For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is

lifepsyop

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Exodus 20:11

This post is directed at professing Christians who claim that a plain, straightforward reading of Genesis (6 days of creation, worldwide flood, etc.) is some kind of metaphorical or symbolic story, not to be taken literally, as actual events..

Jesus Christ says he is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. If anyone is an authority on the history of the world, it is Him.
He was there from the beginning of creation.
Jesus is The Word made flesh.
Jesus testified to the flood of Noah as a warning of the judgment to come. (Luke 17:26)

Remember, the flood of Noah is an account containing specifics on times and dates (In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month...) With details like this, we are clearly not reading some kind of metaphorical story or parable. It's almost as if God is showing us a giant flashing neon sign that this was a real event. Why can't the professing Christian simply believe it?

The entire account of Jesus Christ is intimately intertwined with the whole Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. He IS the word.

Theistic Evolution is a surrender/compromise of the clear word of God in order to conform to man's creation story... I'm sure some Christians actually believe the evolutionary narrative, and some I'm also sure just want to have a foot in both camps. They want Jesus, but they're also afraid of looking foolish to the world, so they compromise on the word, without really understanding how much it undermines the rest of scripture. What does that do to one's faith? And the faith of others? For other people to see you both believing and not believing. ("Maybe we don't really have to be worried about the judgment of God... it's not like a lot of this stuff really happened... Maybe sin isn't even real....") I can only imagine how many souls have slipped away... what a tempting pathway that compromise leaves open, to subtract any parts of scripture that we aren't comfortable with.

And how many would-be believers have turned away in doubt, because so many professing Christians themselves are teaching that the Bible is a collection of stories that didn't really happen? What kind of message does this send to the world, about how little faith you have in what God said he did? Why should anyone believe God's words, if even his supposed representatives don't?

Is the story of Jesus simply a moral lesson about sacrificing and being a good person? Or was he really the Son of God, who died on the cross for our sins, and was raised from the dead? Did this stuff really happen or not?

I shudder to think of standing before God one day and confessing to him that I taught people all sorts of things in his clear word was fake. That is a terrifying thought. And why did we do it? What was in our heart? Did we really believe the compromise? Or was social acceptance in the world more important than faith in the Word?

1 Timothy 6:19-20

Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
 

Danielwright2311

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The devil is a liar and so are his people who lie the lies they do.

They are pretend Christians who do not follow the bible, we must reject this thinking and reject this world as Jesus did.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Exodus 20:11

This post is directed at professing Christians who claim that a plain, straightforward reading of Genesis (6 days of creation, worldwide flood, etc.) is some kind of metaphorical or symbolic story, not to be taken literally, as actual events..

Jesus Christ says he is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. If anyone is an authority on the history of the world, it is Him.
He was there from the beginning of creation.
Jesus is The Word made flesh.
Jesus testified to the flood of Noah as a warning of the judgment to come. (Luke 17:26)

Remember, the flood of Noah is an account containing specifics on times and dates (In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month...) With details like this, we are clearly not reading some kind of metaphorical story or parable. It's almost as if God is showing us a giant flashing neon sign that this was a real event. Why can't the professing Christian simply believe it?

The entire account of Jesus Christ is intimately intertwined with the whole Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. He IS the word.

Theistic Evolution is a surrender/compromise of the clear word of God in order to conform to man's creation story... I'm sure some Christians actually believe the evolutionary narrative, and some I'm also sure just want to have a foot in both camps. They want Jesus, but they're also afraid of looking foolish to the world, so they compromise on the word, without really understanding how much it undermines the rest of scripture. What does that do to one's faith? And the faith of others? For other people to see you both believing and not believing. ("Maybe we don't really have to be worried about the judgment of God... it's not like a lot of this stuff really happened... Maybe sin isn't even real....") I can only imagine how many souls have slipped away... what a tempting pathway that compromise leaves open, to subtract any parts of scripture that we aren't comfortable with.

And how many would-be believers have turned away in doubt, because so many professing Christians themselves are teaching that the Bible is a collection of stories that didn't really happen? What kind of message does this send to the world, about how little faith you have in what God said he did? Why should anyone believe God's words, if even his supposed representatives don't?

Is the story of Jesus simply a moral lesson about sacrificing and being a good person? Or was he really the Son of God, who died on the cross for our sins, and was raised from the dead? Did this stuff really happen or not?

I shudder to think of standing before God one day and confessing to him that I taught people all sorts of things in his clear word was fake. That is a terrifying thought. And why did we do it? What was in our heart? Did we really believe the compromise? Or was social acceptance in the world more important than faith in the Word?

1 Timothy 6:19-20

Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

...you might want to know that all of what you've just said could apply to some folks, but in my case it's a gross oversimplification. As a fellow Christian, I won't hold it against you since I'm guessing that you "know not what you do" in this instance and that you most likely mean well in providing this 'warning' to our various onlookers. However, please keep in mind that you haven't even scratched the surface of what's in my mind...or heart.

Blessings! :cool:
 
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Lazarus Short

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Your title announces, "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is..." Yet, though no creation account in the Bible says that God made Hell, most Christians believe it to be true. We err by disbelieving God's Word, but believing what is NOT there is also to err.
 
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lifepsyop

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...you might want to know that all of what you've just said could apply to some folks, but in my case it's a gross oversimplification. As a fellow Christian, I won't hold it against you since I'm guessing that you "know not what you do" in this instance and that you most likely mean well in providing this 'warning' to our various onlookers. However, please keep in mind that you haven't even scratched the surface of what's in my mind...or heart.

Blessings! :cool:

Then what do you believe? Did the accounts in Genesis happen as plainly written or not? Please share.
 
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lifepsyop

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Your title announces, "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is..." Yet, though no creation account in the Bible says that God made Hell, most Christians believe it to be true. We err by disbelieving God's Word, but believing what is NOT there is also to err.

So do you believe the Genesis account as plainly written or not?
 
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Lazarus Short

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So do you believe the Genesis account as plainly written or not?

Even though parts of Genesis are done with a rather broad brush, I believe all of it. I'm just pointing out that God states that He made the heavens and the earth...but did not mention having made hell along with them. We see the phrase "heaven and earth" over and over in the Bible, but no corresponding "hell and earth." I have concluded, based on that, that the cosmos is a hierarchy, not a duality between Heaven and Hell, with us as a contested prize between them.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Then what do you believe? Did the accounts in Genesis happen as plainly written or not? Please share.

The accounts in the first 3 chapters of Genesis weren't intended to be metaphor, if that's what you mean. No, it's Cosmogony and Theology ... written as a Historicized Hebrew Genealogy. It's not like any kind of history writing that we do today. And when I say this, I say this with a very general nod to various biblical scholars and commentators, such as the late Conrad Hyers, among others like Peter Enns or Denis O. Lamoureux, who don't all agree among themselves but nevertheless come to some similar conclusions. Here's an example:

Was Adam a Real Person? - Articles

And another: The Genre of Genesis 1 is "Cosmogony"

Here's a third example: The Hebrew Word “Yom” Used with a Number in Genesis 1

For my part, what needs to change in our hermeneutical handling of the first chapters of the Bible is to stop treating them as some kind of magically formulated text akin to Kabbalah or perfect historical and scientific type articulations (because they're not) ... rather, we should read them as generally inspired texts written to serve as theology for its people and as polemic against the already inverted theology of the pagan nations that surrounded the early Israelites.
 
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jacks

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Christians who don't hold a literal interpretation of the Bible, have never bothered me. The Bible does not stand or fall on the absolute accuracy of each detail. It is not a textbook of science, history or archeology. It is about the purpose of life, the meaning of the world in which we live and the reality of spirit that lies beyond the material. It unravels the mysteries of life to tell us who we truly are and how we should be living and how we are able to do it. (Only through the grace of God.) The Bible brings us closer to the absolute truths about ourselves, our world and most importantly our gracious Lord Jesus Christ. Arguing and judging each other is not what the Bible teaches us.
 
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lifepsyop

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For my part, what needs to change in our hermeneutical handling of the first chapters of the Bible is to stop treating them as some kind of magically formulated text akin to Kabbalah or perfect historical and scientific type articulations (because they're not) ... rather, we should read them as generally inspired texts written to serve as theology for its people and as polemic against the already inverted theology of the pagan nations that surrounded the early Israelites.

So Genesis is God-inspired, but it can't just mean what it plainly says? Why? Because it's hard to hear?

What about the worldwide flood account in Genesis? (That Jesus himself testified to, by the way) This contains many very specific timings of events. (on this exact day this happened, then this happened for this many days, etc.) It reads nothing like an allegory or 'general theology' or whatever. It plainly reads like a detailed historical account. Does this plain reading go to the dustbin as well?

Was Jesus who he said he was? Did he cast out real demons?

Could you give a brief overview of what you actually believe? I'm assuming you're a theistic evolutionist?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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So Genesis is God-inspired, but it can't just mean what it plainly says? Why? Because it's hard to hear?
Goodness gracious! *chuckle* ... no, it's not because it's "hard to hear." Genesis is God-inspired, but it was articulated (or allowed to be articulated) within the modes of thought that were prevalent at that time, not those of 'our' time. What Moses and the other Israelites were writing has historical reflection in various, literary and resentational ways, just not in literary modes of writing that we are accustomed to today. So, did God "make" the earth and everything in it? Yes, but not in a simplistic fashion as a childish, English reading of Genesis may predispose us and incline us to do.

What about the worldwide flood account in Genesis? (That Jesus himself testified to, by the way) This contains many very specific timings of events. (on this exact day this happened, then this happened for this many days, etc.) It reads nothing like an allegory or 'general theology' or whatever. It plainly reads like a detailed historical account. Does this plain reading go to the dustbin as well?
I don't think there was a "global" flood, even if there was likely local flooding of various kings in past ages, one theological expression of which (like in many cultures) we find remaining in the ancient texts that have been handed on to us. One would almost think by your inferences that 'worldwide' meant "Big Round Earth" to Moses, but I'm pretty sure it didn't. Besides, Moses wasn't 'there' to see the event(s) first hand. However, the Exodus events, in Moses' case, report a different kind of historical type account than that which we find in Genesis, right?

Was Jesus who he said he was? Did he cast out real demons?
Being that the New Testament is a different level of cultural writing than was that which Moses produce in a different culture many centuries earlier, I'm confident that what we have in the New Testament from Paul, Peter and associates approximates and represents more closely the actual events of Jesus' ministry and Resurrection than does the Flood account[s?] of Genesis from Moses represent some Flood of the past.

Could you give a brief overview of what you actually believe? I'm assuming you're a theistic evolutionist?
A brief overview? I could give that, but I'm afraid that if I present something that is merely headed by several bullet points it will give the impression that I just easily came to such conclusions, but here you go:

* The Bible is not inerrant, but it is inspired, and by inspired I mean God-motivated, but not directly written by God (except perhaps in a sense for those portions where the writers may actually be 'quoting' the things God said to Moses and the prophets, or that Jesus said to the disciples.)

* Jesus historically lived and died, and we believe through the testimony of His Church that He rose again.

* We respond to God through Jesus Christ and by the Holy Spirit, and we further believe He will return someday after we (and the world) contend with the ongoing Apocalyptic events over which God is Lord.

* And that about sums it up in a nutshell. ...Oh, I almost forgot. I hold to a more inter-denominational, philosophical approach to our Christian faith, which means charity and grace first, judgement last.

:cool:
 
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lifepsyop

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Goodness gracious! *chuckle* ... no, it's not because it's "hard to hear." Genesis is God-inspired, but it was articulated (or allowed to be articulated) within the modes of thought that were prevalent at that time, not those of 'our' time.

Evolution was not an alien concept to ancient people. Some of the oldest belief systems have animals evolving into totally different forms via innate energies, as well as life spontaneously generating out of the earth and sea. There is no apparent reason God couldn't have just told the truth if theistic evolution were actually true. The same can be said for long ages.

Furthermore, a prevalant patterns in the OT is that of God giving instruction that his people did not want to hear because it seemed too impossible. How could God possibly bring the Israelites safely out of Egyptian slavery? God did not hold back in his hard instruction, even knowing people would likely reject him due to their unbelief and lack of faith. He still told them what they didn't want to hear. They continuously rejected God's will even after being in the presence of miracle after miracle. So the premise that God would communicate untrue creation fairytales to make it easier for people to receive just doesn't hold up.


What Moses and the other Israelites were writing has historical reflection in various, literary and resentational ways, just not in literary modes of writing that we are accustomed to today. So, did God "make" the earth and everything in it? Yes, but not in a simplistic fashion as a childish, English reading of Genesis may predispose us and incline us to do.

It's as simple as the view you want to take of it. Theistic Evolution could be described simply as well... "And on the third age, the fish of the sea ascended onto the muddy banks, and behold, there were feet, and they walked upright according to their new dominion...." and so forth.

I imagine a microscopic view of the real 6-day creation would have been anything but simplistic to witness. I pray someday I get to watch a replay of it.


I don't think there was a "global" flood...

Being that the New Testament is a different level of cultural writing than was that which Moses produce in a different culture many centuries earlier, I'm confident that what we have in the New Testament from Paul, Peter and associates approximates and represents more closely the actual events of Jesus' ministry and Resurrection than does the Flood account[s?] of Genesis from Moses represent some Flood of the past.

Jesus testified to the Genesis flood and compared it to his 2nd coming and God's judgment over the whole world.

Do you think Jesus believed the flood was global? It sounds like he did.


A brief overview? I could give that, but I'm afraid that if I present something that is merely headed by several bullet points it will give the impression that I just easily came to such conclusions, but here you go:

* The Bible is not inerrant, but it is inspired, and by inspired I mean God-motivated, but not directly written by God (except perhaps in a sense for those portions where the writers may actually be 'quoting' the things God said to Moses and the prophets, or that Jesus said to the disciples.)

* Jesus historically lived and died, and we believe through the testimony of His Church that He rose again.

* We respond to God through Jesus Christ and by the Holy Spirit, and we further believe He will return someday after we (and the world) contend with the ongoing Apocalyptic events over which God is Lord.

* And that about sums it up in a nutshell. ...Oh, I almost forgot. I hold to a more inter-denominational, philosophical approach to our Christian faith, which means charity and grace first, judgement last.

:cool:

Thanks for that.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Evolution was not an alien concept to ancient people. Some of the oldest belief systems have animals evolving into totally different forms via innate energies, as well as life spontaneously generating out of the earth and sea. There is no apparent reason God couldn't have just told the truth if theistic evolution were actually true. The same can be said for long ages.
I'm familiar with Lucretius, but you're saying that ancient peoples more ancient than the Greeks believed in evolution as we now think of it? Really? Which people groups were those? But even if this is the case, I'm not sure how you're saying this makes it either true or relevant to our discussion.

As for not divulging all information, God has had some reasons for not divulging an all encompassing platform of data to the Israelite or, I suppose, to us.

Furthermore, a prevalant patterns in the OT is that of God giving instruction that his people did not want to hear because it seemed too impossible. How could God possibly bring the Israelites safely out of Egyptian slavery? God did not hold back in his hard instruction, even knowing people would likely reject him due to their unbelief and lack of faith. He still told them what they didn't want to hear. They continuously rejected God's will even after being in the presence of miracle after miracle. So the premise that God would communicate untrue creation fairytales to make it easier for people to receive just doesn't hold up.
Not all of them rejected God's Will. Those who didn't, like Caleb and Joshua, plunged ahead with God's blessing.

It's as simple as the view you want to take of it. Theistic Evolution could be described simply as well... "And on the third age, the fish of the sea ascended onto the muddy banks, and behold, there were feet, and they walked upright according to their new dominion...." and so forth.
Well, brother, if you want to think that, that's fine by me. I have no reason to ex-communicate you if you want to go that path of belief.

I imagine a microscopic view of the real 6-day creation would have been anything but simplistic to witness. I pray someday I get to watch a replay of it.
ok. And I imagine 13.5 billions years since a Big Bang and ... here we are.

Jesus testified to the Genesis flood and compared it to his 2nd coming and God's judgment over the whole world.
Jesus was Jewish, so I'm not surprised if He thought similar thoughts to what most Jews of His time thought.

Do you think Jesus believed the flood was global? It sounds like he did.
No, because I don't think Jesus knew that the world was round.

Thanks for that.
You're welcome.
 
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lifepsyop

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I'm familiar with Lucretius, but you're saying that ancient peoples more ancient than the Greeks believed in evolution as we now think of it? Really? Which people groups were those? But even if this is the case, I'm not sure how you're saying this makes it either true or relevant to our discussion.

There are evolutionary ideas in the Vedas that go back much further than that I believe, including a gradual unfolding of the universe, very similar to the modern Big-Bang creation belief.

This is a pretty good run-down of some of them:

Most of the biological evolutionary beliefs seem to be more recent to the 1st millenium BC, but the point is such concepts were in fact ancient belief systems, existing long before what we would call modern science. And certainly God could have communicated a very dumbed-down version of Evolutionary creation, without needing to go into details of phylogeny and population genetics.

So there is no apparent reason God could not have just communicated some simplified version of the Evolutionary creation story to ancient man, if that was in fact how he created. But it didn't happen that way. We already know what happened because God told us. He created the universe and the earth and everything in them in 6 days.

As for not divulging all information, God has had some reasons for not divulging an all encompassing platform of data to the Israelite or, I suppose, to us.

I'm sure God has withheld tons of information from us, but that's a totally different thing than claiming he purposefully fed us incorrect information, especially about something so foundational as the creation of the world, the origin of sin and evil in the world, his judgments against us, the origin of distinct languages and nations. The idea that God purposefully fed us an untrue mythology about the foundation of everything is perverse. Especially when we have Jesus upholding the validity of it.

Not all of them rejected God's Will. Those who didn't, like Caleb and Joshua, plunged ahead with God's blessing.

Yes but so many other times was God's instructions rejected. Jesus was rejected and God knew he would be. The notion of God telling sweet lies to help get people on board is definitely not in his character. God is all about giving the hard truth, despite scaring the crap out of people along the way.

And he did give us the truth, knowing it would be rejected by many.

You think he didn't know that the religion of Evolution would come to reign over the world in these latter times? He did know, and that's probably why he made sure we had an actual account of creation. It forces people to make a choice. You either believe what God said he did, or you don't.


Jesus was Jewish, so I'm not surprised if He thought similar thoughts to what most Jews of His time thought.

This is Jesus:

John 1:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not......
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name....
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


He was there from the foundations of creation.
Jesus is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end.
And if you begin cutting out the beginning, you're also cutting off the end.
As Jesus said himself, his return would be like the beginning. (the flood of Noah's time)
Jesus is not just a figure that shows up in the middle of the Biblical narrative. The whole book is about him.

To say the beginning, the cornerstone, is all allegorical fairytales, what are you really saying?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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There are evolutionary ideas in the Vedas that go back much further than that I believe, including a gradual unfolding of the universe, very similar to the modern Big-Bang creation belief.

This is a pretty good run-down of some of them:

Most of the biological evolutionary beliefs seem to be more recent to the 1st millenium BC, but the point is such concepts were in fact ancient belief systems, existing long before what we would call modern science. And certainly God could have communicated a very dumbed-down version of Evolutionary creation, without needing to go into details of phylogeny and population genetics.

So there is no apparent reason God could not have just communicated some simplified version of the Evolutionary creation story to ancient man, if that was in fact how he created. But it didn't happen that way. We already know what happened because God told us. He created the universe and the earth and everything in them in 6 days.



I'm sure God has withheld tons of information from us, but that's a totally different thing than claiming he purposefully fed us incorrect information, especially about something so foundational as the creation of the world, the origin of sin and evil in the world, his judgments against us, the origin of distinct languages and nations. The idea that God purposefully fed us an untrue mythology about the foundation of everything is perverse. Especially when we have Jesus upholding the validity of it.



Yes but so many other times was God's instructions rejected. Jesus was rejected and God knew he would be. The notion of God telling sweet lies to help get people on board is definitely not in his character. God is all about giving the hard truth, despite scaring the crap out of people along the way.

And he did give us the truth, knowing it would be rejected by many.

You think he didn't know that the religion of Evolution would come to reign over the world in these latter times? He did know, and that's probably why he made sure we had an actual account of creation. It forces people to make a choice. You either believe what God said he did, or you don't.




This is Jesus:

John 1:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not......
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name....
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


He was there from the foundations of creation.
Jesus is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end.
And if you begin cutting out the beginning, you're also cutting off the end.
As Jesus said himself, his return would be like the beginning. (the flood of Noah's time)
Jesus is not just a figure that shows up in the middle of the Biblical narrative. The whole book is about him.

To say the beginning, the cornerstone, is all allegorical fairytales, what are you really saying?

I'm going to assume that in your presenting to me a 1 hour plus video to thoroughly watch, think about, become informed by, and discuss with you.......................that you'll ALSO be engaging any sources and materials that I present (or have already presented) to you as well, right? This isn't going to turn into some Uni-Lateral monologue with you leading me by the nose, right?
 
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lifepsyop

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I'm going to assume that in your presenting to me a 1 hour plus video to thoroughly watch, think about, become informed by, and discuss with you.......................that you'll ALSO be engaging any sources and materials that I present (or have already presented) to you as well, right? This isn't going to turn into some Uni-Lateral monologue with you leading me by the nose, right?

The video is not essential to my argument, just thought you might be interested.

Anyone can swing over to wikipedia:

History of evolutionary thought - Wikipedia

The central idea of Evolution is not just a sophisticated concept of the modern world. These beliefs have been around since ancient times... thousands of years before anything resembling what we would call a modern scientific theory.

So your argument that "God couldn't have told ancient man he used evolution because they wouldn't understand it" does not hold up, in my opinion. He could have communicated a simplified version of it very easily, if that was the truth.

But it isn't. Instead He made everything in 6 days, like he said. It's now up to us whether we want to believe God or believe men.
 
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The video is not essential to my argument, just thought you might be interested.

Anyone can swing over to wikipedia:

History of evolutionary thought - Wikipedia

The central idea of Evolution is not just a sophisticated concept of the modern world. These beliefs have been around since ancient times... thousands of years before anything resembling what we would call a modern scientific theory.

So your argument that "God couldn't have told ancient man he used evolution because they wouldn't understand it" does not hold up, in my opinion. He could have communicated a simplified version of it very easily, if that was the truth.

But it isn't. Instead He made everything in 6 days, like he said. It's now up to us whether we want to believe God or believe men.

Did I actually say "God couldn't have told ancient man ....."?
 
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