"For all have sinned..."

[66 Books]

When the LORD created the heavens and the earth, He intended it to be a perfect creation. What was created was "good" in His eyes. For all of God's work is perfect, He is the perfect God and Creator. Full of wisdom, He gave dominion of the earth to mankind, telling the first man, Adam, to "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion..over every living thing." Therefore, from the start, we can see the mighty hand of God, creating all of creation and purposing good for the human race.

However, like most of us learned from Sunday school, this did not last very long. Soon came the "Fall of Mankind" and all of creation has been groaning since that day. For the fall of man brought not only a curse upon man but also upon the earth as the Scripture says, "Cursed is the ground for your sake".

Despite the tragic fall of mankind, the picture of God's unchanging faithfulness and love was revealed. One of the first pictures of Christ and of redemption is shown when "the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them." But why should it matter to the LORD to clothe them? I believe it is for these two reasons. First, it was for their conscience's sake, they knew they were sinners and felt the heavy burden of shame and guilt. Now, it should be noted that the tunics is symbolic of Christ, the Lamb of God who is to come. Secondly, it was for God's sake, that whenever He would look unto them, He would be reminded of Christ's sacrifice on the cross for them.

Because of this great tragedy, the human race has been polluted and corrupted. The first few chapters of Romans deals with condemning every man. "Therefore you are inexcusable, O man." What Paul is referring to is the state of man, man is defiled, corrupted and full of sin. The core of our being and nature is to sin. So Paul further this point later by writing
"There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no not one."

"That every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."
Before the Living God, no one is justified by their own deeds, no one is righteous of their own works. Without understanding this, we cannot grasp the Gospel. You cannot save yourself and go to heaven by good works. It is faith in Jesus Christ and what He has done for you. "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." All, every man, has sinned, and fall very short of God's glory and standard. Yet, it was Him who went after us. To bring us back and provide a propitiation in our place so that we may be right with Him and before His eyes. We are "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." God is a righteous God, and He is right and just when He sends people to hell to pay for their sins forever and ever. Yet, in His mercy and love, He gave Christ, His begotten son, to be a propitiation for the world. He was crucified on the cross, in your place and my place and rose again and risen to the right hand of the Power. That those who would repent, of their pride and arrogance, of their gossip and slander, of their rebellion and hatred, of their lust and addictions, of their sexual immorality and fornications and inappropriate contentography. To them that decides to turn from their sin, to Christ, He will abundantly pardon.

If the Bible is true, this is no joke. If not, continue in your sins. But if it is true, the Word of God is clear in Revelation. "He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son." A blessed promise from the Lord, but "the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

You can confess Christ and not be saved and be sent to this place simply because you were deceived your whole life. The question is are you born-again? Christ did not come to make bad men good, He came to make dead men live! If there's no change to your life and you find yourself in the list above, cry out to God for mercy and live! Don't die in your sins O man! Christ offers you freedom today! Forgiveness of sin! Because He has paid it all you may live and not die! He loves you, He gave Himself up for you, His own life. But if you will not repent and turn to Him, you can not have any part with Him. You cannot confess Christ and live as the world lives. Surrender to Him, you can trust Him. He Himself loves you, the Father loves you, The Holy Spirit loves you dearly. What is that passionate lust that drives you and you know it is wrong? The things we do in secret may be hidden from men but not from God. If you hear Him, don't resist Him. I don't have any prayer for you to pray after. But that you would cry out to Jesus to save you and continue until He gives you His assurance.

 

[sportsfan]

When the LORD created the heavens and the earth, He intended it to be a perfect creation. What was created was "good" in His eyes. For all of God's work is perfect, He is the perfect God and Creator. Full of wisdom, He gave dominion of the earth to mankind, telling the first man, Adam, to "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion..over every living thing." Therefore, from the start, we can see the mighty hand of God, creating all of creation and purposing good for the human race.

However, like most of us learned from Sunday school, this did not last very long. Soon came the "Fall of Mankind" and all of creation has been groaning since that day. For the fall of man brought not only a curse upon man but also upon the earth as the Scripture says, "Cursed is the ground for your sake".

Despite the tragic fall of mankind, the picture of God's unchanging faithfulness and love was revealed. One of the first pictures of Christ and of redemption is shown when "the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them." But why should it matter to the LORD to clothe them? I believe it is for these two reasons. First, it was for their conscience's sake, they knew they were sinners and felt the heavy burden of shame and guilt. Now, it should be noted that the tunics is symbolic of Christ, the Lamb of God who is to come. Secondly, it was for God's sake, that whenever He would look unto them, He would be reminded of Christ's sacrifice on the cross for them.

Because of this great tragedy, the human race has been polluted and corrupted. The first few chapters of Romans deals with condemning every man. "Therefore you are inexcusable, O man." What Paul is referring to is the state of man, man is defiled, corrupted and full of sin. The core of our being and nature is to sin. So Paul further this point later by writing
"There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no not one."

"That every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."
Before the Living God, no one is justified by their own deeds, no one is righteous of their own works. Without understanding this, we cannot grasp the Gospel. You cannot save yourself and go to heaven by good works. It is faith in Jesus Christ and what He has done for you. "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God." All, every man, has sinned, and fall very short of God's glory and standard. Yet, it was Him who went after us. To bring us back and provide a propitiation in our place so that we may be right with Him and before His eyes. We are "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." God is a righteous God, and He is right and just when He sends people to hell to pay for their sins forever and ever. Yet, in His mercy and love, He gave Christ, His begotten son, to be a propitiation for the world. He was crucified on the cross, in your place and my place and rose again and risen to the right hand of the Power. That those who would repent, of their pride and arrogance, of their gossip and slander, of their rebellion and hatred, of their lust and addictions, of their sexual immorality and fornications and inappropriate contentography. To them that decides to turn from their sin, to Christ, He will abundantly pardon.

If the Bible is true, this is no joke. If not, continue in your sins. But if it is true, the Word of God is clear in Revelation. "He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son." A blessed promise from the Lord, but "the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

You can confess Christ and not be saved and be sent to this place simply because you were deceived your whole life. The question is are you born-again? Christ did not come to make bad men good, He came to make dead men live! If there's no change to your life and you find yourself in the list above, cry out to God for mercy and live! Don't die in your sins O man! Christ offers you freedom today! Forgiveness of sin! Because He has paid it all you may live and not die! He loves you, He gave Himself up for you, His own life. But if you will not repent and turn to Him, you can not have any part with Him. You cannot confess Christ and live as the world lives. Surrender to Him, you can trust Him. He Himself loves you, the Father loves you, The Holy Spirit loves you dearly. What is that passionate lust that drives you and you know it is wrong? The things we do in secret may be hidden from men but not from God. If you hear Him, don't resist Him. I don't have any prayer for you to pray after. But that you would cry out to Jesus to save you and continue until He gives you His assurance.

Thank You for the encouragement

 

[Blade]

Thank you. I liked what you said. I wonder about some things though. One being "You can confess Christ and not be saved and be sent to this place simply because you were deceived your whole life." First and foremost I can't see anyones heart. The books have never been open. And I think only the Father will be looking in those. So to say something as you did..how does one come to this? To think everyone, a believer that has died had confessed all there sins. Yeah I am going with no.

Now I can only see from the outside in. So as much as I can get a good IDEA of ones walk by seeing the outside. That still can mean nothing or everything. There are those and many as we know that think they will go to heaven with out being a believer in Christ. The word makes it clear as you said "the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."I can still see and hear this preacher on TV say "if your a coward God hates you". No you said NOTHING like that. The word "cowardly" caused me to remember that

For me I look at how Israel in the past handled sin. It was just covered. Never gone. So its written that Christ died for the "sin" of the world. Whats that sin? Now this LAMB that died for the sin of the world, what SIN made it past him? Again I can only speak for me. Many years ago I was reading the word and the margin said something to the effect "if your heart convicts you. You wont get anything from God". Lol.. I took that as if GOD was saying it(I was young). So I get up and tell God "I quit. My heart convicts me 27/7 (of sin)" I get up go to the door and I hear this question by Him. "What is righteousness?" I start to turn and say "ok ok righteousness is right standing with God" He asks me "how do you get righteousness?" I answered "by believing in Jesus".

Believe it or not.. its ok. I have no reason to lie. And its exactly word for word as it happen. But something right then happened. It as if I could finial see. Like a Dam broke. I cried and cried. But.. I was raised it HAD to be written. Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference"

Again for ME as I see and understand for the WORD of GOD to say "I set in heavenly places" And how I can boldly come before GOD. As I understand for that to happen. There has to be NO SIN what so ever. For it is written SIN can not will not ever enter Heaven. So where ever these places are.. its NOT on earth. To come before Him.. yeah. Heaven not here So there can be no sin in me. Yet there is. Its not this flesh coming before Him. Well that which is born of God does not sin (practice sin). For we put off the old man and put on the NEW man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Not the flesh.. something ELSE was made NEW!

As I see and believe I am 100% in right standing with Him. Not by what I did do or ever will do. Well its silly to think I am righteous by myself and works or never sinning. This flesh has never changed. Even Paul told us. What I want todo I don't. What I don't want todo I do. Its clear to me hes talk about SIN. He even said..does this mean we can sin all we want? God forbid!

So I am righteous because of what CHRIST did not me. And my simply believing in Christ makes me righteous in His sight. I can not take have ANY of that glory. It can never be some part human rest God. That lamb took away what? Hidden it? No its taken away gone. No sin made it past Christ. See I was quitting because .. man I sin and sin and I seem to can't never not sin. So HE the Father GOD shares to me how HE sees me. I see me sin then God. He sees Christ then sees me. This BODY as you very well know LOVES to sin still. So be it a tiny little LIE! That sin will NEVER get to heaven.

We know there are sins we have done we forgot to confess. This does not make it to GOD. Yet you sill got to heaven. This is lol one reason so much of my life I pray "Father forgive me for the sins I don't remember I did and hold then not to my charge". So no evil no sin will ever be in heaven. And "to endure till the end". My mom loved Jesus passed away a few years ago. How does "endure till the end" help her? How LUCK she is? All that died before.. don't have to worry about enduring till the end. I am SURE I am not saying that to the best meaning for give me.

 

[66 Books]

Thank you. I liked what you said. I wonder about some things though. One being "You can confess Christ and not be saved and be sent to this place simply because you were deceived your whole life." First and foremost I can't see anyones heart. The books have never been open. And I think only the Father will be looking in those. So to say something as you did..how does one come to this? To think everyone, a believer that has died had confessed all there sins. Yeah I am going with no.

Hello Blade, I thank you for your comment. I did just want to clarify somethings based off the Word of God and not my own judgments. Concerning people who confess Christ and are not truly save, the Lord Himself talks about this tragic manner when He says, " Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'-Matt. 7:21-23

So as you see what our Lord said, it is truly possible because they were truly never changed. The outside might have gotten "better" but their nature is the same. That is why He said 'you must be born again' to Nicodemus. I don't want you to fear for your salvation, it is not my intention. But many are being deceived into praying a quick prayer as I once was until God had mercy on me. Just because you say a quick prayer at the altar does not mean you have received His Spirit of Adoption to Sonship whereby you cry out "Abba, Father." I do not want you to doubt your salvation if you are saved, I believe the Spirit will witness to your born again spirit about your assurance. And even if you have doubts about it, press into God, He will bring you to a place where you are 100% sure.

See you in Heaven,
Lion Braveheart.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hello Blade, I thank you for your comment. I did just want to clarify somethings based off the Word of God and not my own judgments. Concerning people who confess Christ and are not truly save, the Lord Himself talks about this tragic manner when He says, " Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'-Matt. 7:21-23

The point that seems to frequently get missed is the fact that there is no mention of faith in this crowd who is appealing to the Lord about getting into the kingdom. All they had to show for their appeal is what they DID. Nothing about what they believed.

The fact that they called Him "Lord" shouldn't surprise anyone, for Jesus made it clear that the time of this encounter is at the Judgment Day in v.21. "on that Day". And Scripture is clear that "every knee shall bow". Obviously it will be "on that Day".

So everyone will call Him that, for that is what He is; Lord of lords, and King of kings.

The fact that none in this crowd ever believed in Him is clear from what He told them: "I NEVER knew you." Would or could He say that for anyone who ever had believed in Him? Of course not. Had He said "I don't know you" could include former believers, but He didn't give us the liberty of that assumption. He clearly indicated by that statement that none of them had ever believed in Him.

So we can't conclude that anyone in this crowd ever "confessed Christ" during their life. Sure, EVERYONE will acknowledge Him as Lord of lords and King of kings at the Judgment Day. But that won't save anyone.

So as you see what our Lord said, it is truly possible because they were truly never changed.

Several points to make here.

First, this religious crowd HAD changed. Just look at all the things they did. It cannot be argued that they were doing all those things from early childhood. So, at some point, they STARTED doing all those things. Good things, in fact. And that is a change.

However, WHY did they change and start doing all those things? What motivated them? For religious people, it is doing works in the hope that they will be saved by them. And this is exactly what this crowd thought.

So, your emphasis on a "change" is misguided.

Second, we must discern between 2 kinds of "change". The first change is that the believer becomes a new creature, per 2 Cor 5:17. And this change is from God the Father. The second kind of change is the believer's behavior of obedience and faithfulness, which is COMMANDED of every believer.

Now, why is this change COMMANDED? Because it is not guaranteed nor automatic.

It is a process called spiritual growth which results in spiritual maturity.

Pastors who preach that a truly saved person will DEMONSTRATE a change in behavior is misleading their congregations. The fact that the Bible COMMANDS a change in behavior of believers proves that this change may NOT occur.

If a change in behavior doesn't occur, that only demonstrates a believer that isn't growing up in their faith. The Bible calls them "baby believers" in Heb 5. Paul calls them "carnal" in 1 Cor 3.

The outside might have gotten "better" but their nature is the same. That is why He said 'you must be born again' to Nicodemus.

Again, missing the point. The "new creature" as a result of faith in Christ means the believer now has 2 natures. They retain their sinful human nature, but now have a new nature, or a RE-generated or born AGAIN spirit. It is this new nature that cannot sin.

And Paul made it quite clear that believers face the challenge of which nature to submit to, in Romans 6.

I don't want you to fear for your salvation, it is not my intention.

You may not be aware of it, but your emphasis on a changed behavior does just that. Those who have been misled by "Lordship salvation" as preached by John MacArthur and others have caused many to doubt their salvation. A sad story.

But many are being deceived into praying a quick prayer as I once was until God had mercy on me.

Well, the Bible says that God has mercy on everyone. Rom 11:32. However, I do agree with you about ANY kind of prayer for salvation. The Bible never says to pray for salvation. Paul's answer to the jailer's question of what he MUST DO to be saved was very clear: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL BE saved.

Just because you say a quick prayer at the altar does not mean you have received His Spirit of Adoption to Sonship whereby you cry out "Abba, Father." I do not want you to doubt your salvation if you are saved, I believe the Spirit will witness to your born again spirit about your assurance.

Another correction is in order here. Rom 8:16 does not say the Spirit witnesses TO our spirit. The verse says the Spirit witnesses WITH our spirit.

So the question must be asked: witnesses TO WHOM, then, if not TO our spirit.

The answer is clear in the context. The Spirit witnesses WITH our spirit TO the Father.

 

[66 Books]

The point that seems to frequently get missed is the fact that there is no mention of faith in this crowd who is appealing to the Lord about getting into the kingdom. All they had to show for their appeal is what they DID. Nothing about what they believed.

The fact that they called Him "Lord" shouldn't surprise anyone, for Jesus made it clear that the time of this encounter is at the Judgment Day in v.21. "on that Day". And Scripture is clear that "every knee shall bow". Obviously it will be "on that Day".

So everyone will call Him that, for that is what He is; Lord of lords, and King of kings.

The fact that none in this crowd ever believed in Him is clear from what He told them: "I NEVER knew you." Would or could He say that for anyone who ever had believed in Him? Of course not. Had He said "I don't know you" could include former believers, but He didn't give us the liberty of that assumption. He clearly indicated by that statement that none of them had ever believed in Him.

So we can't conclude that anyone in this crowd ever "confessed Christ" during their life. Sure, EVERYONE will acknowledge Him as Lord of lords and King of kings at the Judgment Day. But that won't save anyone.

Thank you Freegrace for your reply, even though we might disagree on doctrines of the Bible, may you be open to seeing my point of Scriptures. I hope not to reply to cause division but that others may weigh the Scriptures and judge for themselves. Many blessings.

Regarding the first point, you said there was no mention of faith in this crowd of people who come, my indication of faith is in the facts that they were doing signs and wonders and miracles. "did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?"
The Lord did not deny them this. And we know they needed faith to cat out devils for even the Lord rebukes His disciples saying, "Because of your unbelief, for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will.." when they could not cast out the demon in the boy (Matt. 17:19-20)

You also said later in your first few points that since the Lord said "I never knew you" it meant that surely He never knew these people. But first, does God not know "our sitting down and our getting up?" What does this knowing means because surely He knows everything for "all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account."
Therefore, allow me to suggest this point of view, hear it from the Father Himself when He declares in the 24th verse of the 18th chapter in Ezekiel.

"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die."
Again, did He not say in the 59th chapter of Isaiah, "But your iniquities have separated you from your God; and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear."

I know with these verse other doctrines and truths need to be displayed and I do not claim to be a Theologian and prone to making mistakes. However, kindly consider that if it is possible that the Lord blots out our iniquities and transgression for His sake, can He not blot out our life from His memory also for His sake? Both for the same reason, so He does not have to bear such burdens anymore.


To clarify your point on what I meant by change. I readily admit that I was unclear, the change I'm talking about is not a natural one such as start going to the gym or to give or this or that but a supernatural one. A change where it is the work of God. It is also the change in 2 Corinthians 5:12. It is the change in nature. Not a change in form, but in kind.

Before God saves us, we were detestable creatures. Now, what did God save us from? He saved us from ourselves. We had a nature within us bent on rebellion. He did not change our nature only. He replaces our nature. Because what is nature? It is our natural inclination to do things, and as we are sinners, all we do is sin. Therefore, He gave us His Holy Spirit, to breath upon us that we might receive again His life in us. Receiving this new life, we have to walk in it, not by our actions, or because we are striving to walk in the Spirit but in faith in Christ. In rest in Jesus and let Him do everything for us. It is a different teaching not necessary for now, It is called the Keswick Teaching, may you look at it. But again, when you look at Galatians 5 on the fruits of the Spirit, you notice a difference between the "fruits" and "works" of the flesh. I trust you will examine and do a careful search for yourself in comparison.

I thank you for your many hours in searching out doctrines and I'm positive that we have many things in common, let us not bother with doctrines and lose love in the process. I hope these might bring new thoughts and enlighten more of our minds as you have enlightened mine. Thank you for your posts, I'm glad to have you here. May God continue to guide and strengthen you and I for His glory.

God bless you,
Lion Bravehart

 

[FreeGrace2]

Thank you Freegrace for your reply, even though we might disagree on doctrines of the Bible, may you be open to seeing my point of Scriptures. I hope not to reply to cause division but that others may weigh the Scriptures and judge for themselves. Many blessings.

And blessings to you.

Regarding the first point, you said there was no mention of faith in this crowd of people who come, my indication of faith is in the facts that they were doing signs and wonders and miracles. "did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?"

This is clearly where we diverge. It is the fact that their whole basis for entering the kingdom was based on what they DID, and nothing about what they believed. And, Jesus was clear in v.23, "I NEVER knew you". He could NOT say that of anyone who HAD believed in Him.

The Lord did not deny them this. And we know they needed faith to cat out devils for even the Lord rebukes His disciples saying, "Because of your unbelief, for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will.." when they could not cast out the demon in the boy (Matt. 17:19-20)

I think this is a reach. Religious and self righteous people think that what they DO is how they will enter heaven. I agree that Jesus didn't call them liars. But you think they did what they did in the power of the Spirit?? If that were true, again, Jesus couldn't say that He NEVER knew them. Further, 2 Tim 2:13 is clear about God cannot deny Himself.

So, what are we left with? They, in their self righteousness, did what they did by the help of Satan. Just as the phony "evangelists" will "perform" miracles on stage, all the while being done in the dark spiritual realm, to trick the people into thinking that the "evangelist" is the real deal.

You also said later in your first few points that since the Lord said "I never knew you" it meant that surely He never knew these people. But first, does God not know "our sitting down and our getting up?" What does this knowing means because surely He knows everything for "all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account."

Obviously Jesus knows everything. So, please explain WHY or even HOW He could tell anyone who HAD believed in Him for salvation, and therefore WAS GIVEN eternal life, per John 10:28 (I give them eternal life and they shall never perish), that He NEVER KNEW them??

Therefore, allow me to suggest this point of view, hear it from the Father Himself when He declares in the 24th verse of the 18th chapter in Ezekiel.

"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die."
Again, did He not say in the 59th chapter of Isaiah, "But your iniquities have separated you from your God; and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear."

I know with these verse other doctrines and truths need to be displayed and I do not claim to be a Theologian and prone to making mistakes. However, kindly consider that if it is possible that the Lord blots out our iniquities and transgression for His sake, can He not blot out our life from His memory also for His sake? Both for the same reason, so He does not have to bear such burdens anymore.

No, He can NOT "blot out our life from His memory". In fact, 1 John 2:25 says that God knows everything, so blotting out from His memory anyone who ever had believed in Him is impossible.

To clarify your point on what I meant by change. I readily admit that I was unclear, the change I'm talking about is not a natural one such as start going to the gym or to give or this or that but a supernatural one. A change where it is the work of God. It is also the change in 2 Corinthians 5:12. It is the change in nature. Not a change in form, but in kind.

I addressed 2 kinds of "change". What you state here is the first kind that I addressed.

Before God saves us, we were detestable creatures. Now, what did God save us from? He saved us from ourselves. We had a nature within us bent on rebellion. He did not change our nature only. He replaces our nature. Because what is nature? It is our natural inclination to do things, and as we are sinners, all we do is sin. Therefore, He gave us His Holy Spirit, to breath upon us that we might receive again His life in us. Receiving this new life, we have to walk in it, not by our actions, or because we are striving to walk in the Spirit but in faith in Christ. In rest in Jesus and let Him do everything for us. It is a different teaching not necessary for now, It is called the Keswick Teaching, may you look at it. But again, when you look at Galatians 5 on the fruits of the Spirit, you notice a difference between the "fruits" and "works" of the flesh. I trust you will examine and do a careful search for yourself in comparison.

It seems that you think once a person is born again, they WILL automatically or guaranteed live a different kind of life. If that were true, there would be no need of any of the many warnings about sin. How do you explain that?

Also, I'm glad you mentioned Gal 5. Have you considered v.16 - So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

I hope you see the clear choice here. Either, walk by the Spirit, OR gratify the lusts of the flesh. It's one or the other.

Also, Paul gave believers 2 commands:
don't grieve the Holy Spirit - Eph 4:30
don't quench the Holy Spirit - 1 Thess 5:19

How are these commands necessary or relevant given your pov?

I thank you for your many hours in searching out doctrines and I'm positive that we have many things in common, let us not bother with doctrines and lose love in the process. I hope these might bring new thoughts and enlighten more of our minds as you have enlightened mine. Thank you for your posts, I'm glad to have you here. May God continue to guide and strengthen you and I for His glory.

God bless you,
Lion Bravehart

Yes, I have spent many hours studying the Word. I have been reading through the NT from Acts thru Revelation monthly for many many years. This gives me the opportunity to focus on specific issues/doctrines each month. One thing I have found from doing this is that there are many commands to believers to NOT sin, to be obedient, faithful, etc.

If being born again solves the problem of the sin nature, there would be no need for any of the warnings and admonitions.

So, the fact that they are there, means believers still struggle with sin.

Gal 5:17 - For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

Paul didn't write this about unbelievers. He wrote specifically to believers. The struggle is real.

Lack of evidence of growth doesn't mean death. It means what it says; no growth.

iow, immature believers, babies.

So, lack of evidence of a change in behavior reveals a lack of spiritual growth of the believer. Saved, but quite stunted.