For clarity: When you baptize a baby...

[OrthodoxyUSA]

When you baptize a baby you are making a promise to raise the child and teach it as a Christian.

Make your vows unto the Lord.

Forgive me...

 

[Dave G.]

In the Roman Catholic Church back in the days when I was there, they said it was for cleansing of what they termed "original sin". And yes there were God parents who vowed to raise the child in the Catholic Faith should something happen to the parents.

On to your theory: Why does a baby need to have a few drops of water sprinkled on it's head for adults to take vows to faithfully raise the baby Christian ? Seems to me you would lay hands or pray over the adults involved, not the baby who knows nothing about faith. At best sprinkling the baby is a feel good gesture.

Baptism as I know it is a personal and willful, open and public confession of faith in Jesus Christ and is full immersion like Jesus himself was dunked. If that was right for our Lord, what's with the shortcut version of sprinkling an unwilling baby, not capable of a willing full immersion ? My view is they do that child an injustice through twisted views of what baptism really is.. Once again a man made doctrine turned into a ritual tradition.

But it's just my view, I wonder what Jesus would do ? Wait a minute, He did it !!!!!!

 

[DamianWarS]

When you baptize a baby you are making a promise to raise the child and teach it as a Christian.

Make your vows unto the Lord.

Forgive me...

how does it relate to the word "christening"

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Orthodox baptism is by triple immersion. No matter who it is...
What it is for, is exactly what the Church taught you. The removal of the stain of original sin. Any and all sins for that matter.

We have never had an age of accountability, that a person is, from then on, counted culpable for their personal transgressions. We know that happens at different ages for different people. We start as early as possible.

Baptized infants are historic, baptizing whole families is even scriptual.

Baptism itself is not a mental exercise.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

how does it relate to the word "christening"

That’s a great question. I don’t know the answer.

Forgive me...

 

[DamianWarS]

That’s a great question. I don’t know the answer.

Forgive me...

then what is the value behind christening according to Orthodox or is the terminology not emphasised.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

then what is the value behind christening according to Orthodox or is the terminology not emphasised.

I’m afraid the term is altogether absent.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

then what is the value behind christening according to Orthodox or is the terminology not emphasised.

I just looked up the word. It started being used in England in 1250-1300. Sounds like it’s a local English tradition.

Forgive me...

 

[DamianWarS]

I just looked up the word. It started being used in England in 1250-1300. Sounds like it’s a local English tradition.

Forgive me...

My apologies for assuming that terminology, and it makes sense it is a word rooted in English values and customs.

Evangelicals tend to "dedicate" their babies for the same values that you described in the OP and they typically point to something from Samuel but I've always felt it is misrepresenting the text in doing this even if still with honorable intentions. I've never figure out why there is such an allergy to infant baptism among these circles.

what role does baptism play in salvation according to Orthodox tradition.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

What role does baptism play in salvation according to Orthodox tradition.

Salvation doesnt work the same in The Orthodox Churches as it does in others. I think we would have to have that discussion first. Some unpacking...

For the Orthodox salvation is about being healed from all spiritual infirmity.

So in effect, the “role of baptism toward salvation” could be very little or very great. Depending on the depth of the spiritual injury.

We might also make the point that this marks a persons beginning in a Christian life.

Forgive me...

 

[Dave G.]

Salvation doesnt work the same in The Orthodox Churches as it does in others. I think we would have to have that discussion first. Some unpacking...

For the Orthodox salvation is about being healed from all spiritual infirmity.

So in effect, it could be very little or very great. Depending on the depth of the spiritual injury.

We might also make the point that this marks a persons beginning in a Christian life.

Forgive me...

What could be very little or very great ? Some kind of work ( I'm supposing here) ?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

What could be very little or very great ? Some kind of work ( I'm supposing here) ?

The role of baptism in salvation.

Forgive me...

 

[DamianWarS]

Salvation doesnt work the same in The Orthodox Churches as it does in others. I think we would have to have that discussion first. Some unpacking...

For the Orthodox salvation is about being healed from all spiritual infirmity.

So in effect, it could be very little or very great. Depending on the depth of the spiritual injury.

We might also make the point that this marks a persons beginning in a Christian life.

Forgive me...

what is the difference between an infant before baptism and one after baptism

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

what is the difference between an infant before baptism and one after baptism

One is inside The Church, known to The Church, being prayed for by The Church by name.

Forgive me...

 

[Dave G.]

One is inside The Church, known to The Church, being prayed for by The Church by name.

Forgive me...

But you said infant baptism washes away original "stain". And you said one is not saved until all sin is removed. And you said that the more sin the more is washed in baptism. And now you have lost me. Is there a second baptism in adulthood ?

 

[DamianWarS]

One is inside The Church, known to The Church, being prayed for by The Church by name.

Forgive me...

There are many baptised who are estranged to the church, some who never known the church, and there must be others who are known and even prayed for by name who are not baptised. This seems more of a desired product rather than an inherited or unique product of baptism.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

There are many baptised who are estranged to the church, some who never known the church, and there must be others who are known and even prayed for by name who are not baptised. This seems more of a desired product rather than an inherited or unique product of baptism.

There would be some concern about the legitimacy of a baptism done outside The Church.

For instance, how was it done, who did it, and what did it mean?

Some people coming into The Orthodox Church only need to complete their baptism, because of how it was done and what it meant. Others find out that their “baptism” was not what is expected and need to go through the entire ritual.

This is water baptsim were talking about.

For The Orthodox Church, it must be done by triple immersion, in the name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit for the remission of sin. If it wasn’t done that way then we will baptize the person as soon as possible.

A one time, triple dunk, for the remission of sin, in the name of The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit.

Forgive me...

 

[Dave G.]

and need to go through the entire ritual.


..

What does the "entire ritual" consist of ?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

But you said infant baptism washes away original "stain". And you said one is not saved until all sin is removed. And you said that the more sin the more is washed in baptism. And now you have lost me. Is there a second baptism in adulthood ?

The confusion has to do with how you are looking at salvation. An infant has the mercy of a Great God. The stain of that original sin his not his or hers. The child is blameless.

At what point exactly does a child become culpable, we cannot say. At what age does the sickness of sin directly attack a person? It’s a lot like spirtual immunization. Pneumonia could strike at any time.

I would guess that your view of salvation has a “Yes, I am saved moment!” Meanwhile many of those in The Orthodox Church are struggling to be blameless because the view of salvation is as a spiritual healing ministry.

Do you see what I mean?

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

What does the "entire ritual" consist of ?

For me thats an easy one, I have set up that service many many times. Got my service book right here.

Let me preface by saying in todays environment we teach first and baptize later. Opposite of what we used to do before Christianity was legal.

First we must deal with a lifetime confession. This is to the clergy (doctors if you will) but ‘for the congregation to know that you have given a good confession’ but without them having to hear the details. You are confessing to Christ, not the clergy. He’s only there as a witness for the congregation.

Next there is a period of fasting for adults. Children don’t really need any preperation. It’s a time for reflection.

Then we make a verbal set of statements before the congregation about our beliefs just before services, you know this as exorcism. (Not what you think) You spit on the devil, turn and make entrance into the congregation.

There you will be baptised by triple immersion in the name of The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit. You will be annointed with oil. You will be confirmed in The Holy Spirit while the congregation responds with verbal commands of “SEAL SEAL SEAL”. Full absolution is confirmed to the congration by the clergy’s announcement.

Your hair will be cut (three small pieces) and burned in the censor in the name of The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit.

You will take your first communion.

The Epistle of the occasion is read. St. Paul to the Romans
The Holy Gospel is read.

Some singing “God grant you many years” and worship of the Liturgy continues.

Forgive me...