• With the events that occured on July 13th, 2024, a reminder that posts wishing that the attempt was successful will not be tolerated. Regardless of political affiliation, at no point is any type of post wishing death on someone is allowed and will be actioned appropriately by CF Staff.

  • Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
24,510
7,931
Dallas
✟970,322.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
So there are no scriptures that say Abraham followed or was a follower of Christ.
You can just say it. There is no need to quote scriptures that do not answer the question.
Lol so you saw my point and now you’re going to pretend that you didn’t. Who was Abraham talking to? That’s all I’m asking. I answered all of your questions. Abraham was talking to God face to face. Was it God The Father or was it Jesus?
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
24,510
7,931
Dallas
✟970,322.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I believe you do realize what the truth is, but there is a reason you won't admit it.
I could say the same because you declined to answer my question who was Abraham talking to in Genesis 18? Abraham was the first Jew and he was talking to God face to face in Genesis 18. Jesus said no on had seen The Father and no one had descended from heaven except Him. So who was Abraham talking to? Obviously he was talking to Jesus who is the only One who can claim to be God who descended from heaven. So now are you going to tell me that according to the correspondence between Abraham and Jesus in Genesis 18 that Abraham was NOT a follower of Jesus? That would be a slanderous statement.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
24,510
7,931
Dallas
✟970,322.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Are you saying you believe Peter, but you don't believe Peter?
Can you clarify? Did Peter say that water baptism saves one?
Could you answer yes or no, so that I can have a clear answer from you?
Thanks.
Then answer is no Peter did NOT say that water baptism saves someone.

“Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3‬:‭21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

See, in your theology salvation is contingent on the presence of water. No water, no salvation. In my theology it’s only contingent on the gospel. Anyone can be saved anywhere at any time. Salvation isn’t a matter of religious rituals, it’s a matter of love and humbling yourself to God.

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

CoreyD

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2023
2,185
442
63
Detroit
✟48,225.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Lol so you saw my point and now you’re going to pretend that you didn’t. Who was Abraham talking to? That’s all I’m asking. I answered all of your questions. Abraham was talking to God face to face. Was it God The Father or was it Jesus?
I could say the same because you declined to answer my question who was Abraham talking to in Genesis 18? Abraham was the first Jew and he was talking to God face to face in Genesis 18. Jesus said no on had seen The Father and no one had descended from heaven except Him. So who was Abraham talking to? Obviously he was talking to Jesus who is the only One who can claim to be God who descended from heaven. So now are you going to tell me that according to the correspondence between Abraham and Jesus in Genesis 18 that Abraham was NOT a follower of Jesus? That would be a slanderous statement.
I asked a lot of questions which you did not answer, but you asked one question that do not change the answer to those question.

So, I'll answer all the questions.
The Christ, is the Messiah. The words mean the same thing - annointed one.
BNR32FAN said:
Because Christianity is the continuation of the Jewish religion. When Abraham spoke with God when He told Abraham that this time next year Sarah would have a son, that was Jesus Abraham was speaking to. The prophecies in Isaiah and Jeremiah foretold of the coming of Christ. So in a sense, they were the first Christians (followers of Christ).​

The prophets prophesied what, again? the coming of Christ. Thank you.

Why did the Jewish leaders and the Jews have to be baptized as Christians, if they were Christians?
What is a Christian - not a follower of Christ?

So when did the Jews follow the Christ?
I did not think you would say on a public forum on the internet, "before the Messiah actually came"... although you did say it indirectly.
To say it directly though, would make it impossible to adjust the meaning.

The direct answer is in 29 C.E. when the invited his first followers. Matthew 4:18-22; John 1:35-42
This explains why the Jewish leaders along with the Jews, needed to be baptized as Christians. Luke 3:15-17
15 Now while the people were in a state of expectation and they all were thinking carefully in their hearts about John, whether he himself perhaps was the [a]Christ, 16 John responded to them all, saying, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but He is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the straps of His sandals; He will baptize you [b]with the Holy Spirit and fire. 17 His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”​

The first followers of the foretold Christ - Messiah, were not the Jews that lived prior to John.
In fact, God himself said:
“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.​
Malachi 3:1
Please compare Matthew 11:10

The scriptures also make this clear, and contradicts anyone that claims the Christ was known by Abraham, and the Israelites.
John 1:25-27
25 They asked him, and said to him, “Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the [a]Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” 26 John answered them, saying, “I baptize [b]in water, but among you stands One whom you do not know. 27 It is He who comes after me, of whom I am not worthy even to untie the strap of His sandal.”​

I hope that helps you to appreciate why the question about whom Abraham spoke to, is irrelevant. Does it?
I think I covered all the questions - the relevant ones.

Judaism is not Christianity. Nor is Christianity a continuation of Judaism. Please see Matthew 23:1-37

One more thing, I'll like to share with you...
Luke 6:22
Blessed are you when the people hate you, and when they [a]exclude you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man.

They killed Stephen for this same very thing. Remember.
Acts 6:10 None of them could stand against the wisdom and the Spirit with which Stephen spoke.
Acts 7:54, 57, 58
54 When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him.
57 At this they covered their ears, cried out in a loud voice, and rushed together at him.​
58 and dragged him out of the city and began to stone him
 
Upvote 0

CoreyD

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2023
2,185
442
63
Detroit
✟48,225.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Then answer is no Peter did NOT say that water baptism saves someone.

“Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3‬:‭21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

See, in your theology salvation is contingent on the presence of water. No water, no salvation. In my theology it’s only contingent on the gospel. Anyone can be saved anywhere at any time. Salvation isn’t a matter of religious rituals, it’s a matter of love and humbling yourself to God.

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
It's not necessary to get baptized? Why did you get baptized?
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
24,510
7,931
Dallas
✟970,322.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I asked a lot of questions which you did not answer, but you asked one question that do not change the answer to those question.

So, I'll answer all the questions.
The Christ, is the Messiah. The words mean the same thing - annointed one.
BNR32FAN said:
Because Christianity is the continuation of the Jewish religion. When Abraham spoke with God when He told Abraham that this time next year Sarah would have a son, that was Jesus Abraham was speaking to. The prophecies in Isaiah and Jeremiah foretold of the coming of Christ. So in a sense, they were the first Christians (followers of Christ).​

The prophets prophesied what, again? the coming of Christ. Thank you.

Why did the Jewish leaders and the Jews have to be baptized as Christians, if they were Christians?
What is a Christian - not a follower of Christ?

So when did the Jews follow the Christ?
I did not think you would say on a public forum on the internet, "before the Messiah actually came"... although you did say it indirectly.
To say it directly though, would make it impossible to adjust the meaning.

The direct answer is in 29 C.E. when the invited his first followers. Matthew 4:18-22; John 1:35-42
This explains why the Jewish leaders along with the Jews, needed to be baptized as Christians. Luke 3:15-17
15 Now while the people were in a state of expectation and they all were thinking carefully in their hearts about John, whether he himself perhaps was the [a]Christ, 16 John responded to them all, saying, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but He is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the straps of His sandals; He will baptize you [b]with the Holy Spirit and fire. 17 His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”​

The first followers of the foretold Christ - Messiah, were not the Jews that lived prior to John.
In fact, God himself said:
“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.​
Malachi 3:1
Please compare Matthew 11:10

The scriptures also make this clear, and contradicts anyone that claims the Christ was known by Abraham, and the Israelites.
John 1:25-27
25 They asked him, and said to him, “Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the [a]Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” 26 John answered them, saying, “I baptize [b]in water, but among you stands One whom you do not know. 27 It is He who comes after me, of whom I am not worthy even to untie the strap of His sandal.”​

I hope that helps you to appreciate why the question about whom Abraham spoke to, is irrelevant. Does it?
I think I covered all the questions - the relevant ones.

Judaism is not Christianity. Nor is Christianity a continuation of Judaism. Please see Matthew 23:1-37

One more thing, I'll like to share with you...
Luke 6:22
Blessed are you when the people hate you, and when they [a]exclude you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man.

They killed Stephen for this same very thing. Remember.
Acts 6:10 None of them could stand against the wisdom and the Spirit with which Stephen spoke.
Acts 7:54, 57, 58
54 When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him.
57 At this they covered their ears, cried out in a loud voice, and rushed together at him.​
58 and dragged him out of the city and began to stone him
Wow lol you think that killing Stephen was in accordance of God’s commandments in the Old Testament? You really don’t know anything about what Jesus taught about the Pharisees do you. Every time Jesus corrected the Pharisees He quoted the scriptures, the Old Testament scriptures. He quoted the Old Testament because they weren’t following it. That was the whole purpose of correcting them by quoting it. Just because Jesus’ identity wasn’t revealed in the Old Testament doesn’t mean that His teachings weren’t in the Old Testament. Everything Jesus taught in the New Testament was written in the Old Testament. Following Christ is about following His teachings not about simply knowing who He is. Most people know who Jesus is, some even claim to be Christians, but only those who actually hear His words and act on them are His followers. According to the prophecy of Isaiah the Jews were supposed to embrace Jesus, many of them did not but some of them did. The ones who did embrace Him were following the teachings of the Old Testament. John the Baptist was a Jew, every single one of the apostles were Jews. They didn’t leave their religion they recognized the prophecies which is the ONLY reason they followed Jesus. If Jesus’ coming hadn’t been prophesied they would’ve never followed Him. Because Jesus was prophesied in the Old Testament Jesus’ coming was a JEWISH PROPHECY.

You asked why the Jews had to be baptized as Christians if they were already Christians. They don’t have to be baptized, they should be baptized because it’s an outward sign of our faith in Christ. There were numerous changes in the New Covenant. One of them was the institution of water baptism. Before John the Baptist nobody was being baptized. Baptism wasn’t revealed until the New Testament. Just because someone isn’t baptized doesn’t mean they’re not following Jesus’ teachings. There were many Jews following Jesus’ teachings BEFORE His ministry because His teachings were already in the Mosaic law. Walking around with Jesus during His ministry didn’t mean that you were a follower of Jesus. Judas traveled with Him for 3 years and was never a follower of Jesus. I feel like this whole discussion is nothing more than you trying to defend your claim that there was no division until after the apostle died and that’s why you refuse to accept the idea that Christianity is the continuation of Judaism.
 
Upvote 0

CoreyD

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2023
2,185
442
63
Detroit
✟48,225.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Wow lol you think that killing Stephen was in accordance of God’s commandments in the Old Testament? You really don’t know anything about what Jesus taught about the Pharisees do you. Every time Jesus corrected the Pharisees He quoted the scriptures, the Old Testament scriptures. He quoted the Old Testament because they weren’t following it. That was the whole purpose of correcting them by quoting it. Just because Jesus’ identity wasn’t revealed in the Old Testament doesn’t mean that His teachings weren’t in the Old Testament. Everything Jesus taught in the New Testament was written in the Old Testament. Following Christ is about following His teachings not about simply knowing who He is. Most people know who Jesus is, some even claim to be Christians, but only those who actually hear His words and act on them are His followers. According to the prophecy of Isaiah the Jews were supposed to embrace Jesus, many of them did not but some of them did. The ones who did embrace Him were following the teachings of the Old Testament. John the Baptist was a Jew, every single one of the apostles were Jews. They didn’t leave their religion they recognized the prophecies which is the ONLY reason they followed Jesus. If Jesus’ coming hadn’t been prophesied they would’ve never followed Him. Because Jesus was prophesied in the Old Testament Jesus’ coming was a JEWISH PROPHECY.
You have a strange way of interpreting what people say, in the most misrepresentative way.
Where did I say "killing Stephen was in accordance of God’s commandments"? Please quote where I said that.

You asked why the Jews had to be baptized as Christians if they were already Christians. They don’t have to be baptized, they should be baptized because it’s an outward sign of our faith in Christ. There were numerous changes in the New Covenant. One of them was the institution of water baptism. Before John the Baptist nobody was being baptized. Baptism wasn’t revealed until the New Testament. Just because someone isn’t baptized doesn’t mean they’re not following Jesus’ teachings. There were many Jews following Jesus’ teachings BEFORE His ministry because His teachings were already in the Mosaic law. Walking around with Jesus during His ministry didn’t mean that you were a follower of Jesus. Judas traveled with Him for 3 years and was never a follower of Jesus. I feel like this whole discussion is nothing more than you trying to defend your claim that there was no division until after the apostle died and that’s why you refuse to accept the idea that Christianity is the continuation of Judaism.
This is like (equivalent to in case you should misread what I said) saying the Jews did not have to offer sacrifices.
Either they had to offer sacrifices, or the did not.
Either they had to get baptized or they did not.
It's that simple. You don't need to go to University for this.

Did they have to get baptized or not?
The scriptures answer, YES.
What say you?

It's important to note, that the Jews were baptized by John, in repentance of the sins committed by their generation (the nation was guilty of sin), before the Messiah actually arrived.
If they did not, it would be like the Jew saying, "I don't need to offer sacrifices." They would not be approved by God.

Matthew 3:11
I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Acts 2:37-42
37 Now when they heard this, they were [a]pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “[b]Brothers, what are we to do?” 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far away, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” 40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on urging them, saying, “[c]Be saved from this perverse generation!” 41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand [d]souls. 42 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to [e]prayer.

As a pledge of my faith to God.
Thank you. The pledge is necessary, is it... Or is it not?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
24,510
7,931
Dallas
✟970,322.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You have a strange way of interpreting what people say, in the most misrepresentative way.
Where did I say "killing Stephen was in accordance of God’s commandments"? Please quote where I said that.


This is like (equivalent to in case you should misread what I said) saying the Jews did not have to offer sacrifices.
Either they had to offer sacrifices, or the did not.
Either they had to get baptized or they did not.
It's that simple. You don't need to go to University for this.

Did they have to get baptized or not?
The scriptures answer, YES.
What say you?

It's important to note, that the Jews were baptized by John, in repentance of the sins committed by their generation (the nation was guilty of sin), before the Messiah actually arrived.
If they did not, it would be like the Jew saying, "I don't need to offer sacrifices." They would not be approved by God.

Matthew 3:11
I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Acts 2:37-42
37 Now when they heard this, they were [a]pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “[b]Brothers, what are we to do?” 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far away, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” 40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on urging them, saying, “[c]Be saved from this perverse generation!” 41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand [d]souls. 42 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to [e]prayer.


Thank you. The pledge is necessary, is it... Or is it not?
I’ve already said that water baptism is NOT necessary for salvation. There is no verse of scripture saying that baptism is necessary for salvation.
 
Upvote 0

CoreyD

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2023
2,185
442
63
Detroit
✟48,225.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I’ve already said that water baptism is NOT necessary for salvation. There is no verse of scripture saying that baptism is necessary for salvation.
Therefore your pledge to God is not necessary for salvation. Yet you saw the need to make one.
Thank you for your sharing your views on this. I hope you have a good day. I leave you my peace.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
24,510
7,931
Dallas
✟970,322.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Therefore your pledge to God is not necessary for salvation. Yet you saw the need to make one.
Thank you for your sharing your views on this. I hope you have a good day. I leave you my peace.
A group of people dying in of thirst in the desert, one of them is a Christian and shares the gospel to the rest. Can these people be saved before they die?
 
Upvote 0

CoreyD

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2023
2,185
442
63
Detroit
✟48,225.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
A group of people dying in of thirst in the desert, one of them is a Christian and shares the gospel to the rest. Can these people be saved before they die?
Here, I asked what you meant by saved, and you never did answer me, so I do not know what you are asking me.
If you explain what you mean by saved, then I will understand the question, and be able to give an answer.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
24,510
7,931
Dallas
✟970,322.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Here, I asked what you meant by saved, and you never did answer me, so I do not know what you are asking me.
If you explain what you mean by saved, then I will understand the question, and be able to give an answer.
Nah never mind, if you’re going to pretend that you don’t know what the word saved means when it’s used in reference to people hearing the gospel then you’re not even being honest about the discussion and I have no further interest in discussing it with you.
 
Upvote 0

CoreyD

Well-Known Member
Jul 11, 2023
2,185
442
63
Detroit
✟48,225.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Nah never mind, if you’re going to pretend that you don’t know what the word saved means when it’s used in reference to people hearing the gospel then you’re not even being honest about the discussion and I have no further interest in discussing it with you.
Since I am not pretending, nor being dishonest, then it's not me who is not interested in discussion.
As before... I hope you have a good day. I leave you my peace.
 
Upvote 0