Flat Earth V.S Round Earth? (Also helio/geocentrism)

[Aldebaran]

And those observations prove that spinning is necessary for "gravitational pull" how?

Read what I said again:

and it can clearly be seen that the more mass an object has, the greater the gravitational pull it has.

It is mass that determines the gravity of an object. If the object rotates, then some of the gravity pull is negated because it tends to try to fling objects away from it. If the spin rate were fast enough, it would overcome the gravitational pull and fling objects off of it. Thankfully, the earth's gravity isn't overcome by its rotational rate. You could even do a little experiment yourself to demonstrate this. Take a circular magnet and allow a small metal object to stick to it. Then put the magnet on something that will spin it fast, such as a drill. If you get it spinning fast enough, the object stuck to the magnet will be flung off.

 

[Aldebaran]

It could be either. I'm undecided at this point. Still researching. Is that such a bad thing? The Bible says "Test all things and hold fast to that which is true". That's what I am doing. And my primary test is with the Bible. The Bible never mentions an Earth that spins but does indicate a sun and moon that move around the Earth (whatever shape it is). I'm going with that, while continuing to study the shape of the Earth. Rather than just accepting what I am told by secular scientists. Sue me.

I have no problem with you trying to research and come to your own conclusions, so I have nothing to sue you for. But try to be open to the answers.

 

[Aldebaran]

You bring up a taxing, yet valid argument that requires a loaded response.

While common "scientific" thought on space and the shape/form of the Earth may not be "THE delusion" itself, it definitely could be part of it in or a set up for it.

I mentioned this on my first reply on this thread. One thing can't be denied IF (key word to be fair) the Earth is a flat Geocentric disk. The big bang theory crumbles, the multi billion year old Earth and universe is officially debunked and the question of whether or not we are "alone" is basically laughable.

I said "if".

What that makes me ponder is what a lot of bible scholars have thought for a long time about the end time "strong delusion" - that being, a mass publicized Alien/UFO hoax. If the Earth is flat and Geocentric, that kind of puts a bit of a damper on that type of hoax being pulled off.

Can only speculate at this point. But the thought in and of itself makes it worth questioning the whole blooming thing

I can see where you're coming from. However, I'm not exactly of the belief that we have to believe we are alone in the universe in order to be in line with scripture. There are clearly other entities that are not of this earth mentioned in the bible. The angels are numerous and exist outside our dimension, as do the demons. They are powerful, and can travel between our realm and others. Much of the activity seen in UFOs indicates interdimensional travel.
As for the Big Bang Theory and even the theory of planetary formation, I see a lot of holes in them, as do the scientists. Whenever an interplanetary probe takes a closer look at a planet, most recently being Pluto and Jupiter, I see articles written that use the phrase, "This is going to rewrite the text books on planetary formation as the evidence we have seen does not support current theories". It does appear that there is still much to learn.

 

[Goatee]

The only thing flat about the earth is the mundane/idiotic belief that God does not exist!

 

[Aldebaran]

It points out why globe earth and outer space must be accepted first... then "aliens" (false messiahs) are possible.

The much larger universe that is accepted by 99.9% of people also makes a God of infinite power possible.

 

[Repented797]

The only thing flat about the earth is the mundane/idiotic belief that God does not exist!

You say that as if the Flat Earth theory is am atheistic theory. If you do some research (as I have been for the last month or so) you will find that with the Flat Earth theory, the big bang theory crumbles and the Bible becomes 100% irrefutable.

 

[Repented797]

I have no problem with you trying to research and come to your own conclusions, so I have nothing to sue you for. But try to be open to the answers.

The problem with the answers you bring is that it's already what I have believed most of my life up until just a month ago. So, you really aren't challenging me at all with any of it.

Humorously, when a FE believer confronted me with all of this just a month ago, my responses were exactly the same as yours.

Again, it is not an issue to divide brotherhood over (I definitely view you as a brother in Christ based on what I read from you) but it's worth exploring man. What I am discovering more and more by the day is just how consistent the theory is with Scripture.

I'm not convinced of the "shape" yet but as I have said repeatedly, I definitely am at LEAST 98% certain that the Earth is not spinning. And with that, space and satilites don't necessarily go away. It's just a different way of viewing how the stars, planets and cosmos work.

For whatever it's worth, I have been enjoying my dialogue with you.

 

[SeventyOne]

You say that as if the Flat Earth theory is am atheistic theory. If you do some research (as I have been for the last month or so) you will find that with the Flat Earth theory, the big bang theory crumbles and the Bible becomes 100% irrefutable.

And it becomes so much harder to take the picture source seriously when they are constantly lying to you.

Just yesterday morning, NASA was live-streaming an "emergency" spacewalk outside the ISS. I watched it for a bit... and then I saw an air bubble. Yup, they were in a pool, the whole thing was a fake. I have a short video clip I captured of the bubble ascending, but for some reason, I can't upload a video to the forum from my hard drive. Instead, I grabbed two shots of it and put them together.

 

[Papias]

Sorry for the delay, I just noticed this thread.

... I've noticed lately that there are a surprising number of Christians who hold to the flat earth/geocentric model. .

As JackRT pointed out in post #9, the Bibles, from Genesis to Revelation, are very clear that the earth is flat, and under a hard dome, with the sun, stars, etc inside this sky dome. Bible scholars have recognized that for a long time, and it's clear from dozens of verses (and we celebrate that flat earth every December). In fact, the Bibles are a lot more clear about a flat earth under a hard dome (standard Hebrew Cosmology) than they are about a lot of Christian doctrine, such as the doctrine of the trinity, soteriology, eschatology, etc.

Here are some of the sections of the Bibles where this is clear:

(Ibid)
Flat Earth-

Bible tells us that the earth is flat like a piece of clay stamped under a seal (Job 38:13-14), that it has edges as only a flat plane would (Job 38:13-14,.Psa 19:4), is set on a foundation, like a table (2Sm 22:16, Ps 18:15, 102:25, Pr 8:27-29, Is 48:13), has a length as only a flat plane would (Dan 4:11, Job 11:9, Job 28:24, Job 37:3, Job 38:13, Job 38:44, Jrm 16:19), that it is a circular disk (Isa 40:22), and that its entire surface can be seen from a high tree (Dan 4:10-11) heaven (Job 28:24) or mountain (Matt 4:8) or which is impossible for a sphere, but possible for a flat disk. Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, any one of these passages shows a flat earth. Taken together, they are even more clear. And many Christians in history have interpreted it as such.

Geocentrism-

The Bible describes the earth as unmovable, set on a foundation of either pillars in water (1 Sam 2:8, 1 Chr 16:30, Job 9:6, 38:4, Psa 24:1-2, 75:s3, 93:1, 96:10, 104:5, 136:6). It also tells us that, although the earth does not move, the sun and stars do move about it (Josh 10:12, Psa 19:4-6, 50:1, Ecc 1:5 (note “returns”, not perspective), Hab 3:11). And that the stars could be dropped down onto the earth like fruit falling from a tree (Rev. 6:13). Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, these verses show geocentrism. And many Christians in history have interpreted it as such.

We live in a Planetarium-
The Bible describes the sky (firmament -- literally "metal bowl made by a hammer"- Gen 1:6-8, 1:14-17) as a solid dome, like a tent (Isa 40:22, Psa 19:4, 104:2, Pr 8:27-29, Ezk 1:26), that is arched over the surface of the earth. It also has windows to let rain/snow in (Gen 7:11, 8:2, Deut 28:12, 2 Kings 7:2, Job 37:18, Mal 3:10, Rev 4:1). Ezekiel 1:22 and Job 37:18 even tell us that it's hard like bronze and sparkles like ice, that God walks on it (Job 22:14) and can be removed (Rev 6:14). Ex 24:10 suggests that it is like sapphire. Joshua 10:12 estimates how far the Sun and Moon are from Earth’s surface. The Sun was stopped to illuminate the Valley of Gibeon, and the Moon was stopped to illuminate the Valley of Aijalon, showing that one wasn’t sufficient for both valleys (too close). So some basic trigonometry shows that they are therefore at a roughly similar height as the valleys are from each other – which is around 20 miles. Similarly, the whole Star of Bethlehem story in Mt (where a star designates a single house) makes no sense if stars are millions of miles across, but makes perfect sense if the stars are little lights hanging from a dome above us. Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, these verses show a solid sky above us. And again, many Christians in history have interpreted it as such.

Here is a good explanation of this by a well known and respected Bible scholar.

I have always (and still do) believe that the Earth is indeed spherical.

Yes, I agree the Earth is spherical. This means that God talks to us at our level - and at the time that the Bibles were written, that meant talking in terms of a flat earth under a hard dome. People who insist that their Bible be read literally, then, have to reject a spherical Earth and see the earth as literally flat under a literal hard dome, as we see in post #3 and many other posts on this thread.

That's why it's hypocritical for one to support creationism and accept a spherical earth. The Bibles (read literally) much more clearly demand that the Earth is flat under a hard dome than they demand creationism.
In Christ-

Papias

 

[Repented797]

Sorry for the delay, I just noticed this thread.



As JackRT pointed out in post #9, the Bibles, from Genesis to Revelation, are very clear that the earth is flat, and under a hard dome, with the sun, stars, etc inside this sky dome. Bible scholars have recognized that for a long time, and it's clear from dozens of verses (and we celebrate that flat earth every December). In fact, the Bibles are a lot more clear about a flat earth under a hard dome (standard Hebrew Cosmology) than they are about a lot of Christian doctrine, such as the doctrine of the trinity, soteriology, eschatology, etc.

Here are some of the sections of the Bibles where this is clear:

(Ibid)
Flat Earth-

Bible tells us that the earth is flat like a piece of clay stamped under a seal (Job 38:13-14), that it has edges as only a flat plane would (Job 38:13-14,.Psa 19:4), is set on a foundation, like a table (2Sm 22:16, Ps 18:15, 102:25, Pr 8:27-29, Is 48:13), has a length as only a flat plane would (Dan 4:11, Job 11:9, Job 28:24, Job 37:3, Job 38:13, Job 38:44, Jrm 16:19), that it is a circular disk (Isa 40:22), and that its entire surface can be seen from a high tree (Dan 4:10-11) heaven (Job 28:24) or mountain (Matt 4:8) or which is impossible for a sphere, but possible for a flat disk. Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, any one of these passages shows a flat earth. Taken together, they are even more clear. And many Christians in history have interpreted it as such.

Geocentrism-

The Bible describes the earth as unmovable, set on a foundation of either pillars in water (1 Sam 2:8, 1 Chr 16:30, Job 9:6, 38:4, Psa 24:1-2, 75:s3, 93:1, 96:10, 104:5, 136:6). It also tells us that, although the earth does not move, the sun and stars do move about it (Josh 10:12, Psa 19:4-6, 50:1, Ecc 1:5 (note “returns”, not perspective), Hab 3:11). And that the stars could be dropped down onto the earth like fruit falling from a tree (Rev. 6:13). Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, these verses show geocentrism. And many Christians in history have interpreted it as such.

We live in a Planetarium-
The Bible describes the sky (firmament -- literally "metal bowl made by a hammer"- Gen 1:6-8, 1:14-17) as a solid dome, like a tent (Isa 40:22, Psa 19:4, 104:2, Pr 8:27-29, Ezk 1:26), that is arched over the surface of the earth. It also has windows to let rain/snow in (Gen 7:11, 8:2, Deut 28:12, 2 Kings 7:2, Job 37:18, Mal 3:10, Rev 4:1). Ezekiel 1:22 and Job 37:18 even tell us that it's hard like bronze and sparkles like ice, that God walks on it (Job 22:14) and can be removed (Rev 6:14). Ex 24:10 suggests that it is like sapphire. Joshua 10:12 estimates how far the Sun and Moon are from Earth’s surface. The Sun was stopped to illuminate the Valley of Gibeon, and the Moon was stopped to illuminate the Valley of Aijalon, showing that one wasn’t sufficient for both valleys (too close). So some basic trigonometry shows that they are therefore at a roughly similar height as the valleys are from each other – which is around 20 miles. Similarly, the whole Star of Bethlehem story in Mt (where a star designates a single house) makes no sense if stars are millions of miles across, but makes perfect sense if the stars are little lights hanging from a dome above us. Taken literally, as the YECs insist we do, these verses show a solid sky above us. And again, many Christians in history have interpreted it as such.

Here is a good explanation of this by a well known and respected Bible scholar.

Yes, I agree the Earth is spherical. This means that God talks to us at our level - and at the time that the Bibles were written, that meant talking in terms of a flat earth under a hard dome. People who insist that their Bible be read literally, then, have to reject a spherical Earth and see the earth as literally flat under a literal hard dome, as we see in post #3 and many other posts on this thread.

That's why it's hypocritical for one to support creationism and accept a spherical earth. The Bibles (read literally) much more clearly demand that the Earth is flat under a hard dome than they demand creationism.
In Christ-

Papias

You know what? This is what I have been waiting for since I started this journey a month ago - SCRIPTURE!

I have found plenty that points to a Geocentric Earth but have struggled to find more than just a couple of HINTS that the Earth MIGHT be flat.

Thanks for posting. I'm going to begin researching the scripture passages you have sited.

 

[Papias]

You know what? This is what I have been waiting for since I started this journey a month ago - SCRIPTURE!

I have found plenty that points to a Geocentric Earth but have struggled to find more than just a couple of HINTS that the Earth MIGHT be flat.

Thanks for posting. I'm going to begin researching the scripture passages you have sited.

Thanks! I mentioned Rev, when "a third of the stars fell to earth" - the stars are clearly being described as little lights attached to the inside of the sky dome. The description in Rev makes no sense with the modern view of the stars - each of which is much, much larger than the earth (each being a sun itself). Billions of suns "falling to earth" doesn't make sense:

Similarly, the Star of Bethlehem story assumes that stars are little lights - not giant suns much bigger than the earth. This video shows that, from the 19:30 mark to the 23:00 mark.

Another good example (also mentioned above) is the flood story itself. Go read the flood story in Genesis 7-9. It suddenly makes perfect sense! All the questions of where the water came from, or went to, etc go away when you think of the earth as flat, under a hard dome, which is itself under water (genesis 1:7).


-Papias

 

[Repented797]

Thanks! I mentioned Rev, when "a third of the stars fell to earth" - the stars are clearly being described as little lights attached to the inside of the sky dome. The description in Rev makes no sense with the modern view of the stars - each of which is much, much larger than the earth (each being a sun itself). Billions of suns "falling to earth" doesn't make sense:

Similarly, the Star of Bethlehem story assumes that stars are little lights - not giant suns much bigger than the earth. This video shows that, from the 19:30 mark to the 23:00 mark.

Another good example (also mentioned above) is the flood story itself. Go read the flood story in Genesis 7-9. It suddenly makes perfect sense! All the questions of where the water came from, or went to, etc go away when you think of the earth as flat, under a hard dome, which is itself under water (genesis 1:7).


-Papias

You know what else doesn't make sense about modern secular science's view of the stars? Any time you see an example photo (or a said to be real photo) of the Milky Way, you always see the sun sticking out larger than any of the other stars - many of which said to be bigger than the sun.

I call that a contradiction.

 

[Repented797]

Thanks! I mentioned Rev, when "a third of the stars fell to earth" - the stars are clearly being described as little lights attached to the inside of the sky dome. The description in Rev makes no sense with the modern view of the stars - each of which is much, much larger than the earth (each being a sun itself). Billions of suns "falling to earth" doesn't make sense:

Similarly, the Star of Bethlehem story assumes that stars are little lights - not giant suns much bigger than the earth. This video shows that, from the 19:30 mark to the 23:00 mark.

Another good example (also mentioned above) is the flood story itself. Go read the flood story in Genesis 7-9. It suddenly makes perfect sense! All the questions of where the water came from, or went to, etc go away when you think of the earth as flat, under a hard dome, which is itself under water (genesis 1:7).


-Papias

Better example. Look at this photo said to be the entire Milky way. BILLIONS of stars said to be as big or bigger than our sun. Yet, there is our sun right smack in the middle looking like a giant monster compared to all the others.

Nobody ever questions this?????

 

[Aldebaran]

The problem with the answers you bring is that it's already what I have believed most of my life up until just a month ago. So, you really aren't challenging me at all with any of it.

Humorously, when a FE believer confronted me with all of this just a month ago, my responses were exactly the same as yours.

I see. It sounds as if you've looked at this quite intently during the past month. I have to caution you however, that when a point of view is considered "too much", it will always have valid points. That's how we can get drawn in to believing what isn't true. I've had the same experience with different denominations that way. I went to a church to see what they believed, and suddenly found myself agreeing with so many points that I thought theirs was the right one. Then I went somewhere else that taught nearly the opposite things and found myself thinking the same thing about them. What we need to do in the end is find out the truth for ourselves from a neutral standpoint.

Again, it is not an issue to divide brotherhood over (I definitely view you as a brother in Christ based on what I read from you) but it's worth exploring man. What I am discovering more and more by the day is just how consistent the theory is with Scripture.

No division will be happening here. We're good!

I'm not convinced of the "shape" yet but as I have said repeatedly, I definitely am at LEAST 98% certain that the Earth is not spinning. And with that, space and satilites don't necessarily go away. It's just a different way of viewing how the stars, planets and cosmos work.

For whatever it's worth, I have been enjoying my dialogue with you.

Same here!

 

[Aldebaran]

And it becomes so much harder to take the picture source seriously when they are constantly lying to you.

Just yesterday morning, NASA was live-streaming an "emergency" spacewalk outside the ISS. I watched it for a bit... and then I saw an air bubble. Yup, they were in a pool, the whole thing was a fake. I have a short video clip I captured of the bubble ascending, but for some reason, I can't upload a video to the forum from my hard drive. Instead, I grabbed two shots of it and put them together.

View attachment 197535

The belief that's it's an air bubble is to assume that they must be in a pool of water. If they were indeed in a pool, there would be far more than just one air bubble. The more likely explanation would be floating debris.

 

[Papias]

Better example. Look at this photo said to be the entire Milky way. BILLIONS of stars said to be as big or bigger than our sun. Yet, there is our sun right smack in the middle looking like a giant monster compared to all the others.

You might be misunderstanding the image. First of all, it's an artists rendering, not a photo. Secondly, I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim that the sun is in the galactic center.

But yes, I agree that there is a big difference between scripture and modern views, especially when it comes to the size and nature of the stars. -Papias

 

[Repented797]

You might be misunderstanding the image. First of all, it's an artists rendering, not a photo. Secondly, I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim that the sun is in the galactic center.

But yes, I agree that there is a big difference between scripture and modern views, especially when it comes to the size and nature of the stars. -Papias

Even if the center is only a tight compact cluster of stars, a cluster that tight and bright should be easy to find. Can anyone tell me where or what time of the year I might find this cluster?

 

[Repented797]

I see. It sounds as if you've looked at this quite intently during the past month. I have to caution you however, that when a point of view is considered "too much", it will always have valid points. That's how we can get drawn in to believing what isn't true. I've had the same experience with different denominations that way. I went to a church to see what they believed, and suddenly found myself agreeing with so many points that I thought theirs was the right one. Then I went somewhere else that taught nearly the opposite things and found myself thinking the same thing about them. What we need to do in the end is find out the truth for ourselves from a neutral standpoint.



No division will be happening here. We're good!



Same here!

As much as I appreciate your note of caution, I am using scripture as the centerpiece of my exploration. Honestly, modern science's view of what we see in the sky just doesn't match scripture nearly at all.

 

[Aldebaran]

You know what? This is what I have been waiting for since I started this journey a month ago - SCRIPTURE!

I have found plenty that points to a Geocentric Earth but have struggled to find more than just a couple of HINTS that the Earth MIGHT be flat.

Thanks for posting. I'm going to begin researching the scripture passages you have sited.

When you do your research of those versus, there are some that have to make you wonder if it really should be taken literally. For example, "and that its entire surface can be seen from a high tree (Dan 4:10-11)". I haven't found a high tree or even a high skyscraper where I can see the entire surface of the earth.

Another one: "And that the stars could be dropped down onto the earth like fruit falling from a tree (Rev. 6:13)." This would indicate that the stars are very, very small. If this was true, they couldn't possibly very high in the sky. Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to see them. Either that, or airplanes that travel at 30,000 feet would run into them, or the passengers would at least be able to see them a lot closer. But as it is, they appear the same at 30,000 feet as they do on the ground. Never mind the higher altitude feats of Felix Baumgartner or the pilots of the X15 or U2, and especially companies like Blue Origin and Space X.

 

[SeventyOne]

The belief that's it's an air bubble is to assume that they must be in a pool of water. If they were indeed in a pool, there would be far more than just one air bubble. The more likely explanation would be floating debris.

It was a bubble. I know what a bubble looks like.