For most of us, faith is sufficient but not necessary, to the one that endures - true?

[Gottservant]

Hi there,

[scripture]
As Jesus said "He that endures to the end, shall be saved" (from memory).

[faith]
I think that learning from this, we may conclude that faith is sufficient for us, but not necessary - to the one that endures.

[history]
I have struggled for a long time, with what constitutes faith, why we wrestle with it, where we are coming from when we are speaking to each other and so on and so forth. The conclusion being "yes, we must strive to endure" and "yes, one may endure in things of the faith (baptism, communion, prayer and good works, etc.)" but there is no one tradition, nor something different for the one in the company of the one enduring (than the one enduring).

[interlude]
Even then, there are some that would rather endure in different ways - again something sufficient but not necessary.

[necessary]
What I think this means for me, is that there is no way for me to convince you I have endured sufficiently for both of us - I can merely give you a little of my faith, and hope you see the point in enduring some of it. That leaves way more room for the Holy Spirit to win you over, to the cross that the Lord has endured in (if indeed He is willing to endure more for you, in principle). I don't think it is enough to say "God is always willing", as He said "I shall not always strive with Man" (from memory).

[sufficient]
Knowing that we may come back adds another level of mystery to this, we indeed may desire to endure differently even in the next life - there is no way to guarantee we will agree on the state of faith we share: I may be convicted of sin, you may convicted of a work that will help you revive the spirit despite sin; I may be convicted on righteousness, while you may want to vary your righteousness, and so on and so forth. This should not be disappointing (I am newly realising that this is important), it just means that we should put less stock in our coming to union, than the union itself (and its meaning).

[difference]
What we have to weigh, is enduring for the sake of the Gospel and there is much less that I know to say, about that. I think what I am saying or should be prepared to say, is that it is safe to assume, that everyone but the Devil wants to share the Gospel - we should be at peace about the idea that our brothers want to share something. Again this is sufficient, but better than not necessary, it is trustworthy. It is hard to endure a brother's doctrine, when he is not schooled, but trusting that he desires to share the Gospel, is both good and meaningful and a difference between us and the Devil, which will ultimately save - both now and to the end, as we endure in it.

[close]
When we get to the end, then, it is not Heaven we will most enjoy, but the Gospel.

This is the root.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Hi there,

As Jesus said "He that endures to the end, shall be saved" (from memory).

I think that learning from this, we may conclude that faith is sufficient for us, but not necessary - to the one that endures.

I have struggled for a long time, with what constitutes faith, why we wrestle with it, where we are coming from when we are speaking to each other and so on and so forth. The conclusion being "yes, we must strive to endure" and "yes, one may endure in things of the faith (baptism, communion, prayer and good works, etc.)" but there is no one tradition, nor something different for the one in the company of the one enduring (than the one enduring).

Even then, there are some that would rather endure in different ways - again something sufficient but not necessary.

What I think this means for me, is that there is no way for me to convince you I have endured sufficiently for both of us - I can merely give you a little of my faith, and hope you see the point in enduring some of it. That leaves way more room for the Holy Spirit to win you over, to the cross that the Lord has endured in (if indeed He is willing to endure more for you, in principle). I don't think it is enough to say "God is always willing", as He said "I shall not always strive with Man" (from memory).

Knowing that we may come back adds another level of mystery to this, we indeed may desire to endure differently even in the next life - there is no way to guarantee we will agree on the state of faith we share: I may be convicted of sin, you may convicted of a work that will help you revive the spirit despite sin; I may be convicted on righteousness, while you may want to vary your righteousness, and so on and so forth. This should not be disappointing (I am newly realising that this is important), it just means that we should put less stock in our coming to union, than the union itself (and its meaning).

What we have to weigh, is enduring for the sake of the Gospel and there is much less that I know to say, about that. I think what I am saying or should be prepared to say, is that it is safe to assume, that everyone but the Devil wants to share the Gospel - we should be at peace about the idea that our brothers want to share something. Again this is sufficient, but better than not necessary, it is trustworthy. It is hard to endure a brother's doctrine, when he is not schooled, but trusting that he desires to share the Gospel, is both good and meaningful and a difference between us and the Devil, which will ultimately save - both now and to the end, as we endure in it.

When we get to the end, then, it is not Heaven we will most enjoy, but the Gospel.

This is the root.

I'm having a hard time following what you're trying to say. For just one example of many:

What I think this means for me, is that there is no way for me to convince you I have endured sufficiently for both of us - I can merely give you a little of my faith, and hope you see the point in enduring some of it.

Prior to this you hadn't mentioned any need for one person to endure for two, so I'm left to guess you mean some kind of tautology: "I can't convince you well enough for you to agree." But then I'm immediately left to wonder, what is the "it" at the end, referring to? That you hope the reader sees the point in enduring your faith? ...in enduring your attempt at convincing? —even less likely. Do you mean less than what you wrote, as in, you hope the reader sees the point in enduring, period?

Another example: Your use of the term, "persevere", and its relatives, sounds almost like the strange thing thing that I still can't understand what it means: "Lifetime Warranty" —what does that mean, anyway? We will persevere until we don't, because we die? Persevere in doing what? Exactly what are you talking about?

I'm a little afraid your response will be just as confusing and I will have to drop it. But, I mean you no disrespect by my response; I, too, am plagued with the ability to write what seems perfectly clear to me, but only to me, and even on occasion the next day if I read what I had written, even *I* don't understand it.

But so far, I see a good bit of self-reflection, human reasoning and assumptions, and little Scriptural support. It sounds like you have the habit of taking one verse or passage and making it fit to your mind. I don't doubt your sincerity any more than I doubt mine, but if I understand anything you are concluding here, it isn't making sense to me; apparently you never see your faith as any different from that of even anyone belonging to other false religions: You say, "but there is no one tradition, nor something different for the one in the company of the one enduring (than the one enduring)." (Leaving alone the confusion of bringing another person into the mix here,) you seem to think salvific faith is only a person's usual faith, when applied in strong or sincere measure to the Gospel. This is false. Traditionally, Protestant Christianity has maintained that Salvation is by Grace, and that salvific faith is a gift, not of any human effort, just as Scripture teaches us.

Your faith, that is, if it is saving faith, in a sense is not even yours, as it is generated by, and sustained by, the Spirit of God, and not by you. It is not only immeasureably superior thank, but it is a different kind of thing from, anyone's "usual" faith.

Like that faith, and because of it, although we may exhaust ourselves unto death with the effort of persevering, it is God who keeps us, and not we ourselves. If we belong to Christ, we WILL persevere, and so, we must.

 

[Mark Quayle]

For most of us, faith is sufficient but not necessary, to the one that endures - true?

False. It is necessary, or one will not endure to the end.

 

[fhansen]

Hi there,

As Jesus said "He that endures to the end, shall be saved" (from memory).

I think that learning from this, we may conclude that faith is sufficient for us, but not necessary - to the one that endures.

I have struggled for a long time, with what constitutes faith, why we wrestle with it, where we are coming from when we are speaking to each other and so on and so forth. The conclusion being "yes, we must strive to endure" and "yes, one may endure in things of the faith (baptism, communion, prayer and good works, etc.)" but there is no one tradition, nor something different for the one in the company of the one enduring (than the one enduring).

Even then, there are some that would rather endure in different ways - again something sufficient but not necessary.

What I think this means for me, is that there is no way for me to convince you I have endured sufficiently for both of us - I can merely give you a little of my faith, and hope you see the point in enduring some of it. That leaves way more room for the Holy Spirit to win you over, to the cross that the Lord has endured in (if indeed He is willing to endure more for you, in principle). I don't think it is enough to say "God is always willing", as He said "I shall not always strive with Man" (from memory).

Knowing that we may come back adds another level of mystery to this, we indeed may desire to endure differently even in the next life - there is no way to guarantee we will agree on the state of faith we share: I may be convicted of sin, you may convicted of a work that will help you revive the spirit despite sin; I may be convicted on righteousness, while you may want to vary your righteousness, and so on and so forth. This should not be disappointing (I am newly realising that this is important), it just means that we should put less stock in our coming to union, than the union itself (and its meaning).

What we have to weigh, is enduring for the sake of the Gospel and there is much less that I know to say, about that. I think what I am saying or should be prepared to say, is that it is safe to assume, that everyone but the Devil wants to share the Gospel - we should be at peace about the idea that our brothers want to share something. Again this is sufficient, but better than not necessary, it is trustworthy. It is hard to endure a brother's doctrine, when he is not schooled, but trusting that he desires to share the Gospel, is both good and meaningful and a difference between us and the Devil, which will ultimately save - both now and to the end, as we endure in it.

When we get to the end, then, it is not Heaven we will most enjoy, but the Gospel.

This is the root.

No, faith is the means to endurance, because faith is the means to God who gives us all good things including the endurance to do whatever He wants in order for us to gain eternal life. Faith is all about union with God-and we must remain in Him.

 

[Gottservant]

I guess the point I am making, is that if we truly have faith, it is God who has faith in us (and He is the One who endures).

That is faith, grace and spirit all mixed up in One.

 

[Gottservant]

False. It is necessary, or one will not endure to the end.

I don't believe you know this?

 

[Gottservant]

No, faith is the means to endurance,[...]

Some faith, is - that's the whole point: there's no need to be zealot (just commune with God).

 

[Gottservant]

I'm having a hard time following what you're trying to say. For just one example of many:

I have given subject headers for your understanding.

Prior to this you hadn't mentioned any need for one person to endure for two, so I'm left to guess you mean some kind of tautology: "I can't convince you well enough for you to agree."

It's hard to grasp but yes, I mean what you're saying, but in the sense of "having enough conviction for you to agree".

But then I'm immediately left to wonder, what is the "it" at the end, referring to? That you hope the reader sees the point in enduring your faith? ...in enduring your attempt at convincing? —even less likely. Do you mean less than what you wrote, as in, you hope the reader sees the point in enduring, period?

I just mean enduring in things both sufficient and necessary - as would typically be called "religion".

[...] you seem to think salvific faith is only a person's usual faith, when applied in strong or sincere measure to the Gospel. This is false. Traditionally, Protestant Christianity has maintained that Salvation is by Grace, and that salvific faith is a gift, not of any human effort, just as Scripture teaches us.

I didn't say it wasn't grace, you have just jumped to that conclusion (I can see why, don't fear). But you are right, for me there is still a question of when we have received the gift. Your interpretation seems to be that we receive the gift immediately, upon believing - that's not true for everyone (hence my quandary, in part).

Your faith, that is, if it is saving faith, in a sense is not even yours, as it is generated by, and sustained by, the Spirit of God, and not by you. It is not only immeasureably superior thank, but it is a different kind of thing from, anyone's "usual" faith.

Like that faith, and because of it, although we may exhaust ourselves unto death with the effort of persevering, it is God who keeps us, and not we ourselves. If we belong to Christ, we WILL persevere, and so, we must.

Ok. But acknowledge that it is the Devil that is against our persevering, not wayward believers who interpret scripture differently to us. It is holding out for sufficient faith that divides necessary faith, the most: really I should be repenting now [forgive me, Lord], that I have not confused my willingness to have God's faith, with your continued faith in what you believe is sufficient or necessary. Really you should believe what you do more, now, than before I suggested that not everyone will.

 

[Gottservant]

Remember what Paul said "But when this perishable nature has put on what is imperishable, and this mortality has put on immortality, then will the words of Scripture be fulfilled, "Death has been swallowed up in victory." 1 Cor 15:54

That's what I am saying, the one having had faith, no longer keeps that alone, but is glorified in God in a way that what was coming, now follows.

There is nothing that follows the Devil, once he is defeated, he is no more seen in the New Heaven or the New Earth - the race to have faith, is no longer pressured (by the pursuit of the Devil).

We must commend each other, for the faith that is coming in us - while there is still time for Heaven to rejoice over sinners (for what will come).

 

[disciple Clint]

Hi there,

[scripture]
As Jesus said "He that endures to the end, shall be saved" (from memory).

[faith]
I think that learning from this, we may conclude that faith is sufficient for us, but not necessary - to the one that endures.

[history]
I have struggled for a long time, with what constitutes faith, why we wrestle with it, where we are coming from when we are speaking to each other and so on and so forth. The conclusion being "yes, we must strive to endure" and "yes, one may endure in things of the faith (baptism, communion, prayer and good works, etc.)" but there is no one tradition, nor something different for the one in the company of the one enduring (than the one enduring).

[interlude]
Even then, there are some that would rather endure in different ways - again something sufficient but not necessary.

[necessary]
What I think this means for me, is that there is no way for me to convince you I have endured sufficiently for both of us - I can merely give you a little of my faith, and hope you see the point in enduring some of it. That leaves way more room for the Holy Spirit to win you over, to the cross that the Lord has endured in (if indeed He is willing to endure more for you, in principle). I don't think it is enough to say "God is always willing", as He said "I shall not always strive with Man" (from memory).

[sufficient]
Knowing that we may come back adds another level of mystery to this, we indeed may desire to endure differently even in the next life - there is no way to guarantee we will agree on the state of faith we share: I may be convicted of sin, you may convicted of a work that will help you revive the spirit despite sin; I may be convicted on righteousness, while you may want to vary your righteousness, and so on and so forth. This should not be disappointing (I am newly realising that this is important), it just means that we should put less stock in our coming to union, than the union itself (and its meaning).

[difference]
What we have to weigh, is enduring for the sake of the Gospel and there is much less that I know to say, about that. I think what I am saying or should be prepared to say, is that it is safe to assume, that everyone but the Devil wants to share the Gospel - we should be at peace about the idea that our brothers want to share something. Again this is sufficient, but better than not necessary, it is trustworthy. It is hard to endure a brother's doctrine, when he is not schooled, but trusting that he desires to share the Gospel, is both good and meaningful and a difference between us and the Devil, which will ultimately save - both now and to the end, as we endure in it.

[close]
When we get to the end, then, it is not Heaven we will most enjoy, but the Gospel.

This is the root.

frankly you are making things far too complicated. Read the Gospel, accept the Gospel, be saved by Jesus.

 

[fhansen]

I guess the point I am making, is that if we truly have faith, it is God who has faith in us (and He is the One who endures).

That is faith, grace and spirit all mixed up in One.

Its our faith in Him, that’s still a gift from Him, that allows us to endure. It’s both/and: He living in us and we cooperating with Him and that life.

 

[fhansen]

Some faith, is - that's the whole point: there's no need to be zealot (just commune with God).

Hmm, wouldn’t know about zeal here. Fellowship with God is the basis of the New Covenant. “Apart from Me you can do nothing.” John 15:5

Man is lost apart from God. Jesus came to find us.

 

[Gottservant]

Its our faith in Him, that’s still a gift from Him, that allows us to endure. It’s both/and: He living in us and we cooperating with Him and that life.

Yes, but when is He doing this?

 

[Gottservant]

Hmm, wouldn’t know about zeal here. Fellowship with God is the basis of the New Covenant. “Apart from Me you can do nothing.” John 15:5

Man is lost apart from God. Jesus came to find us.

Again, don't just tell me "He does something", tell me when?

 

[fhansen]

Yes, but when is He doing this?

It begins as we turn to Him in humble faith. That makes us children of His. To the extent that we remain in that relationship, taking it seriously, seeking to do His will with the help of His grace, that faith, along with hope and love, grow, and prove themselves, and Him, all the more.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don't believe you know this?

That's a strangely constructed question.

Not that there aren't other ways to know that faith is necessary to persevere, but, a little simple logic:
(1) "Without faith, it is impossible to please God."
(2) Perseverance pleases God. Enduring pleases God.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I guess the point I am making, is that if we truly have faith, it is God who has faith in us (and He is the One who endures).

That is faith, grace and spirit all mixed up in One.

You are putting the cart before the horse. God is the initiator —not we.

 

[Mark Quayle]

But you are right, for me there is still a question of when we have received the gift. Your interpretation seems to be that we receive the gift immediately, upon believing - that's not true for everyone (hence my quandary, in part).

But how would you know whether it is true for everyone? How would THEY even know when what happened? Must this radical change be a conscious thing, to be real?

And have you never experienced the uncanny phenomenon of choosing something, only then to realize that it had been chosen before your conscious act affirmed it, like stepping into an already moving trolley?

Actually, I believe that the gift of faith IS the believing, and we choose-to-believe subsequently, having had our hearts 'born again' by the Spirit of God. Nor need we even be conscious, aware, of the fact our hearts have been changed, for it to nevertheless be true*. We have the bad habit of thinking in human terms; for example, taking the word, "subsequent" as I wrote above, to mean one thing occurring in time after another, but there I am referring to mere causation: God produces the faith through the regeneration by the Spirit of God he 'installs' in us. The timeline sequence is irrelevant —as my old dad (a New Testament Greek master of some note) used to say, "We say that a person is born again as a result of accepting the Lord, but some people just come-to-know the Lord".

*(The faith that is the gift of God is not of human origin; being the work of the Spirit of God, it is altogether real, valid and capable of accomplishing what he meant to do by giving it, regardless of to what measure one has it. It is not the amount of faith that makes it strong, but the nature of that faith.)

Ok. But acknowledge that it is the Devil that is against our persevering, not wayward believers who interpret scripture differently to us. It is holding out for sufficient faith that divides necessary faith, the most: really I should be repenting now [forgive me, Lord], that I have not confused my willingness to have God's faith, with your continued faith in what you believe is sufficient or necessary. Really you should believe what you do more, now, than before I suggested that not everyone will.

Here, perhaps, I can begin to understand where you were going, or what you meant, by your OP. (But for the grace of God, I identify myself with what I am going to say, and by my own standard I will be measured: The "wayward believers" you reference, are in danger of being after all, not believers at all, but in their own mind. If they persist in sin, they identify with their sin. "He who sins (continuous action) is a slave to sin.") —Yes, it is the Devil against whom we struggle, but who knows the depth of union of the Devil with what you here call "wayward believers"? They perhaps did not mean us harm, in positing their interpretation, but the Devil did.

You are right, as 1 Peter 3 says, "15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect..." We should regard those with whom we debate, not generally as tools of the Devil, but as brothers, if possible assuming they too are of those whom God has chosen for his own. Concerning this I am often guilty, answering with scorn or deprecation. It is a cheap way to win the day, and doesn't often win the person.

But after 1 Peter's gentleness, do not ignore 2 Peter. Peter has some of the strongest language in Scripture, concerning those who may be described as "wayward believers who have a different interpretation".

 

[Gottservant]

But how would you know whether it is true for everyone? How would THEY even know when what happened? Must this radical change be a conscious thing, to be real?

[...]

They perhaps did not mean us harm, in positing their interpretation, but the Devil did.

Yes, it is the Devil that is against us, for the most part as though no faith is sufficient.

The problem is, we are in danger of losing faith to the Devil, when we present faith to the brethren as though it is necessary.

What we need to do is endure, until we are saved - then no amount of complaining that more of the faith is necessary, will reach us (in Heaven).

 

[disciple Clint]

Yes, it is the Devil that is against us, for the most part as though no faith is sufficient.

The problem is, we are in danger of losing faith to the Devil, when we present faith to the brethren as though it is necessary.

What we need to do is endure, until we are saved - then no amount of complaining that more of the faith is necessary, will reach us (in Heaven).

until we are saved

Seems to me that there is not real agreement on when exactly we are saved, I think it is when we accept Jesus, your post seems to indicate that it is when we pass on. Others may have other thoughts.