Finney anyone?

[JJB]

I do recall several people in here expressing an interest in reading about Finney. I don't recall if yer fer or agin' him, but I did run across this today:

http://www.tiu.edu/files/divinity/trinityjournal/smith.pdf

 

[calmcoolandelected]

I do recall several people in here expressing an interest in reading about Finney. I don't recall if yer fer or agin' him, but I did run across this today:

http://www.tiu.edu/files/divinity/trinityjournal/smith.pdf

Thanks for the link, I'll read more after I get some banana bread in the oven!

CC&E

 

[bradfordl]

Read quite a bit of Finney way back in the Keith Green (remember him?) days. 25+ yrs ago. From what I recall, his was the most convoluted excersize in mental gymnastics I ever read. Extreme legalism, extreme arminianism, denies the atonement, etc., et.al.

For years I wanted to find where he was buried so I could dig him up and burn that heretic at the stake for the misery his spewings put my mind through. I've mellowed with age .... would be satisfied with just burning all his books and sermons.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Read quite a bit of Finney way back in the Keith Green (remember him?) days. 25+ yrs ago. From what I recall, his was the most convoluted excersize in mental gymnastics I ever read. Extreme legalism, extreme arminianism, denies the atonement, etc., et.al.

For years I wanted to find where he was buried so I could dig him up and burn that heretic at the stake for the misery his spewings put my mind through. I've mellowed with age .... would be satisfied with just burning all his books and sermons.

There is a good possibility that Finney is doing some burning already.

Sad thing is, Finney has influenced modern American churchianity into it's present form of pelagianism, which is why we need Reformation here in American, then genuine revival can take place.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I do recall several people in here expressing an interest in reading about Finney. I don't recall if yer fer or agin' him, but I did run across this today:

http://www.tiu.edu/files/divinity/trinityjournal/smith.pdf

Finney was a full blown pelagian, who denied the substitutionary Atonement, and preached a works salvation through keeping the law, yet he is held up as one of the greatest preachers in American history by many modern Baptists, such as Billy Sunday and Billy Graham.

An interesting historic note is that in the aftermath of the path of destruction Finney laid across the Ohio Valley and Upstate New York, leaving many shipwrecked, in came 3 cults of today to fill the void Finney left behind: Mormonism, Christian Science and Jehovah's Witness, who all had their beginnings in the wasteland Finney made.

 

[Iosias]

Wasn't finney a pelagian?

 

[bradfordl]

yet he is held up as one of the greatest preachers in American history by many modern Baptists, such as Billy Sunday and Billy Graham.

Yep. Nearly fell over when I read where Jerry Falwell had Finney's portrait on a wall in his office dedicated to the "heroes of the faith". What a sad commentary. Finney was an ordained Presbyterian minister, but I read his comment that when taking the vows of ordination he didn't really understand the doctrines he was affirming. What integrity!

An interesting historic note is that in the aftermath of the path of destruction Finney laid across the Ohio Valley and Upstate New York, leaving many shipwrecked, in came 3 cults of today to fill the void Finney left behind: Mormonism, Christian Science and Jehovah's Witness, who all had their beginnings in the wasteland Finney made.

Absolutely true. He and Miller have had as strong a detrimental influence on American churches as anyone else in the last 200 years.

 

[Erinwilcox]

I don't recall the exact name of the series, but there is a "Heroes of the Faith" series that includes Spurgeon, Finney, etc. :shudder: just to name them in the same sentence feels like a crime.

Interested in where alter calls came from? Yeah, you guessed it.

 

[edie19]

I don't recall the exact name of the series, but there is a "Heroes of the Faith" series that includes Spurgeon, Finney, etc. :shudder: just to name them in the same sentence feels like a crime..

That's just wrong

 

[edie19]

In Finney's defense (and since this has been the topic of another thread in SR) - he was a staunch abolitionist. He was president of Oberlin College - which (along with the community of Oberlin) had an abolitionist statement in their charter and was the first college to admit blacks.

edie

 

[lmnop9876]

There is a good possibility that Finney is doing some burning already.

that's not up to any human to judge. undoubtedly he did much harm on the american 'evangelical' scene, however, his christianity (or lack thereof) is not up to us to judge.
i would also agree with the person that said that he, to a large degree, introduced pelagianism as widespread in the american 'church.' i was reading some of his sermons before, saying that we are able to convert ourselves, but unwilling, therefore the Spirit of God is needed. imho, that is heresy

 

[calmcoolandelected]

Thanks for the link, I'll read more after I get some banana bread in the oven!

CC&E

I'm about half-way through it!

CC&E-munching on banana bread and reading

 

[bradfordl]

however, his christianity (or lack thereof) is not up to us to judge.

i was reading some of his sermons before, saying that we are able to convert ourselves, but unwilling, therefore the Spirit of God is needed. imho, that is heresy

Can a heretic be a Christian? or a Christian be a heretic?

By their fruits we are to know them, and Finney's fruit has been a long and horrible assault on the truth. What he preached was certainly not Christianity, but rather a disgusting adulteration and mockery of it. I think it's safe to assume he not of the elect.... never heard of any repentance or recantation of his false doctrine.

 

[calmcoolandelected]

I'm about half-way through it!

CC&E-munching on banana bread and reading

I've made it to about page 20 or so, where they talk about prevenient grace, Finney's version, etc. and it left me a tad confused so I started a thread. I'm hoping it clarifies it for me. I had seen the term prevenient grace before and thought that I knew what it meant, but now seeing it contrasted with Finney's view I just want to be sure I understand correctly.



CC&E

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

There is a good possibility that Finney is doing some burning already.

that's not up to any human to judge. undoubtedly he did much harm on the american 'evangelical' scene, however, his christianity (or lack thereof) is not up to us to judge.
i would also agree with the person that said that he, to a large degree, introduced pelagianism as widespread in the american 'church.' i was reading some of his sermons before, saying that we are able to convert ourselves, but unwilling, therefore the Spirit of God is needed. imho, that is heresy

I know that is a popular sentiment in many circles today, but it simply does not match with Scripture.

First, let's look at Matthew 7:6;

6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."

Jesus presupposes that a judgment be made in that command, of who "dogs" and "swine" are, or else the command is nonsense.

John in his first Epistle also makes the same presupposition of making a judgment of whom are genuinely of God, especially among those who come preaching and teaching, which in this case were the early Gnostics who had infiltrated the Church.

1 John 2;
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[c] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

John plainly states that there were "antichrists" among them, and they were made "manifest" or known by their actions and teachings.

In this instance, how does John say they are made "manifest" or known?

1 John 2;
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Doesn't get any plainer than that.

But John gets even more emphatic;

1 John 2;
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you.

John presupposes a judgment made as to who deceivers are, after saying they are "antichrists".

So, we have to ask ourselves, are "antichrists" and "deceivers" Christian?

John goes on further to warn of being deceived, and how to spot deceivers;

1 John 3;
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

John teaches we are to "test the spirits", thereby making a judgment;
1 John 4

1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

If we are not to judge who are false prophets then that command is nonsense.

And even stronger command to make those judgments follows in 2 John;

7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we[b] do not lose those things we worked for, but that we[c] may receive a full reward.
9 Whoever transgresses[d] and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

We are to judge who are deceivers and not give them a place in the Church through which to spread their deceptions.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I don't recall the exact name of the series, but there is a "Heroes of the Faith" series that includes Spurgeon, Finney, etc. :shudder: just to name them in the same sentence feels like a crime.

Interested in where alter calls came from? Yeah, you guessed it.

It is blasphemy to mention Finney and Spurgeon in the same veign.

Finney was a trial lawyer who knew how to work people up into a frenzy with rhetoric, and that he did well in his fiery sermons before an altar call, but like the seed that had no root, most quickly died off.

Enter Stage Right: Joseph Smith and Mormonism, Miller and the Millerites, Mary Baker Eddy and Christian Science and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

The devil found a good servant in all of them, including Finney, who plowed the soil for the other cults to be planted in.

 

[lmnop9876]

I know that is a popular sentiment in many circles today, but it simply does not match with Scripture.

First, let's look at Matthew 7:6;

6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."

Jesus presupposes that a judgment be made in that command, of who "dogs" and "swine" are, or else the command is nonsense.

John in his first Epistle also makes the same presupposition of making a judgment of whom are genuinely of God, especially among those who come preaching and teaching, which in this case were the early Gnostics who had infiltrated the Church.

1 John 2;
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[c] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

John plainly states that there were "antichrists" among them, and they were made "manifest" or known by their actions and teachings.

In this instance, how does John say they are made "manifest" or known?

1 John 2;
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Doesn't get any plainer than that.

But John gets even more emphatic;

1 John 2;
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you.

John presupposes a judgment made as to who deceivers are, after saying they are "antichrists".

So, we have to ask ourselves, are "antichrists" and "deceivers" Christian?

John goes on further to warn of being deceived, and how to spot deceivers;

1 John 3;
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

John teaches we are to "test the spirits", thereby making a judgment;
1 John 4

1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

If we are not to judge who are false prophets then that command is nonsense.

And even stronger command to make those judgments follows in 2 John;

7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we[b] do not lose those things we worked for, but that we[c] may receive a full reward.
9 Whoever transgresses[d] and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

We are to judge who are deceivers and not give them a place in the Church through which to spread their deceptions.

long post, but i get the gist of it, and agree.
however, my point is that we should not judge whether any person is in hell or not, because we don't know if they repented and turned to God on their death-bed. unless we know that someone denied Christ with their dying breath, then their Christianity is not up to us to judge. i'm not saying that we shouldn't discern heretics from the orthodox, Scripture says that pretty clear, and that's the purpose of the Creeds and Confessions of the Church, but we shouldn't judge the eternal salvation of any person, no matter how wicked or heretical they've been. they may turn at the eleventh hour like the thief on the cross, "Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom." "today thou shalt be with me in Paradise."

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

long post, but i get the gist of it, and agree.
however, my point is that we should not judge whether any person is in hell or not, because we don't know if they repented and turned to God on their death-bed. unless we know that someone denied Christ with their dying breath, then their Christianity is not up to us to judge. i'm not saying that we shouldn't discern heretics from the orthodox, Scripture says that pretty clear, and that's the purpose of the Creeds and Confessions of the Church, but we shouldn't judge the eternal salvation of any person, no matter how wicked or heretical they've been. they may turn at the eleventh hour like the thief on the cross, "Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom." "today thou shalt be with me in Paradise."

I'm afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree. Scripture is very plain that we are to judge, and to judge whether some who claim to be "Christian", specifically those who preach and teach, as to whether they are Christian or not.

Also, if you paid attention to my original post, I did not say emphatically that Finney was in hell.

Read it carefully, very carefully, for I said, "There is a good possibility....", so I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Aside from that, we can say with a high degree of surety, that a false teacher and false prophet such as Finney, who was staunchly pelagian and never showed any signs of a contrite heart and repentence of his being a servant of Satan, and was filled with pride and preached his false gospel his entire life, had been turned over to a reprobate mind.

Believe as you wish, but Scripture is clear that there are those we can identify as falling into this category stated by Paul;

Philippians 3:18-20
18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.



And Scripture is clear that we will know who they are.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

long post, but i get the gist of it, and agree.
however, my point is that we should not judge whether any person is in hell or not, because we don't know if they repented and turned to God on their death-bed. unless we know that someone denied Christ with their dying breath, then their Christianity is not up to us to judge.

I'd like to know how you came to that conclusion.

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

however, my point is that we should not judge whether any person is in hell or not, because we don't know if they repented and turned to God on their death-bed. unless we know that someone denied Christ with their dying breath, then their Christianity is not up to us to judge.

1 John 2;
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you.

John presupposes a judgment made as to who deceivers are, after saying they are "antichrists".

So, we have to ask ourselves, are "antichrists" and "deceivers" Christian?.

For one thing, no one is judging, as to rendering the final judgment of one's eternal state, as in handing down the decision to give to the bailiff for execution.

However, Scripture has clearly and plainly taught us to spot those who are enemies of God, and what their final estate will be, which we agree with God on.

Can you answer this:

So, we have to ask ourselves, are "antichrists" and "deceivers" Christian?