Florida GOP lawmakers propose bill to eliminate concealed carry permit

[ThatRobGuy]

Florida GOP lawmakers propose bill to eliminate concealed carry permit

About half of the U.S. states currently have some form of a permitless carry law on the books.

www.axios.com

Florida lawmakers have put forth a bill that would allow people to carry concealed weapons without licenses

Details: HB 543, also referred to as the "constitutional carry" bill by its supporters, allows individuals to carry a concealed, legally-licensed weapon or firearm.

• Under Florida's current law, residents must undergo firearms training and clear a background check when applying for a concealed weapons permit.

The bill would not change current laws regulating the purchase of a gun.



I know these bills typically get a lot of attention. But in many cases, they're not the "win" for gun owners that they assume they are. My state of Ohio passed something very similar, and it went into effect in June, and after reading up on the details, I still opted to renew my concealed carry permit and go through the process involved with re-upping.

The impact on community safety and crime is negligible in that most of the "good guys" already had a permit anyway, and most of the "bad guys" who carry a gun were already doing that without a permit anyway, these bills are usually done for purposes of virtue signaling "we're on your side" to gun owners.

However, these constitutional carry laws often times create a lot of traps for gun owners that they're unaware of and that they unwittingly fall into.

At least with the permitting system, people are somewhat forced to educate themselves on certain laws and reciprocity agreements...for the lay gun owner, many see bills like these pass, and assume it means they can carry unrestricted and that can land people in trouble. And with many states that have constitutional carry, those still opting to get the permit have more privileges than people who are "constitutionally carrying".

 

[dogs4thewin]

This is the 26th state ( I believe to do this) Including neighboring GA and AL. I happen to live in GA where ours passed last April ( 22) I support those bills, but also support permits being an option. For one thing if you are going to have the "permit" system there ought to be no fees that come with since it is a right ( unlike driving for example) which I do not drive, but I do not think you pay for those.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

This is the 26th state ( I believe to do this) Including neighboring GA and AL. I happen to live in GA where ours passed last April ( 22) I support those bills, but also support permits being an option. For one thing if you are going to have the "permit" system there ought to be no fees that come with since it is a right ( unlike driving for example) which I do not drive, but I do not think you pay for those.

I don't necessarily have an qualms with the permitting fee, since in most cases, having the permit grants you additional privileges that a non-ccw holder wouldn't have...and it does take processing and man power to facilitate the permitting system.

Within reason of course, some of the not-so-friendly gun states impose fees and permitting charges that are cost prohibitive by design. My state is $50 bucks for a 5-year renewal. $10-15/year (give or take) is reasonable I would say.

And one thing I don't care for are states with a "may issue" permitting policy that keep the cash even though their approve:reject rate is insanely low.

Like NYC for example, they charge $400 dollars, make you pay get passport photos taken, charge you for a finger printing fee, make you fill out lengthy forms and pay to get things notarized, take a day off of work to accommodate their 11am-4pm processing hours that are only available 2 days a week, etc... only to keep the cash, and reject 70% of the permit applications based on their whims.



My main concern is that the legal limitations and extraneous aspects of people who opt to forego the permit and "constitutionally carry" aren't being well-communicated to people, and people incorrectly assume that the laws mean that non-permit holders will have all of the same carry privileges as permit holders, and in many states, that's not the case.

The example provided from months back by @RDKirk (in a thread where it was being discussed) highlights one such example:

Gun deaths were the leading killer of US children in 2020

Did someone say that? Tell them they're an idiot. And did someone else say it would it stop suicides? Another idiotic claim. You don't think teaching children properly reduces the chance of suicide? Strongly disagree.

www.christianforums.com

Permit vs. no-permit (even in gun-friendly states) can be the difference between being asked to leave and a trespassing charge if you refuse, and a felony carrying jail time.

Interactions with law enforcement is another aspect that doesn't get discussed. The permit isn't just a piece of plastic, it's an indicator that one has already gone through the background vetting process. For those who are carrying without a permit, that vetting process happens during the traffic stop. (thus turning what would normally be a 5 minute traffic stop, into an hour long ordeal). Basically, all of the background checking, etc... that would normally be done by a clerk at the sheriff's office after you submit an application, instead happens by the LEO & Dispatch while you sit there in the car and wait.

 

[dogs4thewin]

I don't necessarily have an qualms with the permitting fee, since in most cases, having the permit grants you additional privileges that a non-ccw holder wouldn't have...and it does take processing and man power to facilitate the permitting system.

Within reason of course, some of the not-so-friendly gun states impose fees and permitting charges that are cost prohibitive by design. My state is $50 bucks for a 5-year renewal. $10-15/year (give or take) is reasonable I would say.

And one thing I don't care for are states with a "may issue" permitting policy that keep the cash even though their approve:reject rate is insanely low.

Like NYC for example, they charge $400 dollars, make you pay get passport photos taken, charge you for a finger printing fee, make you fill out lengthy forms and pay to get things notarized, take a day off of work to accommodate their 11am-4pm processing hours that are only available 2 days a week, etc... only to keep the cash, and reject 70% of the permit applications based on their whims.



My main concern is that the legal limitations and extraneous aspects of people who opt to forego the permit and "constitutionally carry" aren't being well-communicated to people, and people incorrectly assume that the laws mean that non-permit holders will have all of the same carry privileges as permit holders, and in many states, that's not the case.

The example provided from months back by @RDKirk (in a thread where it was being discussed) highlights one such example:

Gun deaths were the leading killer of US children in 2020

Did someone say that? Tell them they're an idiot. And did someone else say it would it stop suicides? Another idiotic claim. You don't think teaching children properly reduces the chance of suicide? Strongly disagree.

www.christianforums.com

Permit vs. no-permit (even in gun-friendly states) can be the difference between being asked to leave and a trespassing charge if you refuse, and a felony carrying jail time.

Interactions with law enforcement is another aspect that doesn't get discussed. The permit isn't just a piece of plastic, it's an indicator that one has already gone through the background vetting process. For those who are carrying without a permit, that vetting process happens during the traffic stop. (thus turning what would normally be a 5 minute traffic stop, into an hour long ordeal). Basically, all of the background checking, etc... that would normally be done by a clerk at the sheriff's office after you submit an application, instead happens by the LEO & Dispatch while you sit there in the car and wait.

Yes, I agree that a permit is better, but as to law enforcement and even trespassing how do they know you are carrying if you are doing so CONCEALED anyway? I mean most private businesses in particular may or may not care that you are carrying, but they do not search you.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

This is the 26th state ( I believe to do this) Including neighboring GA and AL. I happen to live in GA where ours passed last April ( 22) I support those bills, but also support permits being an option. For one thing if you are going to have the "permit" system there ought to be no fees that come with since it is a right ( unlike driving for example) which I do not drive, but I do not think you pay for those.

Right or not, everything cost. Yes there should be a price. The price is no big deal. If people are willing to spend a lot for a gun.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Yes, I agree that a permit is better, but as to law enforcement and even trespassing how do they know you are carrying if you are doing so CONCEALED anyway? I mean most private businesses in particular may or may not care that you are carrying, but they do not search you.

Law Enforcement and Private businesses are two different scenarios.

Many states have a "Duty to Notify", which means even if you're concealing, you have to notify the cop that you have it (or roll the dice and hope they don't see it or have some other reason to snoop around in your car.

With regards to private businesses, yes, if one is concealing properly, in a perfect world, a private business owner wouldn't ever see that you have it. But if they do (in the summer time, I'm sure we've all had a time or two where you bend over to get something off a bottom shelf or reach up to the top shelf, and realized that your shirt has popped up above your IWB holster...most of the time nobody is around so no harm no foul...and most businesses I go into wouldn't care and don't have signage posted), that's not a gamble I'd want to take.