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Erose

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Read the entire statement of the Council, not just bits of it.
They were stating that Leo was in accord with Cyril and themselves; in fact, they measured Leo's statement against Cyril's, and almost the entire finding was a reiteration of Cyril's words - quotations in fact - with a limited use of Leo's. The statement itself does not single out Leo as the only such speaker - but that Leo is in agreement with the apostolic witness that is the standard of the Council.

Last year, Philothei and myself translated this from the Greek -- the statement and thrust is in no wise a statement on the patriarchate of Rome.
I have read the entire statement of the Council and in no way does it weaken my statement. The statement, which I was arguing against, proposed that it was Leo who came up with the idea that Rome was the see of Peter. Well if that was the case there should have been some arguments against this by the Eastern Fathers and there was not.
 
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Ave Maria

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I believe that papal supremacy is indeed correct. I mean, there is much biblical evidence for this as well as evidence in Sacred Tradition. I would be lying to myself if I said that the office of the papacy isn't correct.
 
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Thekla

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I have read the entire statement of the Council and in no way does it weaken my statement. The statement, which I was arguing against, proposed that it was Leo who came up with the idea that Rome was the see of Peter. Well if that was the case there should have been some arguments against this by the Eastern Fathers and there was not.

But why should it not be a see of Peter ?
That does not give Rome unilateral weight against the entire Church, nor abrogate the conciliar nature of the Ekklesia.
 
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Thekla

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I believe that papal supremacy is indeed correct. I mean, there is much biblical evidence for this as well as evidence in Sacred Tradition. I would be lying to myself if I said that the office of the papacy isn't correct.

There is no acta of Council, no canon of an Ecumenical Council, and no demonstration of such a role as "papal supremacy" in the early history of the Church; it is a later addition claimed by one see. That one see came to this conclusion without "katholiki/according to the whole" is telling.
 
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Erose

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I don't have the full text,
OK

How can a communion which is already in existence be restored ?
You are quoting someone's speculation and nothing more. Is there some official document that outline's Melitius' loss of communion with Rome?

Not in this case. And this was also a problem in China as well - a bishop was needed (a year again), the Vatican would not give approval, so the Chinese Church did it themselves. (Its not been sorted out yet.)
The Catholic underground church in China is a Roman Catholic church and is under the direct authority of the Patriarchate of Rome. What happen in China was that the state forced some of the underground bishops to attend to ordination of some bishops for the state run catholic church. This is what the Vatican was protesting. The state-run catholic church is not in communion with Rome while the underground Catholic church is. There are many bishops and priests in good standing with the Catholic church living their lives in prisons over there for not joining the state run church.

The Vatican must okay it.
Again only the patriarchate of Rome. The other patriarchates appoint their own patriarchs and the patriarchs according to their own canon laws appoint their own bishops and priests.
 
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Thekla

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You are quoting someone's speculation and nothing more. Is there some official document that outline's Melitius' loss of communion with Rome?

Page 350 (in case the link doesn't go to page, scroll back as the entire chapter is on this subject):
The primitive saints and the see of Rome - Frederick William Puller - Google Books

The Catholic underground church in China is a Roman Catholic church and is under the direct authority of the Patriarchate of Rome. What happen in China was that the state forced some of the underground bishops to attend to ordination of some bishops for the state run catholic church. This is what the Vatican was protesting. The state-run catholic church is not in communion with Rome while the underground Catholic church is. There are many bishops and priests in good standing with the Catholic church living their lives in prisons over there for not joining the state run church.
Thank-you; I heard it on the news and found it quite sad.

Again only the patriarchate of Rome. The other patriarchates appoint their own patriarchs and the patriarchs according to their own canon laws appoint their own bishops and priests.
It must be approved by the Vatican.
 
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Erose

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But why should it not be a see of Peter ?
That does not give Rome unilateral weight against the entire Church, nor abrogate the conciliar nature of the Ekklesia.
The problem I see that alot of Orthodox christians have with the Papacy is really a misconception. The Pope doesn't lord it over the rest of the Church as some supreme leader with absolute power. It just doesn't work that way. That is just not how the leadership of the Church is constructed. The best way in my opinion to discribe the leadership structure of the Catholic church is a "bottom-up" structure. One of the titles of the pope is "Servant of the Servants of God" and this is probably the best explanation of his role.

Whenever in history the pope tried to lead from top down it never really worked effectively and there was much problems and I believe that if you look at the system now it has been perfected to the point were it would be very difficult for a pope to lead top-down.

Anyway the pope is not some king or emporer. He is a shepherd just like every other bishop. What is the function of a bishop? Well to serve the servants of God in their diocese or eparchy right? His primary function is to guide as many Christians to heaven as he possibly can by maintaining the orthodoxy and unity of his jurisdiction. The Patriarchs do this as well over their jurisdiction right? If a bishop starts leading his flock astray what is the function of the Patriarch? What does he do? First he tries to prevent this by vetting the canidates to the episcopate to insure that they are sound in their doctrine and faith right? If this fails he then does what? He first tries with the help of the other regional bishops to exert pressure on the bad bishop to repent and get back on track. If this doesn't work then he starts the process of removing the bishop from his office by usually a regional synod.

Well the pope does the same thing and has that same authority. The only difference is that he can do it on a church wide scale if it merits that level of intrusion. His primary function is to protect the orthodoxy and faith of the Church. The same function as all bishops but on a churchwide scale instead of only on a regional scale. Does he do this function in a vacuum as is being assumed? No, he doesn't. That is the reason for councils and synods.
 
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Montalban

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I'm still confused here. Why do you say that Meletius was not in communion with Rome? I have found no where showing that Meletius was excommunicated by the Pope or that Meletius was formally declared a heretic by the Pope.
Kelly says he was not in communion - you may have missed that explicitly saying so.

Meletius was not the Pope's candidate for the See.

Besides being in communion with the Catholic church just requires you to be Catholic and as far as I can tell Meletius was never not Catholic. The problem in Antioch was due to a schism caused by the Emperor Constans after he banished Meletius and appointed Paulinus, and was made much worse due to the Arians and other political factors.
Not quite. The 'schism' was one of the Pope and the Pope in Alexandria supporting Paulinus. Not Meletius.

If you want to suggest that Catholicism accepts bishops not supported by the Pope, that's fine

For people interested, here's a more extensive quote from Davis (highlighting added by me)
"The work of the Council of Constantinople was completed. Theologically, it had carried the logic of the Council of Nicea and cautiously applied that Council's reasoning about the Son's relation to the Father to the Holy Spirit, though confining its statement to biblical terminology. Administratively, the Council continued the eastern practice of accommodating the ecclesiastical organization to the civil organisation of the Empire, sowing the seeds for discord among the four great sees of East and West by raising the ecclesiastical status of Constantinople to correspond to its civil position as New Rome. All in all, it proved to be a remarkable Council. It was never intended to be an ecumenical council: the Bishop of Rome was not invited: only 150 Eastern bishops were present; only one by accident from the West. Only at the Council of Chalcedon of 451 did it begin to rank in the East with the Council of Nicea as more than a local council. Because of the schism at Antioch its first president, Meletius, was not in communion with Rome and Alexandria. Its second president, Gregory of Nazianzus, was not in western eyes the legitimate bishop of Constantinople. Strong doubts were later expressed about the authenticity of its creed. Its canons were rejected in the west for nine hundred years.
Davis L. D., (1990), "The First Seven Ecumenical Councils (325-787) Their History and Theology", (Liturgical Press, Minnesota), pp128-129

The pope's rep, the oddly named Lucifer went to Antioch
"Lucifer goes to Antioch and consecrates Paulinus.

It was decided therefore that Lucifer should go to Antioch in Syria, and Eusebius to Alexandria, that by assembling a Synod in conjunction with Athanasius, they might confirm the doctrines of the church. Lucifer sent a deacon as his representative, by whom he pledged himself to assent to whatever the Synod might decree; but he himself went to Antioch, where he found the church in great disorder, the people not being agreed among themselves. For not only did the Arian heresy, which had been introduced by Euzoius, divide the church, but, as we before said, the followers of Meletius also, from attachment to their teacher, separated themselves from those with whom they agreed in sentiment. When therefore Lucifer had constituted Paulinus their bishop, he again departed."
Socrates Scholasticus
"The Ecclesiastical History" Book III.6

Thus the Papal person proclaimed Paulinus bishop in direct opposition to Meletius. Meletius continued with his own support in direct opposition to the decision of the Pope's man.
"Now recall that Paulinus is the Pope's man. Meletius continued to hold church services (outside the city walls) during this time. And the two continued in 'office'. One not being the Pope's choice. An arrangement was made that when one died, the other would succeed."
Socrates Scholasticus
"The Ecclesiastical History" Book V.5

Paulinus actually argued from canon law that there should not be a co-bishop!
And of John Chrysostom; continually consecrated by Meletius, he later separated from him WITHOUT joining in communion with the Pope's man, Paulinus.
see Socrates Scholasticus
"The Ecclesiastical History"Book VI.3

"About this period Meletius, bishop of Antioch, fell sick and died: in whose praise Gregory, the brother of Basil, pronounced a funeral oration. The body of the deceased bishop was by his friends conveyed to Antioch; where those who had identified themselves with his interests again refused subjection to Paulinus, but caused Flavian to be substituted in the place of Meletius, and the people began to quarrel anew. Thus again the Antiochian church was divided into rival factions, not grounded on any difference of faith, but simply on a preference of bishops.
Socrates Scholasticus
"The Ecclesiastical History" Book V.9

And as noted John Chrysostom took orders from Flavian (after Meletius' death). Flavian was not in favour with Alexandria nor Rome. Flavian then sent messengers to Alexandria AND Rome to work out peace.
see Socrates Scholasticus
"The Ecclesiastical History" Book V.15

At that time there were several and rival claimants to be the proper patriarch in Antioch. Paulinus was the man favoured by Rome and Alexandria. Meletius was favoured by others. Jerome accompanied Paulinus back to Rome in order to get more support for him.
 
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Montalban

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Again only the patriarchate of Rome. The other patriarchates appoint their own patriarchs and the patriarchs according to their own canon laws appoint their own bishops and priests.

The pope has absolute right over ALL appointments at ALL levels.

I always find it ironic that people defending his powers try and downplay them.

The odd situation in Antioch today is that the Pope recognises three different Patriarchs!
 
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Montalban

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Catholics who have responded here may not have had the opportunity to read the whole Wiki article - I appreciate this, because it's long.

However as we seem to be looking at John Chrysostom I should like to highlight this admission from the Catholic encyclopedia...

"...that there is no clear and any direct passage in favour of the primacy of the pope."
New Advent
 
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Montalban

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I have read the entire statement of the Council and in no way does it weaken my statement. The statement, which I was arguing against, proposed that it was Leo who came up with the idea that Rome was the see of Peter. Well if that was the case there should have been some arguments against this by the Eastern Fathers and there was not.

Pope Gregory noted three Sees of Peter

"Your most sweet Holiness has spoken much in your letter to me about the chair of Saint Peter, Prince of the apostles, saying that he himself now sits on it in the persons of his successors...
Wherefore though there are many apostles, yet with regard to the principality itself the See of the Prince of the apostles alone has grown strong in authority, which in three places is the See of one...
He himself stablished (sic) the See in which, though he was to leave it, he sat for seven years. Since then it is the See of one, and one See, over which by Divine authority three bishops now preside, whatever good I hear of you, this I impute to myself. "[223]
To Eulogius, Bishop of Alexandria Book VII, Epistle XL
 
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Standing Up

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Victor it would seem, like any bishop, can refuse to commune (commemorate the Liturgy) with another.

Apparently not, because Irenaeus and others protested Victor's excommunication of 1/2 the church. IOW as noted by iveb... below, unity was paramount.


What I want to know is this: if the bishops have the right to refuse communion with others, and there is no one particular bishop that the Church is built upon for a sign of unity, are we left up to our own ability to determine which communion is proper?

Perhaps so. The Church has evolved as such. IMO, we have to agree there was "the faith once delivered" and it was fallen away from (not pointing fingers, just commenting).

Anyway, the question remains, however, why did Victor think c195ad that Rome had the right to pronounce excommunication? But at the same time, Irenaeus and others obviously didn't think he couldn't be corrected (papal infallibility).
 
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Montalban

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I believe that papal supremacy is indeed correct. I mean, there is much biblical evidence for this as well as evidence in Sacred Tradition. I would be lying to myself if I said that the office of the papacy isn't correct.

What evidence in particular?
 
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Thekla

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Apparently not, because Irenaeus and others protested Victor's excommunication of 1/2 the church. IOW as noted by iveb... below, unity was paramount.




Perhaps so. The Church has evolved as such. IMO, we have to agree there was "the faith once delivered" and it was fallen away from (not pointing fingers, just commenting).

Anyway, the question remains, however, why did Victor think c195ad that Rome had the right to pronounce excommunication? But at the same time, Irenaeus and others obviously didn't think he couldn't be corrected (papal infallibility).

:confused: He was corrected -- in gentleness, but corrected nonetheless.
 
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Montalban

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Apparently not

This is a thread for Catholics to examine evidence in the Wiki article I wrote.

It's not for people pushing the same agenda over and over again regarding Victor, the church, and changing the date of Easter.
 
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Erose

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Pope Gregory noted three Sees of Peter

"Your most sweet Holiness has spoken much in your letter to me about the chair of Saint Peter, Prince of the apostles, saying that he himself now sits on it in the persons of his successors...
Wherefore though there are many apostles, yet with regard to the principality itself the See of the Prince of the apostles alone has grown strong in authority, which in three places is the See of one...
He himself stablished (sic) the See in which, though he was to leave it, he sat for seven years. Since then it is the See of one, and one See, over which by Divine authority three bishops now preside, whatever good I hear of you, this I impute to myself. "[223]
To Eulogius, Bishop of Alexandria Book VII, Epistle XL
And your point is what? Did St. Peter start more than one Church? Yes. But it doesn't take away the position of the see of Rome as attested to the level of respect offered to it by Eastern Bishops as well as Western Bishops.
 
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Montalban

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Who elects a patriarch in an Eastern Catholic Patriarchate?

That's missing the point, as Thekla also noted - I've yet to hear of the Pope's power being circumvented by Eastern churches.

I look at this way, in Australia we have the Northern Territory. It has an elected assembly. However the federal government can over-rule it's acts (as they did regarding voluntary euthenasia) because it's not a state. It has limited power. This doesn't mean that the government 'approves' each candidate for election. But neither does it mean that they loose their power to ultimately act.

I think it's misleading to suggest that this circumvention of power happens in the Catholic Church.
 
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