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Featured Focus of Christians???

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by ByTheSpirit, Jul 5, 2017.

  1. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Psalms 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;

    How can something that is already perfect become perfected? If something is perfect and it is changed, then it is no longer perfect. There is a very big difference between saying that Jesus summarized the Law as being God's instructions for how to love Him and our neighbor and saying that Jesus made changes to the Law. If the way to love God has changed, then it is only because God has first changed, but God is eternal and does not change, so neither does the way to act according to God's attributes change.
     
  2. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    Ok. Good point. I don't want to be confusing.

    We agree, so my wording was not clear enough.

    "Fulfilled" is more clear I think.

    He fulfilled the Law. One could say "completed" or giving a final form now that the law is written on our hearts as Good said He would do. That is fulfilled.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
  3. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    "Pleroo: to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment."
     
  4. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    He fulfilled the Law. One could say "completed" or giving a final form now that the law is written on our hearts.

    God has done as He said He would.


    "This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people."

    .
     
  5. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Psalms 119:160 All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal.

    Can something that is eternal and unchanging be completed? The location of where a law is written does not change the content of the law. In Matthew 5:17, Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law, not to abolish it, and then proceeded to fulfill is six times throughout the rest of the chapter by causing God's will as made known in the Law to be obeyed as it was always intended to be. In Galatians 6:2, it says that bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so fulfilling the Law is something anyone can do and does not complete it, but rather bearing one another's burdens is obeying the Law in a way that it is intended. Likewise, Galatians 5:14 says that loving your neighbor fulfills the entire Law, so everyone since Moses who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire Law, which means that it does not refer to something unique that Jesus did.
     
  6. ByTheSpirit

    ByTheSpirit Pray always!!

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    The Law only applies to those under the Law which that is not a Christian. Christians are not under the Law but under grace. We serve in the new way of the Spirit not the Old written code.

    Why else do you think Paul fought so vigorously against those who wanted to impose the Law and circumcision upon Gentiles?
     
  7. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    I agree that we are not under the law, but it is important to correctly identify which law we are not under. In Romans 7:21-25, Paul said that he delighted in obeying God's Law and that he served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin that held him captive and that he served with his flesh. This is a summary statement of what he said previously, so Paul was contrasting the two laws. It is the law of sin that came about to increase tresspasses (5:20), that stirs up sin to bear fruit unto death (7:5), that held us captive (7:6), that gave sin its power 7:8), that deceived him through the commandment and through killed him (7:9-11), and that caused him not to do the good that he wanted to do (7:13-20), while God's Law is not sin, but reveals what sin is (7:7), is holy, righteous, and good (7:12), is the good that Paul did not blame for bringing death to him (7:13), and is the good that Paul desired to do (7:14-20). So Paul described the law of sin as being a law where sin had dominion over him.

    Romans 6:14-15 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. Slaves to Righteousness 15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

    These verses specify that the law that we are not under when we are under grace is a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not fit Paul's description of God's Law, but perfectly fits his description of the law of sin. Furthermore, Paul said that the God's Law reveals to us what sin is, so it would not make any sense to interpret Paul as saying that we are not under God's Law and then turn around and say that being under grace doesn't mean that we are not free to do what God's Law reveals to be sin. In addition, in Psalms 119:29 David asked God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Law, so if we are under grace, then we are under God's Law. This is also consistent with Titus 2:11-14, which says that our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and trained to renounce doing what is ungodly and sinful, which is essentially what God's Law was given to instruct us how to do. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Christ gave himself to redeem us from the Law, but to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, and God's Law is again His instructions to equip us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17, Acts 21:20). The Spirit also has the role of leading us to obey God's Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27) and all of the fruits of the Spirit as in accordance with what the Law instructs while the works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are all also against the Law (Galatians 5:19-23, Exodus 34:6-7).
     
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  8. ByTheSpirit

    ByTheSpirit Pray always!!

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    I just view it this way. Jeremiah prophecied while the Old Covenant was still enforce that God would make a new covenant with Israel, not like the one they were currently under which they failed to keep. Jeremiah 31:31-32

    Paul wrote in Galatians that the Law is only a tutor until Christ came. Galatians 3:23-25

    “In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.”
    ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭8:13‬ ‭ESV‬‬
     
  9. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    We are not under the Old Covenant, but we are still under the same God, whose righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), which means that he way to act in accordance with God's righteous is likewise eternal (Psalms 119:160). The way has existed from unchangingly from the beginning, so it is dependant on God's righteousness and not dependant on any particular covenant. This means that there is a distinction between a set of instructions for how to act in accordance with God's righteousness and a covenant agreement to abide by those instructions. Anyone who wants to find out how to act in accordance with God's righteousness can look up how to do so in the Mosaic Law regardless of what covenant, if any, they are under, but as part of the New Covenant, we are still told to do what is righteous (1 John 3:10, 2 Timothy 3:16-17). God's righteousness did not change after the Mosaic Covenant was made, but rather the Mosaic Law revealed what has always been and will always be the way to do what is righteous. The New Covenant is indeed not like the Old Covenant, but the difference is not in regard to God's holiness, righteousness, goodness, or other attributes changing or the way to act in accordance with His attributes changing, but in regard to our mediator.

    The original plan was a covenant where the people would hear God's voice teach them how to walk in His ways and obey (Exodus 19:5), but upon hearing God's voice, it they got cold feet and wanted a different covenant where God would speak to Moses and they would listen to Moses as a mediator instead (Exodus 20:19). It then became necessary for Moses to write down instructions so that the people would know how to serve God and to walk in His ways in lieu of hearing God's voice direct them how to act (Deuteronomy 5:22-33). As stated in Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant is not like the Mosaic covenant in that no longer does man act as a mediator in teaching people to know God, so the New Covenant is what the Mosaic Covenant was originally intended to be.

    In regard to Galatians 3:23-25, having no more need for a tutor is not at all the same as having no more need to live by what the tutor taught you. A student does not move from 1st grade to 2nd grade by forgetting everything that they were taught in 1st grade, but rather their new teacher builds upon what they were previously taught. Likewise, a student does not move on to algebra by forgetting everything that they were taught about addition, subtraction, multiplication, division. Now that Christ has come, we have a superior teacher, but the subject is still the same, in that we are still being taught how to act in accordance with God's attributes and to reflect those attributes to the world. We also now have the guidance of the Spirit, who has the role of leading us in obedience to the Mosaic Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). So a covenant can become obsolete, but God's attributes and the way to act according to God's attributes does not become obsolete along with it.
     
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  10. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    Right, we agree in all that. I did think it useful for you to point out that other words could seem to mean other things (did you notice that above??). People often have tried to say what Paul did at the beginning of Romans chapter 10 in various ways, and also speak of how we now have the law remade into the three statements from Christ, and written on our hearts, and used various words, but we don't want to cause confusion, and perhaps just to read or quote those full verses is best. Thanks for letting me know how my earlier wording sounded though!

    When you do hear someone repeating the commonplace wording 'completed' or 'perfected' they are usually trying to talk sometimes about such as what Paul said in Romans 10, but as I think of it really the key things is the law is now been made 'complete' or 'finished' or 'fulfilled' in that it is now written on our hearts! They are not trying to imply the law was in part wrong, or some other bad meaning, but pointing to the new thing Christ has done for us, and the new way the law is now.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
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  11. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    Yes, God's revelation in His Word is so wonderful and like a great panorama that unfolds; it's all profitable and all ultimately about the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus Christ.
     
  12. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    Old Testament.....its really the WRONG word "OLD".. Gods words are never told. We tend to look at it ..in time...yet God is out side of time and HIS words are never old.
     
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  13. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    The Lord Jesus in the New Testament spoke of the 'New Testament' in His blood, in distinction to the Old.
     
  14. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    I start off my catechism students in the Gospels. Then I have them split it between the Epistles and the Torah. The Torah is important -- it's what the Church studied in the synagogues during the times of the Apostles.
     
  15. AACJ

    AACJ Please Pray

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    It seems you may not be understanding that Paul used the term "LAW" in several different ways depending on the issues he was addressing. Among such different usages, the Law could pertain to the mosaic law (carnal/physical commands and ordinances) or to the entirety of the OT.

    The Law (the whole Old Testament) has continuing relevance in this New Testament dispensation if it is used properly.

    Paul wrote: “We know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully” (1 Tim. 1:8). In other words, the Law of God (the Old Testament) has continuing relevance in this New Testament dispensation if it is used properly.

    Paul’s statement in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 supports this claim. Writing under inspiration of the Holy Spirit long after the New Covenant was inaugurated, Paul asserts that the Old Testament is still profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. This means there is a proper use of the Old Testament for Christians today.

    I have previously presented at least 9 points demonstrating this continuing relevance.

    In addition, we are not "under the law" in the sense that: 1)we are not under the condemnation of the Law that the godless are under, 2) the righteous works (and carnal ordinances) of the Law cannot provide us with the life of Christ and therefore, we should not attempt to find the Life and righteousness of Christ through our ability (personal effort) to do righteous works. Only the person of Christ can do that through faith. Through the person and work of Christ, the universal principles/truths contained in the body of OT commands can be fulfilled in us and in our lives as God has intended.

    So we are "not under the law" as pertains to condemnation and the means by which we are justified by God.

    The Law (the OT) very much "applies" to the NT generation. This even includes the Spiritual/universal truths contained in the Mosaic ordinances. (And no, I am not advocating for practicing the Mosaic ordinances).
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
  16. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    In Romans 7:21-25, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Mosaic Law and that he served it with his mind, but contrasted that with a law of sin that held him captive and that he served his flesh. This a summary of what he said previously, so Paul was contrasting God's Law with the law of sin, which means that we need to determine which of the two laws Paul was speaking about us not being under in this passage:

    Romans 6:13-19 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. Slaves to Righteousness 15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

    The major clue is that verse 14 specifies that the law that we are not under is one where sin had dominion over us, which does not at all fit with Paul's description of God's holy, righteous, and good Law, but rather it fits perfectly with his description of the law of sin that was causing him not to do the good that he wanted to do. Furthermore, Romans 3:20 says that the Mosaic Law was given to reveal what sin is, Romans 7:7 says that the Law is not sin, but that it reveals to us what sin is, and Romans 7:12 says that the Law is holy, righteous, and good, so in regard to Romans 6:13, it is the Mosaic Law that instructs us how to avoid presenting our members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness and how to present our members to God as instruments for righteousness. In Romans 6:15, it says that being under grace doesn't mean that we are permitted to sin, which again means that we are not permitted to transgress what God revealed to be sin. In Romans 6:16, we are to present ourselves to God as obedient slaves, which again involves submitting to His Law. In Romans 6:19, we are again told not present our members as slaves to impurity and to Lawlessness, but to present ourselves as slaves of righteousness leading to sanctification, and the Law is God's instructions for how to do this. So neither Romans 6:14 itself nor the surrounding verses indicate that we are not under God's Law, but just the opposite. In Psalms 119:29, David asked God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Law, so it is a fundamental misunderstand of God's grace to think that it is opposed to His Law, as though a house divided against itself could stand, but rather God is gracious to us by teaching us how to rightly live in accordance with His commands.

    Paul also said in Romans 7:14 that the Mosaic Law is spiritual and in Romans 8:7 that those who have a carnal mind refuse to submit to the Mosaic Law, so it is a mistake it is a fundamental mistake to refer to the righteous works that it instructs as being carnal. In Galatians 5:19-23, everything listed as being carnal works that are against the Spirit are also things that are against what the Mosaic Law instructs, while everything listed as fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with what the Law instructs, so it wouldn't make any sense to interpret Galatians 5:18 as referring to us as not being under the Mosaic Law if we are led by the Spirit, especially considering that the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). Rather, it is again the law of sin that Paul served with his flesh that stirs up the works of the flesh that are against the Spirit.



    The one and only way to become justified that there has been is by faith, so it has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of God's Law to think that it was ever given to provide the means of justification. According to Matthew 11:28-30 and Jeremiah 6:16-19 that Law is intended to be the good way where we will find rest for our souls, but if someone perverts the Law by trying to become justified by obeying it, then they rob it of the rest that it was intended to give. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, and obedience to it is straightforwardly about having faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live, so we are justified by faith and by the same faith we are required to be careful to live in obedience to all of God's commands.

    According to Deuteronomy 30:15-20, the Law brings life and a blessing for obedience, according to Proverbs 3:18, that Law is a tree of life for all who take hold of her, according the Matthew 19:17 Jesus said that if we want to enter life, then obey the Law, and according to Galatians 3:21, if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the Law, so can the Law bring life or not? As Jesus stated, faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, so faith has always been a key component, without which keeping the Law does not impart life.
     
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