SingularityOne

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*You are in the Eastern Orthodox forum - debate is not allowed in the forum. St. Justin Martyr’s (debate forum in our community) is for that purpose. Please go there for debate. I am looking for Eastern Orthodox answers on this post. Thank you.*

So, there is a discussion on Feminist Theory in my Marriage and Family Therapy class this coming Tuesday and I’m trying to prepare for it. I know that it’s an ideology (Marxist) rooted in rebellion and disobedience from God’s Law, however, the philosophical underpinnings are difficult for me to understand.

Are there any resources that can help one understand them so that one can refute the illogical nature of the theory of feminism?

Or... what is your understanding of the ideology and how would you disprove it?

Edit: Has anyone read this book (and would they recommend it, if so)?: https://www.amazon.com/More-Spirited-Than-Lions-Practical/dp/1928653049

Edit 2: I know that this is a reciprocal problem between men (men need to take more responsibility and love as Christ loves The Church unto death; provider + protector) and women (women need to submit and respect as The Church does to Christ) and both need to focus on their own role/duty that God has assigned them... but this philosophy (feminism) is falsehood and the truth needs to be revealed by a struggle towards truth.
 
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Brightmoon

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What’s so illogical about women asking to be treated with respect? Being told to be submissive is just asking to be mistreated and bullied . Modern girls won’t put up with that demeaning, disrespectful behavior and I’m glad for that .
 
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AlexDTX

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I may not be helpful, but off the top of my head feminism serves the globalist agenda of reducing the population as well as increasing the tax revenues. Women in the workforce doubles the taxes collected and careers displacing motherhood, or at least, diminishes the care of the children creates troubled youth for more laws to be imposed by governments.
 
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Brightmoon

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Nonsense, in America it’s the conservatives who want to force poor mothers into the work force and they want to cut childcare to boot .
 
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dzheremi

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Brightmoon: This was posted in the Eastern Orthodox forum, The Ancient Way, and not in its debate subforum (St. Justin Martyr's Corner), so can you please respect the rules of this forum as a confessional forum and not engage in arguments with the OP and with other non-Eastern Orthodox visitors about the general thread topic? This really isn't the place to be doing that. Thank you.

(SingularityOne: Maybe add a *You are in the Eastern Orthodox forum* tag? Politically sensitive issues like this are bound to draw people who might not realize where they are posting.)
 
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LaSorcia

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I know that it’s an ideology (Marxist) rooted in rebellion and disobedience from God’s Law,
Feminist thought was extant long before Marx was even born, and not all feminist ideology is what you see portrayed in the contemporary media.
 
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Sparagmos

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*You are in the Eastern Orthodox forum - debate is not allowed in the forum. St. Justin Martyr’s (debate forum in our community) is for that purpose. Please go there for debate. I am looking for Eastern Orthodox answers on this post. Thank you.*

So, there is a discussion on Feminist Theory in my Marriage and Family Therapy class this coming Tuesday and I’m trying to prepare for it. I know that it’s an ideology (Marxist) rooted in rebellion and disobedience from God’s Law, however, the philosophical underpinnings are difficult for me to understand.

Are there any resources that can help one understand them so that one can refute the illogical nature of the theory of feminism?

Or... what is your understanding of the ideology and how would you disprove it?

Edit: Has anyone read this book (and would they recommend it, if so)?: https://www.amazon.com/More-Spirited-Than-Lions-Practical/dp/1928653049

Edit 2: I know that this is a reciprocal problem between men (men need to take more responsibility and love as Christ loves The Church unto death; provider + protector) and women (women need to submit and respect as The Church does to Christ) and both need to focus on their own role/duty that God has assigned them... but this philosophy (feminism) is falsehood and the truth needs to be revealed by a struggle towards truth.
I would go back in history and read some of the earliest writings on women’s rights that you can find. Feminism was around ages before it was given that label.
 
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SingularityOne

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Can you summarize what you mean by "the theory of feminism"?

Essentially, “there is a power imbalance between men and women and women are oppressed by men. They hold that women are the same as men in their nature, so they deserve the same rights as men in the social realm. There is also the fact that they think gender is a social construct that was used to suppress women.”

There’s more to it, but that’s the core from what I have read so far.
 
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rusmeister

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The answer is now so simple for me I could write a sentence or a book. Such things can be stated extremely simply - but then people have a thousand and one objections requiring lots of words.

The answer to everything is rebellion and pride. The essence of the Fall, the sin of Lucifer. We will not obey, obedience is the dirty word of our time. Thus, fear of “oppression”, talking about “freedom”, “emancipation”, “rights”, etc. Our rights are eternal damnation. We should want the Bleeding Mercy, as Lewis put it in “The Great Divorce”.

Feminism is all about that rebellion and pride. If it is anything beyond ending specific instances of actual oppression, it is feminism, and it is of the devil. Anything that is about simple justice is not feminism. Anything that is about lifting up women over men in any sense of power or authority, as opposed to stopping a man from beating, hurting or violating a woman, (which is righteous anger at evil, not feminism), is that spirit that seeks to cast away obedience, assert the independence that is of this world, an independence from God as well as man. We don’t want to commit obedience.

All of the talk casting men and women as competitors or enemies, rather than as beings who must cooperate and help each other, both to survive as best we can in this world, and to attain the Kingdom of Heaven, is feminism. The antidote to pride is humility, and the antidote to rebellion is obedience. And we don’t want to hear that, or more accurately, to be humble and obedient. Christ was crucified for a reason, even if it was a devilish reason.

As to the rest, Chesterton helped me see a lot of the modern nonsense for the nonsense it is. Many are no longer capable of reading him, which is a pity, and our fault, not his. But this excerpt seems highly relevant:

As it is, the modern clerk or secretary exhausts herself to put one thing straight in the ledger and then goes home to put everything straight in the house.

This condition (described by some as emancipated) is at least the reverse of my ideal. I would give woman, not more rights, but more privileges. Instead of sending her to seek such freedom as notoriously prevails in banks and factories, I would design specially a house in which she can be free. And with that we come to the last point of all; the point at which we can perceive the needs of women, like the rights of men, stopped and falsified by something which it is the object of this book to expose.

The Feminist (which means, I think, one who dislikes the chief feminine characteristics) has heard my loose monologue, bursting all the time with one pent-up protest. At this point he will break out and say, "But what are we to do? There is modern commerce and its clerks; there is the modern family with its unmarried daughters; specialism is expected everywhere; female thrift and conscientiousness are demanded and supplied. What does it matter whether we should in the abstract prefer the old human and housekeeping woman; we might prefer the Garden of Eden. But since women have trades they ought to have trades unions. Since women work in factories, they ought to vote on factory-acts. If they are unmarried they must be commercial; if they are commercial they must be political. We must have new rules for a new world-- even if it be not a better one." I said to a Feminist once: "The question is not whether women are good enough for votes: it is whether votes are good enough for women." He only answered: "Ah, you go and say that to the women chain-makers on Cradley Heath."

Now this is the attitude which I attack. It is the huge heresy of Precedent. It is the view that because we have got into a mess we must grow messier to suit it; that because we have taken a wrong turn some time ago we must go forward and not backwards; that because we have lost our way we must lose our map also; and because we have missed our ideal, we must forget it. "There are numbers of excellent people who do not think votes unfeminine; and there may be enthusiasts for our beautiful modern industry who do not think factories unfeminine. But if these things are unfeminine it is no answer to say that they fit into each other. I am not satisfied with the statement that my daughter must have unwomanly powers because she has unwomanly wrongs. Industrial soot and political printer's ink are two blacks which do not make a white. Most of the Feminists would probably agree with me that womanhood is under shameful tyranny in the shops and mills. But I want to destroy the tyranny. They want to destroy womanhood. That is the only difference.

Whether we can recover the clear vision of woman as a tower with many windows, the fixed eternal feminine from which her sons, the specialists, go forth; whether we can preserve the tradition of a central thing which is even more human than democracy and even more practical than politics; whether, in word, it is possible to re-establish the family, freed from the filthy cynicism and cruelty of the commercial epoch, I shall discuss in the last section of this book. But meanwhile do not talk to me about the poor chain-makers on Cradley Heath. I know all about them and what they are doing. They are engaged in a very wide-spread and flourishing industry of the present age. They are making chains.”

“What’s Wrong With the World”
 
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nicholas123

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I know you're good-hearted, but I recommend spending your energy somewhere else.
Specially if you're studying Law or Engineering and this is an obligatory course. Only if you're doing Philosophy you'd be justified in wasting so much energy on it. Each to their gifts, as says St. Paul.
 
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Not David

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*You are in the Eastern Orthodox forum - debate is not allowed in the forum. St. Justin Martyr’s (debate forum in our community) is for that purpose. Please go there for debate. I am looking for Eastern Orthodox answers on this post. Thank you.*

So, there is a discussion on Feminist Theory in my Marriage and Family Therapy class this coming Tuesday and I’m trying to prepare for it. I know that it’s an ideology (Marxist) rooted in rebellion and disobedience from God’s Law, however, the philosophical underpinnings are difficult for me to understand.

Are there any resources that can help one understand them so that one can refute the illogical nature of the theory of feminism?

Or... what is your understanding of the ideology and how would you disprove it?

Edit: Has anyone read this book (and would they recommend it, if so)?: https://www.amazon.com/More-Spirited-Than-Lions-Practical/dp/1928653049

Edit 2: I know that this is a reciprocal problem between men (men need to take more responsibility and love as Christ loves The Church unto death; provider + protector) and women (women need to submit and respect as The Church does to Christ) and both need to focus on their own role/duty that God has assigned them... but this philosophy (feminism) is falsehood and the truth needs to be revealed by a struggle towards truth.
Maybe you could try to check how it has affected the social attitude of both men and women.
 
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SingularityOne

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The answer is now so simple for me I could write a sentence or a book. Such things can be stated extremely simply - but then people have a thousand and one objections requiring lots of words.

The answer to everything is rebellion and pride. The essence of the Fall, the sin of Lucifer. We will not obey, obedience is the dirty word of our time. Thus, fear of “oppression”, talking about “freedom”, “emancipation”, “rights”, etc. Our rights are eternal damnation. We should want the Bleeding Mercy, as Lewis put it in “The Great Divorce”.

Feminism is all about that rebellion and pride. If it is anything beyond ending specific instances of actual oppression, it is feminism, and it is of the devil. Anything that is about simple justice is not feminism. Anything that is about lifting up women over men in any sense of power or authority, as opposed to stopping a man from beating, hurting or violating a woman, (which is righteous anger at evil, not feminism), is that spirit that seeks to cast away obedience, assert the independence that is of this world, an independence from God as well as man. We don’t want to commit obedience.

All of the talk casting men and women as competitors or enemies, rather than as beings who must cooperate and help each other, both to survive as best we can in this world, and to attain the Kingdom of Heaven, is feminism. The antidote to pride is humility, and the antidote to rebellion is obedience. And we don’t want to hear that, or more accurately, to be humble and obedient. Christ was crucified for a reason, even if it was a devilish reason.

As to the rest, Chesterton helped me see a lot of the modern nonsense for the nonsense it is. Many are no longer capable of reading him, which is a pity, and our fault, not his. But this excerpt seems highly relevant:

As it is, the modern clerk or secretary exhausts herself to put one thing straight in the ledger and then goes home to put everything straight in the house.

This condition (described by some as emancipated) is at least the reverse of my ideal. I would give woman, not more rights, but more privileges. Instead of sending her to seek such freedom as notoriously prevails in banks and factories, I would design specially a house in which she can be free. And with that we come to the last point of all; the point at which we can perceive the needs of women, like the rights of men, stopped and falsified by something which it is the object of this book to expose.

The Feminist (which means, I think, one who dislikes the chief feminine characteristics) has heard my loose monologue, bursting all the time with one pent-up protest. At this point he will break out and say, "But what are we to do? There is modern commerce and its clerks; there is the modern family with its unmarried daughters; specialism is expected everywhere; female thrift and conscientiousness are demanded and supplied. What does it matter whether we should in the abstract prefer the old human and housekeeping woman; we might prefer the Garden of Eden. But since women have trades they ought to have trades unions. Since women work in factories, they ought to vote on factory-acts. If they are unmarried they must be commercial; if they are commercial they must be political. We must have new rules for a new world-- even if it be not a better one." I said to a Feminist once: "The question is not whether women are good enough for votes: it is whether votes are good enough for women." He only answered: "Ah, you go and say that to the women chain-makers on Cradley Heath."

Now this is the attitude which I attack. It is the huge heresy of Precedent. It is the view that because we have got into a mess we must grow messier to suit it; that because we have taken a wrong turn some time ago we must go forward and not backwards; that because we have lost our way we must lose our map also; and because we have missed our ideal, we must forget it. "There are numbers of excellent people who do not think votes unfeminine; and there may be enthusiasts for our beautiful modern industry who do not think factories unfeminine. But if these things are unfeminine it is no answer to say that they fit into each other. I am not satisfied with the statement that my daughter must have unwomanly powers because she has unwomanly wrongs. Industrial soot and political printer's ink are two blacks which do not make a white. Most of the Feminists would probably agree with me that womanhood is under shameful tyranny in the shops and mills. But I want to destroy the tyranny. They want to destroy womanhood. That is the only difference.

Whether we can recover the clear vision of woman as a tower with many windows, the fixed eternal feminine from which her sons, the specialists, go forth; whether we can preserve the tradition of a central thing which is even more human than democracy and even more practical than politics; whether, in word, it is possible to re-establish the family, freed from the filthy cynicism and cruelty of the commercial epoch, I shall discuss in the last section of this book. But meanwhile do not talk to me about the poor chain-makers on Cradley Heath. I know all about them and what they are doing. They are engaged in a very wide-spread and flourishing industry of the present age. They are making chains.”

“What’s Wrong With the World”

So, essentially, it’s a war on the feminine nature, and characteristics that are a phenotype off that genotype, itself. I couldn’t fully understand his whole argument, but I’ll have to re-read it again to fully digest this excerpt more. Thank you! Very helpful. What do you take most away from this excerpt after reading the entire book?
 
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SingularityOne

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I know you're good-hearted, but I recommend spending your energy somewhere else.
Specially if you're studying Law or Engineering and this is an obligatory course. Only if you're doing Philosophy you'd be justified in wasting so much energy on it. Each to their gifts, as says St. Paul.
I’m studying marriage and family therapy in a masters program.
 
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SingularityOne

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Can you talk about tangential topics, such as divorce? Something that can be better measured might help you get a better message across.

Yes. How would that connect to feminism though?
 
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nicholas123

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Yes. How would that connect to feminism though?
It was merely an example, though their view on it and comparing many divorce statistics after each political wave wouldn't be such a terrible project. I had to do similar classes and my choice was to make more of a statistical presentation on the topics that I disagreed so fundamentally rather than try to dismantle their system from their presuppositions. Even God resorts to indication and nuance when necessary.
 
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SingularityOne

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It was merely an example, though their view on it and comparing many divorce statistics after each political wave wouldn't be such a terrible project. I had to do similar classes and my choice was to make more of a statistical presentation on the topics that I disagreed so fundamentally rather than try to dismantle their system from their presuppositions. Even God resorts to indication and nuance when necessary.
So, mainly stating the facts rather than raising the philosophical foundation of the ideology? I’m trying to figure out the difference between those two actions mainly.
 
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Essentially, “there is a power imbalance between men and women and women are oppressed by men. They hold that women are the same as men in their nature, so they deserve the same rights as men in the social realm. There is also the fact that they think gender is a social construct that was used to suppress women.”

There’s more to it, but that’s the core from what I have read so far.

So are they saying socio-economic developments play no role in the shifting roles of men and women?
Do they believe when women lived in an agrarian society in the 1500's, they could have still been doing yoga for leisure and sipping coffee at starbucks while they waited for the wealthy landowner's son to marry them and not the peasant working 12 hours a day in the field?
 
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