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For Catholics to consider

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Montalban, Oct 22, 2011.

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  1. Montalban

    Montalban Well-Known Member

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  2. Pythons

    Pythons Well-Known Member

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    True, the keys were given to all the Apostles......
    ...And they were independently given to Peter.
    ...That looks like a check and balance mechanism to me.
     
  3. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Is that why the RCC considers Peter the first pope? Just curious and thanks :wave:

    http://www.christianforums.com/t7482717-5/#post55230984
    If not Peter, who was the first RC Pope?
     
  4. Of course eastern Christians are going to argue against it.

    But here is one better, eastern FATHERS arguing FOR it:
    Eastern Fathers and the Primacy of Peter

    The quotes are very powerful.

    It seems to be that Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom to Peter. He called him "rock" for a reason. He held a special place and his special role was described in John 21.

    There has to be someone, something on which the Church can visibly be centered on Earth. There has to be a rock where we can find the Church.

    "If the Roman See recognizes Pyrrhus to be not only a reprobate but a heretic, it is certainly plain that everyone who anathematizes those who have rejected Pyrrhus also anathematizes the See of Rome, that is, he anathematizes the Catholic Church. I need hardly add that he excommunicates himself also, if indeed he is in communion with the Roman See and the Catholic Church of God ...Let him hasten before all things to satisfy the Roman See, for if it is satisfied, all will agree in calling him pious and orthodox. For he only speaks in vain who thinks he ought to pursuade or entrap persons like myself, and does not satisfy and implore the blessed Pope of the most holy Catholic Church of the Romans, that is, the Apostolic See, which is from the incarnate of the Son of God Himself, and also all the holy synods, accodring to the holy canons and definitions has received universal and surpreme dominion, authority, and power of binding and loosing over all the holy churches of God throughout the whole world."
    -- Saint Maximus the Confessor, whom would be considered a blatant heretic in the east today if he said such things
     
  5. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Guest

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    Exactly why does "There has to be someone, something on which the Church can visibly be centered on Earth. There has to be a rock where we can find the Church."?

    Just curious.
     
  6. Pythons

    Pythons Well-Known Member

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    That's one reason - another seems to be one of logic...
    ...If everyone is in charge than no-one is in charge.

    I for one who love to see the R.C.C. and E.O. come again into one...
    ...I think there is less that divides than separates but that's just MHO.
     
  7. Montalban

    Montalban Well-Known Member

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    If the power of binding and loosing is given to all, how's that significant for claims for the bishop of Rome, who occupies only one of the Sees of Peter?
     
  8. Montalban

    Montalban Well-Known Member

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    I already dealt with many of the quotes in the article. Flinging a quote-mine at me is not a discussion

    It is in fact because the Catholic church miss-uses these Church Fathers I was drawn to write the article.

    Take for instance John Chrysostom. He spent the majority of his life out of communion with the Church of Rome.

    Whilst he praises Peter, he uses the exact same terms to praise others as well.

    One of the things that drew me away from the Catholic Church in the first place was when I thought about this use of evidence. I thought that if a church's claims are based on such deceit* then they don't really have much basis for their claims.


    *-through highly selective quoting, miss-quotes, and outright fraud - such as the "Donation of Constantine"
     
  9. Montalban

    Montalban Well-Known Member

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    Who's in charge of the Trinity?
     
  10. Montalban

    Montalban Well-Known Member

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    For Orthodox the church doesn't have to have a centre, anymore than the Trinity has to be located in a particular spot.
     
  11. tadoflamb

    tadoflamb no identificado

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    It's pretty easy to see what happens in the absence of a visible Church.
     
  12. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    The Lutherans seem to find it easy enough :)

    http://www.christianforums.com/t7369009-12/#post51752122
    What is the visible church? Where can it be found?

     
  13. Montalban

    Montalban Well-Known Member

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    I don't want to see this as an argument against 'visible' or 'invisible' churches - but the Orthodox is a visible church too, and yet from your church spawned all the Protestant groups,and according to your church, my church as well!

    What do you think of the article (referred to in OP)??
     
  14. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Guest

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    That happens to be my view, as well, which is why I posted my question. Hopefully, it will receive a response from a Catholic poster or two.
     
  15. tadoflamb

    tadoflamb no identificado

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    Me neither, mea culpa. :crossrc: However, I would argue the visiblity of Orthodoxy. If Orthodoxy really is the true Church, I have to ask you the same question I ask the protestants. Why are you so obscure? I mean, I never heard of you until I converted to Catholicism, and never encountered you until I joined CF.

    There's a lot there, but from first impressions it looks that proverbial quote mine I hear so much about.
     
  16. Montalban

    Montalban Well-Known Member

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    Excepting that it's not just quotes.

    Why not for example discuss John Chrysostom?

    He certainly praised Peter, but then used the same type of praise for others.

    He took his holy orders from Meletius who was not in communion with Rome.

    He then became a bishop under Flavian, also a person not in communion with Rome.

    Let's discuss
     
  17. Montalban

    Montalban Well-Known Member

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    I wonder who they think is the head of the Trinity? There's three persons in the Trinity and one said that you can't have many leaders, so maybe they think that two of the persons of the Trinity accept directions from the other?
     
  18. Fotina

    Fotina Regular Member

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    I don't know why it took you so long to learn of the largest Christian group second only to the RCC. The RCC popes have always known of the Orthodox since we were one church for the first thousand years until Rome finally went its own way. The Church continued on in the ancient patriarchates of Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, and Jerusalem and adding more autocephalous and autonomous churches who continue to keep the true faith to this day.

    Of course, it hasn't helped that the Orthodox have been severely persecuted by godless regimes in their own countries during the last century. Thanks be to God, since the end of those regimes, many of those churches as in Russia are now rebuilding and experiencing revival.


    Patriarchs of Russia,Constantinople,Georgia2.Russian Orthodox religious procession
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  19. Montalban

    Montalban Well-Known Member

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    It's one of the strangest arguments ever on these threads. It's saying that someone's own personal knowledge of something is the measure for the success of something.
     
  20. ivebeenshown

    ivebeenshown Expert invisible poster and thread killer

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    It appears that binding and loosing are indeed powers of the keys, but I do not see where the keys themselves were given to anyone but Peter. So while James and John (the only two individuals other than Peter that appear, by context of the passage, to be present when Jesus spoke the words in Matthew 18) may have been authorized to share in the binding and loosing power, I see no reason to believe that they were given the keys to hold. Now, some prophetic Scripture for meditation:

    Isaiah 22
    20 “In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. 21 I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the people of Judah. 22 I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 23 I will drive him like a peg into a firm place; he will become a seat of honor for the house of his father. 24 All the glory of his family will hang on him: its offspring and offshoots—all its lesser vessels, from the bowls to all the jars.
     
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