Fine tuning, a new approach

[Oncedeceived]

I love the crazy way you say things with certainty, it's as if you are convinced that you know what you are talking about.

Provide some scientific documentation that the laws of nature existed prior to the universe existing.

 

[Oncedeceived]

What sense would Coulomb's Law have made before there was such a thing as an electric charge; or what sense would Einstein's Field Equation have made before there was mass or energy?

Exactly.

 

[46AND2]

Provide some scientific documentation that the laws of nature existed prior to the universe existing.

How do you know there wasn't a different state of nature as opposed to nothing? Nature, AS WE KNOW IT, didn't exist, but we have no idea, other than mere speculation, about anything beyond that. Maybe it was nothing, maybe it was another state of nature, maybe we are an offshoot of another universe, we just don't know.

 

[bhsmte]

How do you know there wasn't a different state of nature as opposed to nothing? Nature, AS WE KNOW IT, didn't exist, but we have no idea, other than mere speculation, about anything beyond that. Maybe it was nothing, maybe it was another state of nature, maybe we are an offshoot of another universe, we just don't know.

I think the moral of the story is; acknowledging we don't know just doesn't work well with religious beliefs.

Hence, the pretending to know and all the blanket assumptions you will see.

 

[Oncedeceived]

How do you know there wasn't a different state of nature as opposed to nothing? Nature, AS WE KNOW IT, didn't exist, but we have no idea, other than mere speculation, about anything beyond that. Maybe it was nothing, maybe it was another state of nature, maybe we are an offshoot of another universe, we just don't know.

What we know is that our universe didn't exist, no space, no energy, no matter, no time. That is what I claimed and what I've shown by scientists who are claiming the same thing.

 

[46AND2]

What we know is that our universe didn't exist, no space, no energy, no matter, no time. That is what I claimed and what I've shown by scientists who are claiming the same thing.

No, we don't know that. All we THEORIZE is a singularity which DID have energy and mass. You have shown the speculations of a couple of scientists who describe where they think the singularity came from, but it is not supported with data and is, at best, hypothesis, at this time.

 

[[serious]]

Let's see your mathematical model of the Creator, and then we will talk about it.

Once we have a mathematical model of before the big bang

 

[[serious]]

Well I believe that the natural laws are governed by God and He originated them. Concerning a purely naturalistic scenario, the laws of nature can not exist without the matter, energy, space and time...what would they be laws of?

Same thing that god would be the god of

 

[[serious]]

Why would the Fine Tuner have to be Fine Tuned?

Read the op.

For god to finely tune the universe, he must have tight specificationa for what he wanted. Those narrow desires must be at least as specific as the tuning of the universe.

 

[[serious]]

What we know is that our universe didn't exist, no space, no energy, no matter, no time. That is what I claimed and what I've shown by scientists who are claiming the same thing.

Our universe didnt exist before the big bang does NOT mean other natter, energy, etc didnt exist.

 

[[serious]]

Provide some scientific documentation that the laws of nature existed prior to the universe existing.

Same evidence God existed before the big bang.

 

[[serious]]

Exactly.

What is the value of pi when you look at a square?

 

[lesliedellow]

Once we have a mathematical model of before the big bang

We don't need one.

 

[Oncedeceived]

No, we don't know that. All we THEORIZE is a singularity which DID have energy and mass. You have shown the speculations of a couple of scientists who describe where they think the singularity came from, but it is not supported with data and is, at best, hypothesis, at this time.

Citation for the singularity having energy and Mass please.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Our universe didnt exist before the big bang does NOT mean other natter, energy, etc didnt exist.

It most certainly does mean that the space, energy, matter and time of this universe did not exist. Which is what I have said. What evidence have you for any matter, energy, space or time other than what we have in our universe?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Read the op.

For god to finely tune the universe, he must have tight specificationa for what he wanted. Those narrow desires must be at least as specific as the tuning of the universe.

I wrote the OP. So? Do we have to be fine tuned to design a factory or to design computer programs?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Same evidence God existed before the big bang.

That doesn't work. God is not a part of the universe. The Big Bang certainly is.

 

[Oncedeceived]

What is the value of pi when you look at a square?

Explain?

 

[46AND2]

Citation for the singularity having energy and Mass please.

Sorry, it has been a while since I studied the Big Bang. I was thinking the singularity existed at one planck time, but that is not exactly correct. General Relativity equations predict that the universe was, at one time, a singularity with infinite density and heat. However, prior to the point in time 1*10^-43 seconds after the beginning of the universe, classic physics models break down, and it is thought that quantum effects dominated, and no meaningful models can be extracted. There may not have even been a singularity, and there are models which describe something other than a singularity, even some which posit an infinite universe. But the point is that it is currently beyond our ability to describe what happened between the singularity (if there was one) and planck time=1.

At planck time=1, classic physics apply. Prior to that, we can't know. We don't know if there was nothing, or if there was something, or what that something could have been.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Whatever that something is that God is made of, it would seem to me that the something has to follow some set of rational and consistent rules, otherwise God would just disappear at random, or be unable to interact with anything at random times. That doesn't sound like the omnipotent type of deity that God is described as.

Yes, God has to be consistent with Himself. For example: God can not lie. God's scales of Justice are perfectly balanced. That is why Jesus had to go to Calvary to die in our place. We can know that God is absolute Righteousness and that we will ultimately receive absolute and perfect Justice in our life. I question if the end result justifies the means and what we go through to get there. But God does not seem to question that.

Unless of course you are absolutely sure that the ONLY absolute truth is that there is no absolute truth.
AT least my brother makes that claim.