For liberal Christians only

[FireDragon76]

A few months ago I stopped identifying as Christian and stopped going to church. I belong to an ELCA church. But I felt conflicted about identifying as Christian when I had so many problems with Christianity.

I find myself missing the people there and the social contact. But I'm not sure how I can identify as a Christian in good conscience.

I accept the conclusions of the Jesus Seminar, and on the issue of God's existence, I am not a realist, though I think the idea of God can be useful for some people, I think it doesn't make any sense to me except perhaps as a metaphor. Though I am not a philosophical naturalist and I do believe in some kind of existence after death. I do believe in prayer and sometimes I do pray, but I do not pray to God as most Christians would understand it. It's just a time for me to focus on having positive intentions for myself and other people.

I don't agree with the Bible for the most part, don't consider it to be a magical book, and don't believe alot on the creed. In fact I find forcing people to say a creed to be a terrible idea. I don't consider myself a bad person and I don't want a blood sacrifice so that "God" can forgive me. I don't operate by guilt in my life anymore. I am not a sinner.

But I do find myself missing church this time of year, and I guess I continue to respect Jesus' teachings about compassion and justice. So it's not easy.

My partner continues to go to church most Sundays. But I don't go.

I think I'm very angry about all the injustice Christians have done throughout the years, and esp. the attitudes Christians have had about LGBT people . My church's stance on the issue is simply too ambiguous, and I don't see how I can consider it anything but a moral failing to have anything against gay or trans people. And in my own life, I do not have friendship with those who think otherwise, it's a deal-breaker for me. I have thought about visiting a moral liberal church, like the UCC which is more explicitly pro-LGBT, but I am so burned out I just can't work up the motivation.

I suppose I need to meditate more. I used to do this every day for twenty minutes twice a day, but in the past month I've been lazy and it's hard to reinstitute the habit. I'm just not sure what direction I go in my life, whether I should give the church another shot, or I should formally become Buddhist.

 

[brinny]

Are you seeking advice, or prayer? What do you mean by "liberal christians"?

 

[TzephanYahu]

Shalom @FireDragon76

I understand your frustrations.

Whilst I don't identify with any denomination and have problems with mainstream Christianity today, I do utterly believe the Bible, cover to cover, following the teachings therein. But I don't attend a church and only call myself a Christian for the benefit of others to understand my faith.

You should be careful not to get hung up by groups, churches, traditions, traditional answers and "religion", and instead seek to make contact with Yahweh, the God of the Bible, directly - through His son Yahushua (Jesus Christ). In these days, many churches are in error, as prophecised.

Now, the Bible is divinely inspired and demonstrates it in several supernatural qualities (see here) which raises it above any other text. Also, it remains the most influential book in the world (see here) which also highlights its timeless, intelligently designed qualities.

This Bible ascertains that we are all both in sin and do sin, despite what we might think. Now, clearly you are smart person, so what is the real conflict you have against this matter? Is it that you think it is wrong because of a path of logic? Or and example? Or the Bible’s rationale? The LGBT thing?

I think that this is the most important thing to address. Because this going to church thing, feeling warm and welcome and listening to wise teachings on sunday - that's not what this is all about, you know.

What I'm saying is don't attend any church for a connection with God or a safe route for salvation. Prophecy suggests that many churches and Christians will be very surprised about their judgement to come. So don't follow crowds or groups for the sake of it - or you may be led deeper in the dark. Instead, follow truth with humility.

We should adjust ourselves according to the Word, not the Word according to ourselves. The moment we seek to only accept part of it is the same moment we have missed the point. But again, I understand your frustration. I just think it atems from misunderstanding and poor teaching rather than anything untoward.

I hope something in that rambling makes sense!

Love & Shalom

 

[FireDragon76]

Please, I only want advice or dialogue with liberal/mainline Christians only. I am well aware of fundamentalist or evangelical Christian beliefs.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Please, I only want advice or dialogue with liberal/mainline Christians only. I am well aware of fundamentalist or evangelical Christian beliefs.

Did it ever occur to you that may be the problem? Liberal/mainline Christians are focusing more and more on man, social justice, accepting behavior condemned by God, etc. Maybe finding a church that preaches the Word of God instead of the word of man could be of great benefit.....otherwise you could be just attending another social organization....IMHO of course.

 

[Basil the Great]

I recommend that you strive every day to live by Jesus' two commandments - love God and love your fellow men and women. I agree with some of what you say, but it is important not to throw the baby out with the bath water, as the saying goes. I am firmly convinced that it is very important for all of us to do what we can to alleviate the suffering of those in need. Jesus emphasized this in the Book of Matthew in a major way. Since you posted this in the "Struggles by Non-Christians" section, I would point out that pretty much every religion on Earth emphasizes the importance of showing mercy to those in need.

God bless you.

 

[FireDragon76]

Did it ever occur to you that may be the problem? Liberal/mainline Christians are focusing more and more on man, social justice, accepting behavior condemned by God, etc. Maybe finding a church that preaches the Word of God instead of the word of man could be of great benefit.....otherwise you could be just attending another social organization....IMHO of course.

Do you have a problem with reading comprehension? I'm not interested in arguing with you. I simply don't find your religious claims persuasive, and I'm not interested in your opinion of mainline Protestant churches.

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

I'm just not sure what direction I go in my life, whether I should give the church another shot, or I should formally become Buddhist.

If I may share a line about Buddhism?

"Zen ain't easy. It takes a lot of effort to achieve nothingness. And then what have you got? Bupkis!"

Also I noticed this in the "Struggles by Non-Christians" guidelines:

"Only non-Christians may start threads here, and only orthodox Christians may reply to your thread."

I take this to mean those who hold to the faith as classically defined in the Creeds (are orthodox in their beliefs). I do not believe you have any basis for excluding "non-liberal" Christians from this thread/forum section.

 

[FireDragon76]

If I may share a line about Buddhism?

"Zen ain't easy. It takes a lot of effort to achieve nothingness. And then what have you got? Bupkis!"

Also I noticed this in the "Struggles by Non-Christians" guidelines:

"Only non-Christians may start threads here, and only orthodox Christians may reply to your thread."

I take this to mean those who hold to the faith as classically defined in the Creeds (are orthodox in their beliefs). I do not believe you have any basis for excluding "non-liberal" Christians from this thread/forum section.

Fine. I am interested in dialogue, not proselytism. I don't find the apologetics forum congenial to my concerns, it's too argumentative.

 

[FireDragon76]

I recommend that you strive every day to live by Jesus' two commandments - love God and love your fellow men and women. I agree with some of what you say, but it is important not to throw the baby out with the bath water, as the saying goes. I am firmly convinced that it is very important for all of us to do what we can to alleviate the suffering of those in need. Jesus emphasized this in the Book of Matthew in a major way. Since you posted this in the "Struggles by Non-Christians" section, I would point out that pretty much every religion on Earth emphasizes the importance of showing mercy to those in need.

God bless you.

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

I am a non-theist, in the sense that I do not believe in a male, anthropomorphic personal being as the Creator of the universe. I guess I am closest to John Shelby Spong's religious views, as far as Christians go. I'm not sure how I could participate in my church in good conscience anymore. But I do believe in the basic decency embodied in the mainline Protestant tradition. I just am not sure how to reconcile that with the tepid stance on gay rights. I am not a social justice warrior, but it's an issue that effects me personally.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I attend what most would consider a liberal, mainline denomination. Within my congregation, you will find people of all different stripes with variance among beliefs. There is no litmus test for right belief to attend services. We are bound together more by common worship than dogma. You would be welcome in our midst and it would not surprise me if you could find one or more other persons like yourself.

We recite the creed as part of our liturgy, but no one if "forced" to do so. If you don't believe in it, don't say it. Pretty simple, actually. I know of one chap very close to my heart that leaves out a particular phrase of the Creed and no one has ever asked why he grows silent at the same place every Sunday.

I think Church serves different functions for different people. For some, it is a place for believers to come together to worship God. But it is also outreach to the world. It is also a place for the curious or those looking for something. Or those drawn to some aspect of Christiainity practice...living like Jesus, dedicating one hour of their week to being in a quiet safe space for contemplation and centering for the week ahead, organ music, doughnuts and coffee in fellowship hour, etc. People come for different reasons.

So come or not. If you come, you'd be welcome. But be forewarned. If you come you might just change your mind.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Do you have a problem with reading comprehension? I'm not interested in arguing with you. I simply don't find your religious claims persuasive, and I'm not interested in your opinion of mainline Protestant churches.

Not trying to argue but FYI this forum is open to ALL Christians to respond to questions as per the statement of purpose. That being said as we are directed in Matthew 10:14 I will kick the dust off my sandals and remove myself.

 

[FireDragon76]

I attend what most would consider a liberal, mainline denomination. Within my congregation, you will find people of all different stripes with variance among beliefs. There is no litmus test for right belief to attend services. We are bound together more by common worship than dogma. You would be welcome in our midst and it would not surprise me if you could find one or more other persons like yourself.

We recite the creed as part of our liturgy, but no one if "forced" to do so. If you don't believe in it, don't say it. Pretty simple, actually. I know of one chap very close to my heart that leaves out a particular phrase of the Creed and no one has ever asked why he grows silent at the same place every Sunday.

I think Church serves different functions for different people. For some, it is a place for believers to come together to worship God. But it is also outreach to the world. It is also a place for the curious or those looking for something. Or those drawn to some aspect of Christiainity practice...living like Jesus, dedicating one hour of their week to being in a quiet safe space for contemplation and centering for the week ahead, organ music, doughnuts and coffee in fellowship hour, etc. People come for different reasons.

So come or not. If you come, you'd be welcome. But be forewarned. If you come you might just change your mind.

that sounds refreshing.

While my congregation is in the ELCA, my own congregation is somewhat conservative. The preaching is very evangelical but Lutheran, and alot of what is taught is very old-fashioned. It can be very intimidating if you don't believe most of it.

I felt saddened to learn a few weeks ago in a newsletter the church is facing severe financial problems, and I feel ambivalent about how I should react.

On the one hand, the pastor and church council are not interested in making changes, and in my conversations with the pastor, he hears what he wants to hear (and I'm not very forceful, I don't have a confrontational personality). I have a background in philosophy and theology and I tried to point some things out to him but over the years, it's made only a modest impact.

On the other hand, at one time in my life it was an important place that helped me through difficult times . And it's got me reflecting on my lack of attendance.

 

[GACfan]

Fine. I am interested in dialogue, not proselytism. I don't find the apologetics forum congenial to my concerns, it's too argumentative.

I understand the frustration you expressed in your OP. I don't know what kind of advice to offer you other than suggesting that perhaps you should consider attending a liberal/progressive church and steer clear of conservative type churches. I would also like to advice you to consider moving your thread to the Whosoever Will, May Come - Liberal forum, so that conservative Christians can't argue with you and impose their views on you when you clearly asked for advice from liberal Christians only.

I think you'll receive some helpful advice in the WWMC from more liberal Christians and any attempt to proselytize or argue/debate against liberal Christian views will be properly dealt with by the staff.

 

[jahel]

It sounds like you connect with that part of you that is the seat of God but chose to call it still the nameless God, the Mars Hill one that Paul did name, while being aware of the numerous other things men call gods?

Psalms 51:
Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.

 

[GOD Shines Forth!]

I would also like to advice you to consider moving your thread to the Whosoever Will, May Come - Liberal forum, so that conservative Christians can't argue with you and impose their views on you when you clearly asked for advice from liberal Christians only.

That’s great advice. Please note that per THIS forum's rules, no conservative Christians argued or imposed anything on anyone, as only (theologically) ORTHODOX believers are allowed to respond to the OP in the first place (thread title to the contrary).

 

[mkgal1]

FireDragon - in our area we have a community that's an interfaith group that gathers about once a quarter for fellowship (and sometimes community outreach - like giving away meals for holidays, or backpacks for school children, etc). I wonder if you'd feel "at home" with a group like that? Typically groups like this make great efforts to see people as individuals and are easily able to accept differences. IOW.....you can be yourself and still be celebrated and valued.

 

[NBB]

Happens what happens, you shouldn't abandon Jesus, less because of what man does, the important thing is to try to get along with God not everyone else.

 

[hedrick]

It's hard to know just how to help. If you don't believe in God, in my view you aren't a Christian. Jesus viewed his mission as establishing God's rule, and his concept of God as father was integral to his ethical teaching.

However I recognize that there are non-Christians who are very close to us in their vision of how to live, and who may find spiritual practices helpful. There's a non-Christian associated with our congregation who has children who are members. He attends activities and helps with our annual youth mission trip. Although not a formal member, we certainly consider him part of our family. It seems that you're looking for a relationship like that.

I don't know how many churches are open to that kind of thing. I'd guess a lot of mainline churches would be, but it would depend upon the congregation.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm not allowed to post in Whosoever Will May Come, as I identify as a Non-Christian. I have insufficient privileges.

I understand the desire to have this be a safe space for Christians, but it can be difficult for someone like me to meaningfully interact with others here. I'm not allowed to ask any questions directly to faith communities I was involved with, or to seek their guidance.