvania up into the upper Midwest. Parts of the southern US, particularly the southwest, may be so hot nobody will want to live there. Some regions in the southern US will become tropical in terms of the climate, with high heat and humidity throughout more of the year.

Redrawing the Map: How the World’s Climate Zones Are Shifting

New Climate Maps Show a Transformed United States

If the wet-bulb temperature exceeds 95 farenheit, it is not possible for humans to survive for any length of time without air conditioning, as the body loses its ability to cool itself - people in third world living conditions forced to live in intensely hot, humid climates typically live short, miserable lives. Even wet-bulb temperatures over 90 can be highly compromising for physical activity.

Off-the-cuff predictions tend to be made on the fly, sensationalist, and, unfortunately, have a poor track record. I’m amazed that most don’t seem to check projections of something as simple as inundation due to rising sea levels. All we have to do is to take the elevation of a location and divided it by the annual projected rise in sea level.

Let’s make sure we’re on the same page here. This isn’t a debate about global warming, anthropomorphic or otherwise. This is about checking the plausibility of predicted effects. It’s simple to see if projected inundation is within the range of possibility. Can we do the same with livable temperatures? It’s more involved, but I think we can.

First we start with maximum livable temperature. That’s the 95° Fahrenheit / 35° Celsius wet bulb limit you cited. Or you can use a heat index of 140° Fahrenheit / 60° Celsius. That gives our upper limit.

Next we look at the average highest temperature and the record high temperature for a location. Then we look at the average low in the period of the average high and the low the morning of the record high temperature. Example: If the average high typically occurs in July, we look at the average morning low for July.

Now we do the same for relative humidity (RH). Ideally, we’re looking for the RH that coincides with both the average high temperature and the record high temperature. Failing that, we look for the average RH at the time of the morning low in that period, or the date of the record high and estimate the RH at the time of peak temperature. Warm air can contain more water vapor than cooler air. Unless there’s a small shower that increases RH without a significant reduction of temperature, the RH at the point of the daily high in the summer is lower than the humidity at the daily low.

If we have RH data coinciding with the average peak and record peak, we’re good to go. We simply increase the temperature by the expected amount and look up the value based on the RH for that time of day to arrive at the wet bulb temperature or heat index. If it’s below the maximum, things are miserable but livable. We look at both the average and the outlier (the highest recorded temperature) to get a sense of what seasonal and unusual conditions would be like.

If we don’t have RH data coinciding with the high, then we have to estimate the RH at the time of the peak. Here it gets tricky.

RH is the percentage of water vapor pressure / saturation water vapor pressure. Obviously there are equations for this, but it’s been decades since I’ve sat in a chemistry class, so when I did this, I found an online calculator ( Online calculator: Saturation vapor pressure ) and had it calculate the saturation vapor pressure for the temperatures in question. To simplify things, I kept the standard pressure the same. I used the online calculator to get the saturation vapor pressure at the time of the low and the time of the peak. Since I had RH at the time of the low, I multiplied that by the saturation vapor pressure for that temperature to determine the vapor pressure of water. Then I divided that by the saturation vapor pressure at the peak temperature to determine the RH.

You’ll notice the assumption here that RH remains the same despite an increase in global temperatures. That’s because change in RH due to rising global temperatures is an unknown. Keeping it constant assumes that evaporation of water increases with rising temperatures, but since the air can hold more water vapor at higher temperatures, the safest guess for our purposes is that RH will remain the same.

“But you can’t just assume the relative humidity will remain the same,” some might say, and that’s true. Like keeping the barometric pressure the same, this is for simplification. But if RH falls, which would be expected is there’s a decrease in rainfall, that means less relative humidity, and that means a lower wet bulb temperature and heat index.

At least, that’s how I see it.

Now, when I did this, I just wanted to see what the effect would be for the projected rise in temperature for a particular location. But it’s also a way of seeing if projected wet bulb and heat index projections are plausible.
 
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Tuur

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As for food production, that industry is now controlled also, most farmers no longer allowed to be independent, and the concept of what passes as being called food completely changed from natural to processed comprised of sugar and starch, always considered the cheapest and least nutritional diet.

Ah...locally I can't think of any agroconglomerate involved in farming. All are independent farmers. They're all large farmers compared to when I was growing up, but still, they're independent.

We did have an agroconglomerate come in once, but for whatever reason, they didn't do well, and ended up leaving.
 
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timothyu

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Ah...locally I can't think of any agroconglomerate involved in farming. All are independent farmers. They're all large farmers compared to when I was growing up, but still, they're independent.
So none are under contractual obligation to Bayer and the like?
 
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Tuur

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So none are under contractual obligation to Bayer and the like?

The only such contracts that I'm aware of locally is cotton.

Hmm...the more I think about it, the more it's likely that locally, cotton contracts may be the only ones. I overhear too much talk of taking crops to market, like in the days when my family farmed.
 
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wing2000

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“Dams don’t make water,” said Samuel Sandoval Solís, a professor in water resources at the University of California Davis who has studied the Rio Grande Basin. “If it doesn’t rain, as suspected [with climate change], we are going to have monuments to stupidity built with taxpayer dollars.”

The Texas water plan is a 50 year plan. It appears it will be at least 2050 before the first dams are completed -- assuming they can get the funding needed in time to build them on schedule.

...they better have a long pipe to the Mississippi River.
 
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timothyu

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Hmm...the more I think about it, the more it's likely that locally, cotton contracts may be the only ones. I overhear too much talk of taking crops to market, like in the days when my family farmed.
Ok, because what I am seeing here is indebtedness to fertilizer and pesticide companies where they must be paid due to long term contracts regardless of crop outcome or even if it doesn't get planted. And of course the good ol' supply chain thing is being used especially on the smaller farmers to force them out. Corporatism at work.
 
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Tuur

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Ok, because what I am seeing here is indebtedness to fertilizer and pesticide companies where they must be paid due to long term contracts regardless of crop outcome or even if it doesn't get planted. And of course the good ol' supply chain thing is being used especially on the smaller farmers to force them out. Corporatism at work.

The closest to that locally is someone who cleared the timber off land, installed irrigation, all to rent it out. The catch was that the renter must buy fertilizer, seed, and agrochemicals from him. Generally thought of locally as a dirty trick. I'm trying to remember if the field lay fallow for a while, and if anything was on it this year. It may have been they had to change policies due to lack of renter. Or not.
 
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juvenissun

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Texas’ plan to provide water for a growing population virtually ignores climate change
Texas’ biggest single solution to providing enough water for its soaring population in the coming decades is using more surface water, including about two dozen new large reservoirs. But climate change has made damming rivers a riskier bet.

Climate change has brought higher temperatures that dry soil more quickly, enhancing the effects of drought and causing less rain to flow into Texas’ rivers and streams. At the same time, longer-lasting and more intense heat brought by climate change accelerates water evaporation from Texas’ reservoirs.

“It’s not going to go away,” Rathmell said. “Over the years, our area does seem to be getting drier. It seems like it rains less year after year.”

“And of course,” he added, “the demand for water just keeps increasing.”

“Surface water is one of, if not the most, susceptible [water] supplies to climate change,” said Robert Mace, the executive director and chief water policy officer for the Meadows Center for Water and the Environment at Texas State University.

But adding surface water is the centerpiece of Texas’ long-term water plan.

“Dams don’t make water,” said Samuel Sandoval Solís, a professor in water resources at the University of California Davis who has studied the Rio Grande Basin. “If it doesn’t rain, as suspected [with climate change], we are going to have monuments to stupidity built with taxpayer dollars.”
We can NOT make change to stop Texas become drier. So what is the point of your complaint?
Build more reservoirs for now and "wait" for the climate to change "back" !!! Everything goes in cycle, was it not?
 
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Pommer

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We can NOT make change to stop Texas become drier. So what is the point of your complaint?
Build more reservoirs for now and "wait" for the climate to change "back" !!! Everything goes in cycle, was it not?
Spend billions on reservoirs that will not hold water for years?
Yeah, let’s try that!
 
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timothyu

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Spend billions on reservoirs that will not hold water for years?
Yeah, let’s try that!
Is the idea to reserve water or create financial opportunity? Is not the latter always the priority. Wolves in sheeps clothing.
 
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juvenissun

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Spend billions on reservoirs that will not hold water for years?
Yeah, let’s try that!
Think: If a reservoir dried up, the river must have dried up for months or years. If a river just dried up, the reservoir would still have water for at least an year.
Would you like to have a reservoir at your backyard to fight the climate change?
 
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