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"First day of the Week" is actually Sabbaton (Introduction)

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Humble Penny, Jul 26, 2021.

  1. Humble Penny

    Humble Penny Member Supporter

    United States
    There is an old proverb which says:

    "The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him."
    Proverbs 18:17

    And how many times in a dispute has the party in the wrong hastily gone to the judge to state their case with such persuasive words that the crowd and judge believe without examining the truthfulness of them? It takes a man like Daniel in the story of Susanna who was wrongly accused by two perverted elderly priests for sleeping with a young man in order to conceal their failed rape attempt on her! And it takes a man of wisdom like Solomon who showed the people which of the two prostitutes were the real mother of the living child. Exposing falsehood and revealing the truth takes a man like the Egyptian priest in the book of Jasher whose wisdom help acquit the righteous Joseph of the false rape charges brought against him by Potiphar's evil wife.

    Wisdom bestows upon those who are filled by her food the power to overcome kings and evil men and women of power, rank, and wealth even if you be poor or imprisoned. And we shall with Wisdom's aid prove why Jesus rose from the dead on the 6th Day of the Week, and how the translators wrongly translated the Greek Sabbaton "Sabbaths" to "first day of the week".
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2021
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  2. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    Really.. prove the resurrection was the sixth day.
  3. GedaliahMaegil

    GedaliahMaegil Messianic Ger Toshav - not christian

    United States
    Why is a non-Messianic being allowed to continue teaching in this section of the forums - in violation of the SOP - anyway?

  4. Humble Penny

    Humble Penny Member Supporter

    United States
    Hello sister once I recover from my illness I will prove it to you and everyone else.

    Actually when I signed up initially I chose non-denominational by accident and haven't been able to change it. I spoke with HARK! about this and explained to him that I do identify as Messianic.
  5. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    Is this directed at me? a messianic member for many years now.
  6. GedaliahMaegil

    GedaliahMaegil Messianic Ger Toshav - not christian

    United States
    No, the subject of the question was not in reference to you, but I did ask the question of you for the sake of getting a reasonable answer. I tend to limit who I converse with here nowadays ... for obvious reasons ...
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  7. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

    United States
    That's a pretty bold assertion. If was going to make such a bold assertion; I would at least have presented a little evidence to back it up front.

    Let's pray for your speedy recovery.
  8. Humble Penny

    Humble Penny Member Supporter

    United States
    Yes of course brother. I hope my work up to this point has shown that I will not make a claim without being able to show my work.

    Thank you for your well wishes as I have just recovered my strength. I believe I simply overworked myself so, I couldn't leave behind anything else to write at the time I posted this thread.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2021
  9. Humble Penny

    Humble Penny Member Supporter

    United States
    Continuing from where I left off in my bold claim...

    As you all know Christ died on Passover and fulfilled it on the 14th Day of the 1st Month which is Abib (literally "Spring"). By default this makes the Preparation Day/High Sabbath the 13th Day of the same month for the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread/Passover is a Sabbath.

    Naturally one must wrestle with the question: "Is the Lord's Supper the same as Passover?" And the answer would be a resounding "No." For the gospel writers use the Greek azymos for "unleavened [bread]" while the Greek artos "bread" from the Greek airos "raised" is used for the bread which Christ and His disciples ate, in short this is what Greeks say when they are eating leavened bread. Just search any Greek or Italian bakery or watch a celebration by the Greek Orthodox church and they always use artos to mean leavened bread:

    Dimitris' Greek Recipes
    Artos, an aromatic Greek traditional bread

    Artos - ARTOSKLASIA - Aphrate kai myrodate!! Bread for the day of Holy Mary -LIVE KITCHEN

    Historical Italian Cooking
    Moretum and Hapalos Artos - Ancient Greek Bread

    As far as the Law of Moses is concerned the Israelites may have leaven in their houses anytime before the morning of the 14th of Abib.

    When one considers the calendrical schema of Genesis 1:1-2:3 7 Days = 1 Week and vv. 14-19 inform us that because the Sun is the Greater Light the Day comes before the night, therefore the day is reckoned from morning to evening as God distinguishes between the day and the night. Therefore the 1st Day of the 1st Month begins on Wednesday. Proof of this is seen in the timing of Christ's death:

    Feast of Unleavened Bread/Passover
    14th Day of Abib (Tuesday)
    1st Day of Unleavened Bread/Passover (evening)
    Christ is buried before evening.
    Christ dies on cross at 9th Hour (i.e. 3 p.m.)
    Christ crucified at 6th Hour (i.e. 12 p.m.)
    Christ sentenced by Pilate (late morning)
    Christ stands before Herod (mid morning)
    Christ stands before Pilate (morning)

    13th of Abib (Monday)
    Christ beaten (night)
    Peter denies Christ three times (night)
    Christ before Annas and Caiaphas (night)
    Christ betrayed by Judas (night)
    Christ eats Last Supper (evening)
    Christ tells Apostles to prepare upper room (daytime)

    12th of Abib (Sunday)
    Chief priests and elders plot the death of Christ (daytime)

    8th of Abib (Wednesday)
    Christ raises Lazarus from the dead at Bethany (daytime)

    The specific timing of Christ's death may be understood by the literal translation of the Hebrew HaAReBaYiM "the evenings" or literally "between the evenings", and the exact timing of this is revealed in Jubilees 49:1-15:

    1. Remember the commandment which the Lord commanded thee concerning the passover, that thou shouldst celebrate it in its season on the fourteenth of the first month, that thou shouldst kill it before it is evening, and that they should eat it by night on the evening of the fifteenth from the time of the setting of the sun.
    2. For on this night the beginning of the festival and the beginning of the joy ye were eating the passover in Egypt, when all the powers of Mastêmâ had been let loose to slay all the first-born in the land of Egypt, from the first-born of Pharaoh to the first-born of the captive maid-servant in the mill, and to the cattle.
    3. And this is the sign which the Lord gave them: Into every house on the lintels of which they saw the blood of a lamb of the first year, into (that) house they should not enter to slay, but should pass by (it), that all those should be saved that were in the house because the sign of the blood was on its lintels.
    4. And the powers of the Lord did everything according as the Lord commanded them, and they passed by all the children of Israel, and the plague came not upon them to destroy from amongst them any soul either of cattle, or man, or dog.
    5. And the plague was very grievous in Egypt, and there was no house in Egypt where there was not one dead, and weeping and lamentation.
    6. And all Israel was eating the flesh of the paschal lamb, and drinking the wine, and was lauding, and blessing, and giving thanks to the Lord God of their fathers, and was ready to go forth from under the yoke of Egypt, and from the evil bondage.
    7. And remember thou this day all the days of thy life, and observe it from year to year all the days of thy life, once a year, on its day, according to all the law thereof, and do not adjourn (it) from day to day, or from month to month.
    8. For it is an eternal ordinance, and engraven on the heavenly tablets regarding all the children of Israel that they should observe it every year on its day once a year, throughout all their generations; and there is no limit of days, for this is ordained for ever.
    9. And the man who is free from uncleanness, and does not come to observe it on occasion of its day, so as to bring an acceptable offering before the Lord, and to eat and to drink before the Lord on the day of its festival, that man who is clean and close at hand shall be cut off: because he offered not the oblation of the Lord in its appointed season, he shall take the guilt upon himself.
    10. Let the children of Israel come and observe the passover on the day of its fixed time, on the fourteenth day of the first month, between the evenings, from the third part of the day to the third part of the night, for two portions of the day are given to the light, and a third part to the evening.
    11. This is that which the Lord commanded thee that thou shouldst observe it between the evenings.
    12. And it is not permissible to slay it during any period of the light, but during the period bordering on the evening, and let them eat it at the time of the evening, until the third part of the night, and whatever is left over of all its flesh from the third part of the night and onwards, let them burn it with fire.
    13. And they shall not cook it with water, nor shall they eat it raw, but roast on the fire: they shall eat it with diligence, its head with the inwards thereof and its feet they shall roast with fire, and not break any bone thereof; for of the children of Israel no bone shall be crushed.
    14. For this reason the Lord commanded the children of Israel to observe the passover on the day of its fixed time, and they shall not break a bone thereof; for it is a festival day, and a day commanded, and there may be no passing over from day to day, and month to month, but on the day of its festival let it be observed.
    15. And do thou command the children of Israel to observe the passover throughout their days, every year, once a year on the day of its fixed time, and it shall come for a memorial well pleasing before the Lord, and no plague shall come upon them to slay or to smite in that year in which they celebrate the passover in its season in every respect according to His command.
    This is why the Gospel writers bother to explain the exact timing of Christ's death to the very hour and day. With that out of the way there should be no doubt as to the timing of Christ's death on Passover or the Lord's Supper which Christ will not take until the Marriage Feast of the Lamb in Revelation 19:9.

    If that wasn't enough then consider how the meaning of the passages change when you alter their word order in English:

    Matthew 26:17 (Uncorrected)
    "Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, 'Where will you have us prepare for you to eat the Passover?'"
    Matthew 26:17 (Corrected)
    "The disciples came to Jesus, saying, 'Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread where will you have us prepare for you to eat the Passover?'"

    Mark 14:12 (Uncorrected)

    "And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the Passover lamb, his disciples said to him, 'Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?'"
    Mark 14:12 (Corrected)
    "And His disciples said to him, 'On the first day of Unleavened Bread (when they sacrificed the Passover lamb) Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?'"

    Luke 22:7 (Uncorrected)
    "Then came the day of Unleavened Bread, on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed."
    Luke 22:7 (Corrected)
    "The day of Unleavened Bread then drew near (engizen), on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed."

    Of course this should come to no surprise as Satan twisted the Word of God when speaking to Eve, and again when He spoke to Christ in the wilderness when he quoted from Psalms. Anyways the words of the apostles show that they truly didn't understand that Christ must die and rise on the third day, or else they wouldn't have asked such a silly question.

    Concerning the "first day of the week" the Greek reads Sabbaton with the suffix -on denoting when a thing is plural. Below is my reconstruction of how the Greek should be properly read:

    Greek Interlinear
    "Opse de Sabbaton te epiphoskouse eis mian Sabbaton[...]"

    Literal Translation
    "After then Sabbaths it being dawn
    toward an Sabbaths[...]"

    Literal Translation with Correct word order
    "Then after Sabbaths it being dawn
    toward an Sabbaths[...]"

    As you can shockingly see where "first day of the week" normally appears we read in the Greek as "Sabbaths"! Why is Sabbath plural? Upon closer inspection we see that the translators and lexicon deceptively translate the Greek mian as "first" when the true word for "first" is proto as in prototype "first type". Instead mian is from the Greek enas which is the indefinite article for "a, an". This means that the text is telling us that both Mary's appeared at the tomb with the spices between two Sabbaths! The first is observed on Passover which is also the first day for the Feast of Unleavened Bread; and the other is the 7th Day Sabbath. While the Hebrew SHaBuA is literally "week" it is not the same as SHaBBaT "Sabbath" which denotes HaSHaBuAH YoM "The Seventh Day". So while all three words share the root SHB it is very deceitful to equate SHaBBaT with SHaBuA when it is well known that the former comes from SHaVaT "cease, desist". Therefore I've been very adamant in saying that the Greek transliteration Sabbaton is not "week" but, "Sabbaths".

    What then do we make of the other instances of "first day of the week"?:

    "Sopater the Berean, son of Pyrrhus, accompanied him; and of the Thessalonians, Aristarchus and Secundus; and Gaius of Derbe, and Timothy; and the Asians, Tychicus and Trophimus. These went on ahead and were waiting for us at Troas, but we sailed away from Philippi after the days of Unleavened Bread, and in five days we came to them at Troas, where we stayed for seven days. On the first day of the week (sabbaton plural), when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the next day, and he prolonged his speech until midnight."
    Acts 20:4-7

    Here we are told that Paul was attending the Feast of Unleavened Bread and set sail on the 16th Day of the 1st Month as traveling for 1 Day or longer is not lawful on the Sabbath. From here we are told he was in a rush to set sail so he could attend Pentecost/Feast of Weeks (see Acts 20:13-16). Outside of this context the words of Luke become unintelligible.

    "Now concerning the collection for the saints: as I directed the churches of Galatia, so you also are to do. On the first day of every week (sabbatou singular), each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that there will be no collecting when I come."
    1 Corinthians 16:1-2

    Here unlike the previous passage we are talking of the 7th Day Sabbath. The only reason why the English translations read the way they do is for Sunday keeping False Churches to justify partaking of the Lord's Supper and collecting unbiblical tithes every Sunday for 52 Weeks of every year...and the crux of these false doctrines rest upon the main false teaching that Christ rose on Sunday! The Law of Moses states that the Israelites were to lay up a tithe/tenth of what they earned or produced each year and in the third year they were to bring their tithes to God.
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2021
  10. Humble Penny

    Humble Penny Member Supporter

    United States
    Anyone who can perform simple arithmetic knows that according to the Friday tradition you cannot get 3 Days and 3 Nights. Therefore one must carefully scrutinize the exact timing and have a proper understanding of biblical chronology and the calendar used to base the celebration of such an important time in history.

    The creation week reveals that Christ would die 5,500 Years from Adam and He would rise on the 6th Day of the Week. As I've stated at great length in my previous work on my blog our 7 Day Week is a sign that God ordained 7,000 Years for the world, so I will refrain from going over that again. Now the timing of Adam's creation is crucial as God made animals at the beginning of the 6th Day while Adam was made in the middle of the same day. Seeing that Adam is a type of Christ, his creation from the dust of the earth is a sign of Christ rising from the dead; at the end of the 6th Day God gave Adam dominion over the world and all the creatures in it: this is a sign of Jesus's Millenial Reign where He will rule over all the earth and the nations with a rod of iron after 6,000 Years from Adam. The timing of Adam's creation occured exactly 3 Days and 3 Nights after God called the dry land from the seas and commanded the earth to produce much fruit and green life. Adam's creation from the dust of the earth is also a sign of Christ being in the heart of the earth. This is also why Daniel went through great pains to tell us the exact timing of Christ's death which would occur 69 Weeks/483 Years from the decree of Cyrus in 5017 AM. And this I proved in my blog post Biblical Chronology: From Adam To The End Of The World (5017-5500 Anno Mundi - Babylon To Cyrus; Cyrus To Christ). For those who wish for an explicit statement of this only need to read 1 Adam and Eve 3 and Gospel of Nicodemus/Acts of Pilate 22:

    God said to Adam, "I have ordained on this earth days and years, and thou and thy seed shall dwell and walk in it, until the days and years are fulfilled; when I shall send the Word that created thee, and against which thou hast transgressed, the Word that made thee come out of the garden and that raised thee when thou wast fallen. Yea, the Word that will again save thee when the five days and a half are fulfilled." But when Adam heard these words from God, and of the great five days and a half, he did not understand the meaning of them. For Adam was thinking that there would be but five days and a half for him, to the end of the world. And Adam wept, and prayed God to explain it to him. Then God in His mercy for Adam who was made after His own image and similitude, explained to him, that these were 5,000 and 500 years; and how One would then come and save him and his seed. But God had before that made this covenant with our father, Adam, in the same terms, ere he came out of the garden, when he was by the tree whereof Eve took the fruit and gave it him to eat. In as much as when our father Adam came out of the garden, he passed by that tree, and saw how God had then changed the appearance of it into another form, and how it withered. And as Adam went to it he feared, trembled and fell down; but God in His mercy lifted him up, and then made this covenant with him. And, again, when Adam was by the gate of the garden, and saw the cherub with a sword of flashing fire in his hand, and the cherub grew angry and frowned at him, both Adam and Eve became afraid of him, and thought he meant to put them to death. So they fell on their faces, and trembled with fear. But he had pity on them, and showed them mercy; and turning from them went up to heaven, and prayed unto the Lord, and said:--"Lord, Thou didst send me to watch at the gate of the garden, with a sword of fire. "But when Thy servants, Adam and Eve, saw me, they fell on their faces, and were as dead. O my Lord, what shall we do to Thy servants?" Then God had pity on them, and showed them mercy, and sent His Angel to keep the garden. And the Word of the Lord came unto Adam and Eve, and raised them up. And the Lord said to Adam, "I told thee that at the end of five days and a half, I will send my Word and save thee. "Strengthen thy heart, therefore, and abide in the Cave of Treasures, of which I have before spoken to thee." And when Adam heard this Word from God, he was comforted with that which God had told him. For He had told him how He would save him.

    How much clearer does that need to be? Here we also read about the earliest mention of The Word of God whom John revealed to us is Christ! And what else do read?

    "After these things Pilate went to the temple of the Jews, and called together all the rulers and scribes, and doctors of the law, and went with them into a chapel of the temple. And commanding that all the gates should be shut, said to them, I have heard that ye have a certain large book in this temple; I desire you, therefore, that it may be brought before me. And when the great book, carried by four ministers of the temple, and adorned with gold and precious stones, was brought, Pilate said to them all, I adjure you by the God of your Fathers, who made and commanded this temple to be built, that ye conceal not the truth from me. Ye know all the things which are written in that book; tell me therefore now, if ye in the Scriptures have found any thing of that Jesus whom ye crucified, and at what time of the world He, ought to have come: show it me. Then having sworn Annas and Caiaphas, they commanded all the rest who were with them to go out of the chapel. And they shut the gates of the temple and of the chapel, and said to Pilate, Thou hast made us to swear, O judge, by the building of this temple, to declare to thee that which is true and right. After we had crucified Jesus, not knowing that He was the Son of God, but supposing He wrought His miracles by some magical arts, we summoned a large assembly in this temple. And when we were deliberating among one another about the miracles which Jesus had wrought, we found many witnesses of our own country, who declared that they had seen Him alive after His death, and that they heard Him discoursing with His disciples, and saw Him ascending into the height of the heavens, and entering into them; and we saw two witnesses, whose bodies Jesus raised from the dead, who told us of many strange things which Jesus did among the dead, of which we have a written account in our hands. And it is our custom annually to open this holy book before an assembly, and tosearch there for the counsel of God. And we found in the first of the seventy books, where Michael the archangel is speaking to the third son of Adam the first man, an account that after five thousand five hundred years, Christ the most beloved son of God was to come on earth, and we further considered, that perhaps He was the very God of Israel who spoke to Moses, Thou shalt make the ark of the testimony; two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof, and a cubit and a half the height thereof. By these five cubits and a half for the building of the ark of the Old Testament, we perceived and knew that in five thousand years and half (one thousand) years, Jesus Christ was to come in the ark or tabernacle of a body; and so our Scriptures testify that He is the Son of God, and the Lord and King of Israel. And because after His suffering, our chief priests were surprised at the signs which were wrought by His means, we opened that book to search all the generations down to the generation of Joseph and Mary the mother of Jesus, supposing him to be of the seed of David; and we found the account of the creation, and at what time he made the heaven and the earth, and the first man Adam, and that from thence to the flood, were two thousand seven hundred and forty-eight years. And from the flood to Abraham, nine hundred and twelve. And from Abraham to Moses, four hundred and thirty. And from Moses to David the King, five hundred and ten. And from David to the Babylonish captivity five hundred years. And from the Babylonish captivity to the incarnation of Christ, four hundred years. The sum of all which amounts to five thousand and half (a thousand.) And so it appears, that Jesus whom we crucified, is Jesus Christ the Son of God, and true Almighty God. Amen."

    The evidence is just overwhelming brothers and sisters...I am not sure what more needs to be spoken or said here regarding this subject.

    In closing the Lord's Supper is not Passover; Christ died on Tuesday on the 14th Day of Abib; Christ rose from the dead after 3 Days and 3 Nights on the 17th Day of the same month; and this timing was prophesied in the creation week as Adam was created in the middle of the 6th Day which signified that Christ would die on the cross, be buried, and rise from the dead 5,550 Years from Adam; and, if that weren't enough evidence then the apocryphal books of 1 Adam and Eve 3 and the Gospel of Nicodemus/Acts of Pilate 22 spell it out clearly. For those who would wish to know the reckoning of the 7,000 Years from Adam to the End of the World only need to read my blog starting from the very first post.
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2021
  11. Torah Keeper

    Torah Keeper Member

    United States
    HumblePenny, in Hebrew, Shabbaton is not plural for Shabbat. It is a HolyDay. Observe:
    לב שַׁבַּת שַׁבָּתוֹן הוּא לָכֶם, וְעִנִּיתֶם אֶת-נַפְשֹׁתֵיכֶם; בְּתִשְׁעָה לַחֹדֶשׁ, בָּעֶרֶב--מֵעֶרֶב עַד-עֶרֶב, תִּשְׁבְּתוּ שַׁבַּתְּכֶם. {פ} 32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of solemn rest, and ye shall afflict your souls; in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye keep your sabbath. {P}

    It is very well established by basically anyone ever, except you, that Yeshua rose on the first day of the week.

    You basically butchered the Greek into nonsense.

    Humble Penny wrote:
    "Therefore the 1st Day of the 1st Month begins on Wednesday."

    I assume you follow an Enochian, Essene, or a similar erroneous calendar? The new year can begin any day of the week. Are you a lunar Sabbath keeper?

    Why are you quoting from a book that contradicts the Bible? And the world didn't end in 1500 AD, as you seem to suggest.

    It seems you are caught up in false doctrine.
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2021
  12. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    Acts 20: 6 And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days. 7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

    If it is seven days of unleavened bread, five days to Troas, and seven days staying there, is there anything special about this "first day of the week" or as it says in the original ‘mia ton sabbaton'... which literally translated "first of Sabbaths"..
  13. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    The Feast of Unleavened Bread (Hag HaMatzah) is a high sabbath day. A high sabbath in Hebrew is called a shabbaton. During Passover, there is an extra sabbath besides the weekly sabbath. These sabbaths are called high sabbaths. The high sabbath of Unleavened Bread can be seen in John 19:31.

    You might be surprised but sabbaton is used in more places that in just this one instance.

    Matthew 12:1-2
    Sabbath Questions
    1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat. 2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, "Look, Your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath."

    Matthew 12:5
    5 "Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent ?

    Matthew 12:8
    Lord of the Sabbath
    8 "For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

    Matthew 12:10-12
    10 And a man was there whose hand was withered. And they questioned Jesus, asking, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath ?"-so that they might accuse Him. 11 And He said to them, "What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 "How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep ! So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

    Matthew 24:20
    20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

    Matthew 28:1
    Jesus Is Risen!
    1 Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave.

    Actually I just presented the ones in Matthew but there is more.

    Matthew 9
    Mark 11
    Luke 19
    John 11
    Acts 10
    1 Corinthians 1
    Colossians 1

    Sabbaton's Definition
    the seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work
    the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week
    a single sabbath, sabbath day
    seven days, a week
  14. Humble Penny

    Humble Penny Member Supporter

    United States
    This post of yours is very deceitful as I never quoted from the Hebrew old testament, but from the Greek new Testament passages which i already cited in this thread. Anyways I gave my reasons for my conclusions already and will not repost them. All you have to do is identify the time and place the Passover occured, and if you did your numbers correctly but the text says otherwise...then either your calculations are wrong or there is an error in the text: my work is showing the latter to be the case.

    As for the calendar...all you have to do is read Genesis 1:14-19 and you'll understand that you cannot begin the calendar year on any day of the week except the 4th Day (e.g. Wednesday). Also the story of Noah proves that a 364 Day Solar calendar was used from the very beginning...for the Flood lasted exactly 1 Year 10 Days or 370 Days. as the Flood began on the 17th Day of the 2nd Month while it ended on the 27th Day of the same month the following year. The prophecy of Daniel 9 also shows that the ancient Hebrews were still using a solar calendar of 360 Days with 4 Intercalary/Seasonal Days...anyone who can perform basic arithmetic and possesses an elementary understanding of astronomy knows that you can never get 1,260 Days from the Moon as it is always 10 Days behind the Sun and stars each year.

    Otherwise I am surprised that people still believe the false tradition that the year in the Bible begins in the fall when God commanded Moses that it begins in the 1st Month of Abib which is the Hebrew word for "spring".
  15. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

    United States
    (CLV) Ac 20:7
    Now on one of the sabbaths, at our having gathered to break bread, Paul argued with them, being about to be off on the morrow. Besides, he prolonged the word unto midnight.

    One = μια mia

    Protos means first

    Of the = των tOn

    Sabbaths = σαββατων sabbatOn

    Sabbaton plural, not day singular. The word day does not even exist in this verse.
  16. Torah Keeper

    Torah Keeper Member

    United States
    Well, I thought your argument was based on the assumption Sabbaton is the Greek transliteration of Shabbaton, which it isn't, so let me address that. I am not trying to deceive anyone. Sabbaton does not mean "Sabbaths" in Greek. I think visionary posted a decent explaination of it.

    I don't think the New Year begins in Fall. I keep it in Spring.

    According to Gen 1, the calendar year began on a Sunday. Are you part of that new movement that thinks the Feasts always land on the same day of the week?

    No, the story of Noah does not prove a 364 day calendar. You are making this up or getting it from some unBiblical source. If anything, the flood suggests a 360 day calendar. But certain events, such as the flood, Joshua's long day, Hezekiah's reversed time, and the literal fulfillment of days being shortened may contribute to our modern 365.2422 solar year. Shorter days=more days per year. And of course you can't ignore the lunar year, either. If you think every Biblical year has 364 days it is because you are trying to make it divisible by 7. Nice. But you completely ignore the Moon. It is made for Moedim. Gen 1 tells us the Moon is made for Moedim. Don't ignore it.

    Daniel 9 is only assumed by you to prove a 360 day "prophetic year". Whatever that means. It is a way to make your interpretation fit, when it clearly does not fit.
  17. Humble Penny

    Humble Penny Member Supporter

    United States
    Do you actually read things carefully before casually spouting the first thought that comes off the top of your head?

    Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
    Sabbath day
    Of Hebrew origin (shabbath); the Sabbath (i.e. Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension, a se'nnight, i.e. The interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications -- sabbath (day), week.

    see HEBREW shabbath

    Here's a link to an interlinear translation where your opinion is shown to be wrong:
    Greek Interlinear Translation
    Matthew 28:1 Interlinear: And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

    And here's another showing how ancient Greek nouns are formed:
    Ancient Greek Nouns
    Ancient Greek nouns - Wikipedia

    You're confusing the first day of the week with the first day of the year...the first day of the year is a calendar year which cannot start without the luminaries...the Sun, Moon and stars didn't exist until the 4th Day (e.g. Wednesday) therfore the calendar year didn't begin on Day 1 (e.g. Sunday).

    Do you just blunder through the Bible???

    Start of Flood
    Noah 600 Years Old
    17th Day 2nd Month

    End of Flood
    Noah 601 Years Old
    27th Day 2nd Month

    Hmmm...let's see...

    600 Years + 1 Year = 601 Years
    1 Year elapsed

    ...and the Flood ended 10 Days later than it began the previous year so what does that mean??? Oh I know!

    1 Year + 10 Days = 1 Year 10 Days

    ...wait...so that means if I keep counting 30 Days from the 17th Day of the 2nd Month for 12 Months...

    30 Days × 12 Months = 360 Days
    360 Days + 10 Days = 370 Days

    ...man, who knew what you could learn from using your brain and common sense??? No need for magic here...

    52 Weeks = 1 Year
    7 Days = 1 Week


    52 Weeks × 7 Days = 364 Days

    ...wow...did this require a ton of brain power??? Nope, just common sense and a plain reading of Scripture. So where do those 4 Days come from? Using common sense again...

    4 Seasons = 1 Year
    52 Weeks ÷ 4 Seasons = 13 Weeks per Season

    This means that you intercalate 1 Day in between the end of each each season...and at the end of the year you reckon the 4 Intercalary/Seasonal Days...

    360 Days + 4 Intercalary Days = 364 Days

    Also common sense again would dictate that because the Gregorian Calendar did not exist until 1582 that it is of recent invention and is unreliable; in like fashion the Julian Calendar instituted around 44 BC is also unreliable; and Julius Caesar had enough sense to keep on that you couldn't rely on the Moon to accurately track the year or else the Roman Lunar calendar should not have fallen out of step with the four seasons...and this error of the Lunar calendar is observed in all lunar calendars which means that the only reliable calendar is a solar one!

    And my math has shown which solar calendar is accurate and supported by the Bible. For if the year we're 365 Days or 365 ¼ Days than we should not have to periodically adjust the calendars to keep in line with the seasons...the seasons have been coming and going just fine since God instituted them...this means that the only calendar which does not shift ever is a 364 Day Solar Calendar.

    No, but your view would imply that we have a weak God who somehow couldn't stop a Flood from interfering with His perfect timekeeping in the heavens. I don't expect those who don't use common sense to see how erroneous such a silly stamentent is...for how is that the number of days in a year could change without the Bible indicating such a change...no it's because of stupid belief that God made a round earth when the first mention of earth in Genesis doesn't even indicate the shape of the earth...our modern view of the shape of the earth doesn't come from the Bible but, from vain philosophers who never left the earth nor traversed the whole earth for themselves...but I guess for people who don't use their brains will be easily duped into believing you can accurately measure distance by looking without performing a single physical measurement...but I digress...as for Hezekiah's sundial...this is an erroneous view as well for time was counted just fine with no indication from Scripture for time adjustment of the year, nor was this the case for Joshua's long day as the people were still able to track that the Sun and Moon stood still for a whole day...and note carefully that the Sun and Moon were commanded to stop moving, not the earth...sigh...what will we ever do if we don't use the brains God gave us to think properly???

    Do you like to not use your brain?

    What does time, times and half a time mean?

    Daniel's 70 Weeks cannot be a week of days as the 2nd Temple and Jerusalem were not built in 490 Days or 1 Year 4 Months 10 Days. This would mean a week of years is meant...

    Daniel also mentions 1,260 Days and that the Anti-Christ would break his covenant in the middle of the 70th Week...

    7 Years ÷ 2 = 3.5 Years or 3 Years 6 Months
    1,260 Days ÷ 3.5 Years = 360 Days
    360 Days ÷ 12 Months = 30 Days
    12 Months × 3.5 Years = 42 Months
    42 Months × 30 Days = 1,260 Days

    Looks like common sense and basic arithmetic saved the day yet again...don't know about you but I love that God gave me a brain to use...

    What does this all show in the end??? God made everything perfect in the beginning but, we keep messing it up when we think we know better and lean on our own understanding...thankfully God put the luminaries physically out of our reach so we couldn't mess them up! And thank God that just as we are able to move the hands on a clock back and forth to adjust the time to be correct: God placed back the luminaries in their places after He caused the Sun to move as an answer to Hezekiah's request for a sign. And thank God He didn't allow a Flood to alter His timekeeping device...that's really funny to hear people assert such nonsense without providing any proof as to how water would affect the circuits of the luminaries which are in heaven...if such an idiotic theory were true on a worldwide scale then we should expect time to be affected with minor floods, but that is not observed and is therefore false.
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2021
  18. Torah Keeper

    Torah Keeper Member

    United States
    First of all, quit with the asinine and arrogant comments. It is immature to resort to "Me smart you stupid" type of talk. My IQ is 145.

    You completely ignore the moon. Read Gen 1 in Hebrew and decide for yourself if the moon is made for Moedim or not.

    Then you do some math and find out the flood seems to have lasted 370 days. One year and 10 days. So if anything, that only proves the original year may have had 360 days. You are pulling these extra 4 days out of your own head to make a nice 364 day year. But wait, the solar year is 365.2422 days. How do you account for the discrepancy? You don't.

    You have a 100% solar calendar. This is not Biblical. The months are lunations. Not arbitrary divisions of the solar year.

    I am well aware of interpretations of Daniel that do not force your 364 day year. Or is it 360 days? Make up your mind.

    Do you really believe a 364 day calendar never shifts? You are losing 1.2422 days a year. This will cause the Feasts to land on any day of the year.

    The Feasts are clearly tied to the harvest seasons. Please have some respect for other people's opinions on Scriptural topics, especially when it is not a salvation issue.
  19. Humble Penny

    Humble Penny Member Supporter

    United States
    Your IQ is 145 but you can't compute that basic arithmetic shows...

    52 Weeks × 7 Days = 364 Days

    Anyways my math was clear and to the point...not my problem you want to hold onto falsehood...and really I don't really care to respect opinions which are clearly false and have been proven to be so. Saying such idiotic things like "this isn't a salvation issue" is flat out wrong because the Law of Moses states that"

    "Thou shalt not bear false witness."

    While keeping the Law won't save you: Jesus says that no liars will get into heaven.

    The moon is nowhere in the Bible commanded to be observed. And because the moon does not keep the year with regularity it cannot be trusted to keep the feasts with regularity. By default only the Sun and stars can do that. And as I already made clear before...from a historical perspective our modern solar calendars are unreliable because they need periodical adjustment and are of late invention...God's Calendar needs no such stupid interference by His creations which can't get a single calendar straight...use your brain and do the math...

    Gregorian Calendar
    2021 AD -1582 AD = 439 Years Old

    Julian Calendar
    2021 AD - 2,065 Years = -44 BC

    God's Calendar
    0 AM + 5977 Years = 5977 AM

    Of all the calendars only God's is trustworthy and has existed from the beginning of time and creation to our present day. It is stupid and anachronistic to say that any of our man-made calendars are the ones God used and established when the men who created them weren't even alive at that time. You dont get 52 Weeks from following the moon but the Sun.
  20. Torah Keeper

    Torah Keeper Member

    United States
    יד וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, יְהִי מְאֹרֹת בִּרְקִיעַ הַשָּׁמַיִם, לְהַבְדִּיל, בֵּין הַיּוֹם וּבֵין הַלָּיְלָה; וְהָיוּ לְאֹתֹת וּלְמוֹעֲדִים, וּלְיָמִים וְשָׁנִים. 14 And God said: 'Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years;
    טו וְהָיוּ לִמְאוֹרֹת בִּרְקִיעַ הַשָּׁמַיִם, לְהָאִיר עַל-הָאָרֶץ; וַיְהִי-כֵן. 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth.' And it was so.
    טז וַיַּעַשׂ אֱלֹהִים, אֶת-שְׁנֵי הַמְּאֹרֹת הַגְּדֹלִים: אֶת-הַמָּאוֹר הַגָּדֹל, לְמֶמְשֶׁלֶת הַיּוֹם, וְאֶת-הַמָּאוֹר הַקָּטֹן לְמֶמְשֶׁלֶת הַלַּיְלָה, וְאֵת הַכּוֹכָבִים. 16 And God made the two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; and the stars.

    The moon is part of the signs, seasons(Moedim), days, and years.(Gen 1:14). Moedim is the Hebrew word for Holy Days, or Feasts.

    "52 Weeks × 7 Days = 364 Days"

    Newsflash! The solar year is 365.2422 days! Not 364 days!

    "Saying such idiotic things like "this isn't a salvation issue" is flat out wrong..."

    And now you insist this is a salvation issue? You are on a dangerous path if you start judging people like this.

    And why make a strawman and attack it with the Gregorian and Julian calendars? Those have nothing to do with the Biblical calendar.

    Did you read any of the evidence I provided in my previous post? Or just resort to name calling and strawman attacks?